OBT Forum

Who or what are free guilds smells like bandit caste or society to me

TLDR - A mix of lower castes, Scientists, Merchants, Labourers etc that serve ALL the Clans not just one Clan but rather serve their society as a whole.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Free_Guilds


Also one of the big prizes of the ilClanship

During the Grand Kurultai's discussions for the invasion of the Inner Sphere, Elias Crichell of the Jade Falcon Clan suggested that whichever Clan conquered Terra would also take control of the Free Guilds. This would provide the victorious "ilClan" with unprecedented resources and manpower. His proposal was accepted enthusiastically by every Clan involved.[1]

Thanks for the thoughts marauder648. Hope to hear more input from everyone regarding these designs. I will get back to posting more specifics after judging the Hell Cat contest later today hopefully but for now some specific responses on your comments.

I'm not sure of the Clans would build such super-tanker esque ships like the Behemoth or Mammoth, the Behemoth is probably too inflexible due to her inability to land on a world, and any Behemoths in Clan service would probably instead be linked to other facilities to make orbital factories etc.  The Mammoth might be around still but purely in the hands of the Free Guilds and instead of going for a Colossus IIC Freighter, how about something smaller like a Clan version of the Cargomaster/Cargoking

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Cargoking

Which they'd probably have somewhere on records.

I figured the Behemoth IIC would still be useful to the Free Guilds, Ghost Bear (for their asteroid mining operations), Snow Raven (naval operations), and perhaps Diamond Shark (commerce). There are other small mentions of Clan space industry like the Burrock/Star Adder settlement of Krakau in the Paxon system but these seem the exception and not the rule. However I was thinking that these giant space bound craft would be almost uniquely Free Guild in nature given their space bound nature in my vision. They would be useful to the Invading Clans and an enhanced logistical system after the Quicksilver Program.

The Mammoth IIC would be more Clan style given its interplanetary capability and probably the largest craft most Merchant Caste possess other than jumpships of course.

I went with the Colossus IIC Freighter over the Cargomaster/CargoKing for two reasons. One and perhaps the biggest is the likely existing presence of the Colossus on the original Exodus. Two, the Colossus design could be militarized by the Clans for use as a major Transport as it was originally. However I am open to your opinions.

It can carry more than the Mule, has less crew and is a more modern and better laid out design and the Clans (apparently) love their efficiency so this might make sense.  The Mule would also be around and I could see some changes, again de-weaponized and given over to the Free Guilds but even de-weaponized you're only adding a few score of tons to the cargo space (40 tons worth of weapons and you could strip out more heatsinks to add a bit more and upgrade the hull plating to Ferro-Aluminium) at most.

I do agree and have the Mule IIC down in Heavy Metal Aero. Just have to post it. Basically it is the normal Merchant Caste transport not only for the Guild but the rest of the Clans as well.

The need for a Tug is a definate thing, base it on the Elephant as this would be the one the Clans have in their database but don't make her also the combined arms transport that the 'phant was.  These would be somewhat armed, and I would assume that they would be attached to any surviving YardShips the Clans have (IIRC the Lum Yard was built around a pair of Newgrange class YardShips). 

I would think that the Exodus would have included some Tug Dropships as well as a few Newgranges. The Clydesdale Tug (15,000 tons) is just a deweaponized build based on these Tugs that the Free Guild uses extensively and perhaps other merchant castes. IIC Tugs may also be around and part of Clan fleets like Snow with weapons perhaps as part of a Coast Guard Solahma force.

I didn't know the Lum Yard was built around a pair of Newgranges, could you please cite that info marauder648. I was think that the Guild might have at least one of these vessels still mobile and deweaponized of course for use but again and am opened to opinions.

The idea of an Exodus Liner makes sense, basically its a ship built to carry large numbers of Lower caste from system to system. This would be ideal in a situation where the Clans were willing to expand their territories (like the worlds they found on the exodus road etc) but here they would just be used as personnel transports, probably rather rare though and basic in the extreme, little more than a cattle cart. 

Thanks, yes this one I completed and you can see on this thread. It is hardly a luxury liner, very spartan people mover.

I did a quick and Dirty Mammoth IIC without any armament and using Ferro-Aluminium, SI and everything else is identical to the Mammoth and she's got a cargo capacity of 38,652 tons vs the standard Mammoths 37,248.5 tons of cargo, so an increase of 1,403.5 tons.  I was tempted to put another small craft in there but left it as 4. 

really this ship would probably be the upper end of the Clans cargo ships, and the exclusive property of the Free Guilds with those in Clan service probably being rare or sitting on the ground and converted into something like housing or a production plant or something (the Horses did this OTL when they moved into the Inner Sphere making 'tent cities' of landed DropShips clustered together with various craft converted into different roles, housing production etc).

Yeah I have the Mammoth IIC on HMA just have to detail it.

Who or what are free guilds smells like bandit caste or society to me

Thanks marauder648 for the known canon info on the Free Guilds. The long and short for the Free Guilds, since some do not use links, is they are basically Spacers according to my vision. With the blurbs indicating known facts from the Jade Falcon Sourcebook and Clans Warriors of Kerensky I extrapolated that the Guild were like Belters mentioned in Interstellar Player 2 (link below).

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Jihad_Conspiracies:_Interstellar_Players_2

Leaving on the original Exodus (a long trip and so some may have become accustomed to life in space while others could indeed be Belters who left with Kerensky) these citizens of the stars settled among the Pentagon Worlds and Strana Mechty much like the terrestrial bound denizens we have heard so much about. During the Second Exodus they helped Nicholas Kerensky escape the growing chaos among the Pentagon thanks to their natural space lift capabilities. They provided his followers and their equipment who would become the Clans with ample means of rapid escape from the disintegration. For this Nicholas allowed them to remain 'free' of the terrestrial bound Clans but they would be required to adopt his ways. Essentially becoming a Clan without warriors whose space bound populace is divided into four castes policed by Guild Keshik which is essentially a Solahma force drawn from all the Clans. The Guild Council is made up of their four Caste Leaders and is essentially their Clan Council while the Guildmaster is essentially their Khan. Aloof and confined to the Strana Mechty system where they are closely monitored by all the Clans they have thrived much like the Terran Belters in Interstellar Players 2.

I still have to figure their exact population but I imagine it is smaller than any Clan. However in my universe with Quicksilver they become more of a precence than in canon where they were forgotten about and usually explained away as an error. I could simply write them off in the Society Rebellion as perhaps these rogue scientists were present and the Clans overreacted in the way they actually did effectively annihilating the Guilds and absorbing them once and for all into Clan society. Refusing to mention them ever again for their percieved participation in the would be revolution where they were used by the Society to further their own goals. The Clan crackdown was brutal in canon resulting in the death of most of the scientist caste in the homeworlds even though they didn't directly have anything to do with the Society. So very plausibly again the Guild was a victim of this backlash never to be mentioned again.

Anyway here for me they are part of my vision for the Clans and their ships/equipment are not weaponized (forbidden from carrying weapons whatsoever) as they are strictly civilians.

If they are used as freighters then they would be the property of the Free Guilds and ONLY them, with an agreement on all Clans not to do any Trials of Possession for such massive ships as they are a strategic CLAN resource. 

If the Clans are kind of like a mixture of Belters and a kind of OmniCaste then they'd probably have the few Behemoths in service that the Clans have, the rest having been scrapped or turned into something 'more useful' by the Clans.

I always figured that the Clans are so different from the Free Guilds in so many ways (aloof attitude, no warriors, long lived, space based rather than planet bound) that much of what the Guild possesses is simply overlooked by the Clans but I could see Nicholas decreeing that their property is a strategic resource belonging to the Clans as a whole. This makes a large degree of sense but I still see the Guild as being confined to the Strana Mechty system which is the property of all the Clans. Venturing outside this area could very well bring them into conflict with a Clan or two. I am still writing their history if you'd like to help I could use a hand.

RE Lum's yards being built around a Newgrange or two, IIRC I saw that in DragonCat's time line so i've no idea if its canon or not but to built a yard on the scale of Lum with multiple slips etc you'd probably use a Newgrange as a good starting point and then build up around her with her acting as a drydock and command centre.

i'd say the Ravens would definately have tugs, they'd need them for the Lum yards, other naval clans would probably have a few Stars of them but the ravens would have the most, probably some in an armed configuration too. 

How many Newgranges do you think accompanied the Exodus?

As I said I was planning on having a couple of Newgranges with the Free Guilds, disarmed of course but do you think that makes sense or is a good idea?

I still have to go over large space facilities of the Clans but your right they'd probably have a few Tugs - so I geuss whatever that design would be would just be disarmed if the Guilds possessed them.

I'd say that the Mammoth IIC or what ever it gets renamed as would be the largest 'common' heavy freighter in service with the Clans and have the Cargoking IIC (give it a more suitable name) as their more standard freighter.

So you don't like the Colossus idea? The CargoKhan obviously for the Clans but seriously would they even have the design on hand? None left on the Exodus, right?

I'd say the Mule IIC is the most common frieghter with the Mammoth IIC being the largest used by the Clan merchant caste. This way we could keep the Behemoth IIC as a Free Guild asset almost exclusively.

I doubt Lum is Newgranges its stated thats its the only shipyard capable of producing warships consistently. That sounds more permanent. Plus it made the Nightlord way to huge a vessel for them. Clans definitely have some but i wouldn't think a clan would allow such a valuable resource to not be controlled by a clan. Some are starving for resources to maintain existing ships as it is

Well if you read Operation Klondike there are many spacer cultures which spring up around the Pentagon Worlds after Nicholas departs and they frequently put ships together creating permanent stations as centers of life among the stars. Fasa would be the single biggest settlement example I can think of, read up on the Pentagon Run in Operation Klondike it details these accommodations.

I think you are confusing Faslane Yardships with the Newgrange Yardship as well. Newgranges were a retcon addition which make even less sense given the small number of warship stance taken by TPTB. They are larger than a McKenna and capable of docking one for repair.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Newgrange

200 were built during the Star League era but only 45 remained after the Amaris Coup and Kerensky's Exodus. Since the SLDF took the largest warship fleet with them I could certainly imagine up to fifty departing with the General. Still leave 100 plus to get destroyed during the Coup or lost to other phenomenon.

But you are right perhaps they are too valuable for the Free Guilds, then again if we say they are the strategic reserve fleet of the Clans maybe. But if you were Snow Raven would you trust them not to lose control of these assets to others??

Really anxious to keep this conversation going but still working on the Hell Cat review. Sorry about my lack of responses today on this great topic.

What I mean is they used a Newgrage as the core, the starting point. and they built the station and yard up around it, using a decommissioned Newgrange as the starting point to built the Lum yards.

Imagine if they had started with the Newgrange and then built up and around her to add dry and 'wet' docks, as well as other facilities etc, but it all started with the central core of the newgrange that's probably buried under the changes made and the yard that's built around her save her drydock and her command and control facilities/reactors.

If Lum was something like this

Then the Newgrage would be like the central core or one of the side arms or something.  That's how I kinda picture it anyhow, she's not the main yard, but the Ravens built the yards up around her.

We don't know what the Lum yards looked like (or something like the Titan yards which were bigger) but it could be something like Scorpion yards from BSG

With them being a huge sprawling thing built up and out, and buried somewhere in there could be a Newgrange or two they built the yards up and around.

You could very well be right. Nice visuals BTW, let me ask you a question concerning the Newgranges. Do you think General Kerensky like Cortez burned these ships to prevent his army from returning piecemeal or otherwise? I mean these ships could have well been used to kick start space industry around the Pentagon Worlds and one or two could resupply a small fleet. So controlling or destroying them is a powerful message saying we are here and going no where else.

The Clans would also likely be strict about these vessels as they give a powerful leg up to any Clan who wishes to use them. Also an interesting blurb I've been thinking about from the Mongoose Absorption during which the Smoke Jaguar fleet was badly hurt. The Grand Council allowed them to dip back into Naval Caches in order to restore their ships after losing a McKenna. Interesting as it means the Council tightly controls mothballed ships which are still out there and could it be the Newgranges were mandatorily on that list.

Also do you think Snow Raven seized most of them to build the Lum Yards and monopolize naval operations?

And I like your idea for the Free Guilds, confined by law to have no 'military' equipment, and confined within the SM System although you can bet that their facilities have some weapons, they don't want any Bandits to try anything. But then again to try anything in Strana Mechty would probably be suicidal.  If they do venture out of the SM system its ONLY at the behest and 'request' (really an order) of the IlKhan which they can turn down at the risk of irking the IlKhan and so no ilKhan since Nickyboy has done so. 

So instead they can 'loan' their ships out to a Clan, and its up to that Clan to escort and protect them from any Trial, because if they are lost, even in a Trial, then the Guilders will expect to be repaid in kind "You lost two Mules, you will give us two Mules." kind of thing.

Great thoughts and it sounds like the kind of business dealings the Guild would be involved in after the canon Falcon blurb. If they do have weaponry it would be under the control of the Guild Keshik.

I wonder if most of the Free Guilds is composed of Merchants rather than Laborers like the Clans? Would fit their name as well. Maybe, maybe not.

We don't know how many Newgranges escaped with Kerensky, but with 200 built and 45 left in the Inner Sphere, I'd say there was probably at least 60  - 80 of them who went with the General.  Now how many of them survived the Pentagon civil war is questionable, but probably not that many until Special K came along with the Clans and brought 'order'.  But the Civil war was unkind to these hugs ships, that probably would have found new use as converted orbital habitats and the like rather than repairing warships.  So say at best 20 survived, with say...6 - 8 under the Guilds either over Strana Mechty itself or in system, the rest divvied out to the clans where they were either put to use or mothballed.

Also I find it impossible that there's no other type of Yardship so if there was any other class, there might be some of those still around that did survive would probably be smaller and less capable than a Newgrange class and thus might find use with less naval minded Clans.

Actually Irose and I have a warship count of the Exodus fleet some where. We know that the total Exodus Fleet number around 400 warships, I will check the exact numbers but that would reduce the amount of Newgranges with the SLDF unless you say they aren't warships. An argument can be made. I am going to look it up when I get a chance. Should add to the discussion.

RE Colossus and CargoKhan, the Colossus is a military dropship and not many survived the fighting in the Pentagon Civil war, but why would you need so huge a transport dropship when you've got mules etc.  The Cargoking was brand new at the end of the Star League and the Clans probably have its plans somewhere, it was built for the SLDF so someone's probably got the plans.

Yeah I think I will drop the Colossus Freighter from my plans but I am still not sure we need the 'CargoKhan'. If it does get built it would likely be brand new.

With regards to who actually 'owns' the surviving Newgranges, I'd say that some are spread amongst the Clans.

Ravens - 1 used to kickstart the Lum yard, another in service or mothballs as a standard vessel
Star Adder - 1 ship
Wolves - 1 ship in Mothballs as Kerensky's chosen and faves they get a shiny toy that is now in orbit round a distant star slowly gathering dust.
Sharks have one, Bears one etc etc

Wouldn't we have already have seen these ships if the Clans actually had access to them already? One for each Clan is kind of fair but I just don't see any here. Do the Clans have any by Operation Revival??

but the majority of them would be in the Strana Mechty system for use by ALL the Clans as neutral ground, probably overseen by the Ebon Keshik who will crack down HARD on any Warriors doing shenanigans aboard them because they are neutral ground and no fighting is allowed.  One such ship in a disarmed and coreless state could even operate as the Free Guilds 'Capital' so to speak.

Here is where I agree with you. An attack upon the Guilds is an attack upon the Clans as a whole. Perhaps we can add an incident to their history which would reinforce/illustrate this point. Doesn't have to involve any Newgranges just an attack upon the Guild which is responded to with brutality by the Clans.

I wouldn't think free guild is mostly merchants id say technicians. Currency is strictly controlled in clans if it was a free society it would make sense but not for clans.

And no way did kerensky pull a cortez or hed have scrapped his entire fleet not a few repair ships.

I thnk most of them survived initially but were mostly converted later into permanent or semipermanent shipyards.