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Author Topic: Quicksilver Dropships  (Read 37806 times)

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marauder648

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #60 on: September 05, 2018, 03:34:06 AM »

And there would also be the need for a smaller Dropper capable of carrying say a Binary or a Nova Binary into action and yeah using a dedicated carrier for fighters makes sense, t he SLDF did it so the lets keep with that, Great Father would be happy!
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Bradshaw

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #61 on: September 05, 2018, 05:42:23 AM »

As seen with Nicholas changing Star League organization to the new clan structure he must have felt differently about traditional things who knows if he may have changed more if not dieing vs widowmaker.


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marauder648

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #62 on: September 05, 2018, 05:57:16 AM »

Well considering that Special K was just a wee bit fruity in the head to put it mildly, god knows :s
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Bradshaw

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #63 on: September 05, 2018, 08:55:03 AM »

Wouldn't be shocked if he did commit fratricide.

Was looking at Carrier role Dropship. Went to look at Cloud Cobra the quote unquote leaders of Aerospace in the Clans. Their standard Cluster consists of a whopping 90 fighters

Quote
"The backbone of the Cobra's Touman, most Coil Clusters consist of three Trinaries of Aerospace Fighters"


There is no singular dropship that could do that without being in the 20k + range. So you're talking at least two Dropships to carry that more than likely three.

I saw conflicting tonnage on Vengeance as is listed on Sarna at 10000 and on MeckLab at a little over 11k

Helix (3056)
Code: [Select]
Base Tech Level: Standard (Clan)
Level          Era
-------------------
Experimental    - 
Advanced      3056+
Standard        - 
Tech Rating: F/X-X-E-E

Weight: 10000 tons
BV: 7,413
Cost: 2,315,721,600 C-bills
Source: TRO 3057R - Clan Invasion

Movement: 4/6
Heat Sinks: 148 [296]
Fuel Points: 10500/12000 (400.0 tons)
Tons Per Burn Day: 1.84

Structural Integrity: 15
Armor: 1068 (Ferro-Aluminum)
            Armor 
-------------------
Nose          321 
Left Side     267 
Right Side    267 
Aft           213 

Weapons                          Loc  Heat 
--------------------------------------------
AMS Bay                          NOS    2   
Anti-Missile System                         
Anti-Missile System                         
Anti-Missile System Ammo [Clan]  144       
AMS Bay                           LS    2   
Anti-Missile System                         
Anti-Missile System                         
Anti-Missile System Ammo [Clan]  144       
AMS Bay                           RS    2   
Anti-Missile System                         
Anti-Missile System                         
Anti-Missile System Ammo [Clan]  144       
AMS Bay                          AFT    2   
Anti-Missile System                         
Anti-Missile System                         
Anti-Missile System Ammo [Clan]  144       
Laser Bay                        NOS   48   
ER Large Laser                             
ER Large Laser                             
ER Large Laser                             
ER Large Laser                             
Laser Bay                         LS   48   
ER Large Laser                             
ER Large Laser                             
ER Large Laser                             
ER Large Laser                             
Laser Bay                         RS   48   
ER Large Laser                             
ER Large Laser                             
ER Large Laser                             
ER Large Laser                             
Laser Bay                        AFT   48   
ER Large Laser                             
ER Large Laser                             
ER Large Laser                             
ER Large Laser                             
LBX AC Bay                       NOS    2   
LB 5-X AC                                   
LB 5-X AC                                   
LB 5-X Cluster Ammo              400       
LBX AC Bay                        LS    2   
LB 5-X AC                                   
LB 5-X AC                                   
LB 5-X Cluster Ammo              400       
LBX AC Bay                        RS    2   
LB 5-X AC                                   
LB 5-X AC                                   
LB 5-X Cluster Ammo              400       
LBX AC Bay                       AFT    2   
LB 5-X AC                                   
LB 5-X AC                                   
LB 5-X Cluster Ammo              400       


Equipment                         Loc 
---------------------------------------
Naval Comm-Scanner Suite (Small)  NOS 

Carrying Capacity
-----------------
Aerospace Fighter (6 doors) - 30 units (2 recovery open)
Small Craft (2 doors) - 2 units (2 recovery open)
Cargo Space (0 doors) - 871 tons

Crew                 
----------------------
Officers             3
Enlisted/Non-rated   5
Gunners              6
Bay Personnel       70


« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 10:02:20 AM by Bradshaw »
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marauder648

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #64 on: September 05, 2018, 10:26:30 AM »

I like the Helix, very very nice!
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Bradshaw

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #65 on: September 05, 2018, 01:37:22 PM »

Had to play on the coil name of clusters fit perfectly
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Takiro

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #66 on: September 06, 2018, 04:39:42 PM »

The Vengeance IIC is on the agenda already as you can see. I like the ship name Helix for one of these craft.

Any known canon dropship construction facilities discovered?
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Bradshaw

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #67 on: September 06, 2018, 05:07:33 PM »

Ill look but got a lot of family coming in this weekend for vinnys memorial on Saturday.

First week of the semester kept me from working on that other project for you
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Takiro

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #68 on: September 06, 2018, 05:22:03 PM »

No problem bud, I'll see what I can find and post it for discussion. ;)
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Takiro

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #69 on: September 07, 2018, 08:53:09 PM »

Ok guys I have looked through sarna.net aka BattleTechwiki but there really isn't much there about Dropship construction facilities. Really there are only two (Lum and Marshall) which caused me to go through TRO3057R to look up each Clan Dropship design (10 in all). Luckily the fluff there really outlines exactly where everything is made. Here is the list below;

Quote
Design      Mass      Intro   Shipyards
Broadsword   1,900 tons   2979   Marshall Orbital Yards
Confederate   1,900 tons   2602   [Star League built Clan refit, ?]       
Noruff      1,900 tons   3056   Marshall Orbital Yards
Sassanid   3,000 tons   2875   Babylon L-5 Yards
Union-C   4,700 tons   2829   Strana Mechty (new shipyards)
Carrier      5,000 tons   2882   Rumiko on Lum (Crest Foundries, ?)
Lion      7,300 tons   2595   [Star League built Clan refit]
Miraborg   9,800 tons   3053   Huntress Yards
Overlord-C   11,600 tons   2818   Strana Mechty
Titan-C   12,000 tons   2647   [Star League built Clan refit, ?]

So to break it down there appears to be three designs (Confederate, Lion, Titan) which appear to be Star League built and refit by the Clans. While this is not certain about the Confederate or Titan it is absolutely stated in the text that no new Lions have been built just existing craft upgraded by the Clans. This does make a great deal of sense and lays an excellent foundation for the Free Guilds restoration program which helps the Clans refurbish existing designs.

Also on the topic of the Free Guilds there are two dropships (Union and Overlord) which confirm the fact that there is a shipyard (albeit a small one) orbiting Strana Mechty. Again it makes sense to me and given the known territorial divide of the Clan capital world (each Clan owns an equal share) it does lay the foundation for the Free Guilds as I have laid them out. Who else would you trust with these presumably joint facilities? Perhaps the Guild assembled these facilities thanks to their existing space infrastructure.

The Marshall Orbital Yards have an interesting history which know thanks to its first appearance in Bloodright (FASA1666). The Broadsword (1,850 tons) was developed by Clan Sea Fox shortly before it changed its name to Diamond Shark. While all Clans make use of this dropship Steel Viper has the most currently thanks to a Trial of Possession for the factory on Marshall. The Vipers are currently building the Noruff (1,900 tons) which maybe we can tweak a bit. Their ownership of this facility and their rivalry with the Snow Ravens produced an idea in me that had them building a number of assault designs. Please not that the dropships produced here are small in size perhaps denoting limitations in the facilities or a ceiling mass of around 2k tons which can’t be exceeded.

Rumiko on Lum or Crest Foundries as Battletechwiki states produces the Carrier class Dropship for the Snow Ravens who supply it to the rest of the Clans for a price. I use the word or because I am not sure if Crest Foundries equals Rumiko on Lum. Will have to do more research and see if there is a difference between facilities which there indeed maybe. Whatever the finding there we also most presume that the Naval Clan that the Ravens are likely try to hold onto production rights for any large craft. In my view this arena is their monopoly and they will try just about anything to keep it intact. So producing new waves of dropships for Operation Restoration would somehow have to placate them. Also I was thinking that the Ravens might have the closest ties to the Free Guilds but would naval expansion for the Clans threaten this?

The Huntress Yards are specifically sited in the launching of the Miraborg in 3053 which was originally named the Charybdis. This looks like it is a new construction facility or more precisely a dockyard now slated for production. With the Smoke Jaguars difficulty meeting production goals (resource shortages) maybe the extravagance of this new design could serve as an excuse for their resource shortfall. The large size of this craft at just under 10k tons leads me to think it is a major investment and an impressive display. The new Jaguar saKhan is likely to be pleased with this new dropship and will likely continue or expand on the project.

This is a new find today for me and perhaps raises the most questions in terms of construction facilities. The Babylon L-5 Yards (could this facility be our last best hope for peace) has produced the Sassanid since 2875 and its owner is unknown. Likely it is one of the four Clans (Cloud Cobra, Coyote, Diamond Shark, Ice Hellion) with ownership on world but it is possible that another Clan could have seized it. Smoke Jaguar has the largest concentration of these vessels in their fleet while the Wolves and Jade Falcons have the smallest. Perhaps the Jags seized the facility at sometime during their long and bloody history. It is plausible. I do have to say that this yard (perhaps located at a Legrange point hence the designation) has not drawn much other note. It may be limited to a single bay and 3k tons at the most.


Future Clan Dropship detailed in Technical Readout 3067 introduced three additional Clan dropship designs which gives us one additional shipyard. The Arcadia shows that the Snow Ravens can indeed produce more and could likely prevail in any naval arms race with Steel Viper but at what cost? I am sure they would like to avoid that if possible. The Mercer shows that the Viper yard on Marshall can expand though as it is the third design produced there and the largest approaching 5k tons. The Kirin Orbital Works SJ-3 are the newest player in the game presumably a former Smoke Jaguar possession (SJ in the name). The Hell’s Horses use the facility to produce the Outpost though possibly changing a yard which had been tasked with maintenance to a construction slip.

Quote
Design      Mass      Intro   Shipyards
Arcadia   3,000 tons   3066    Rumiko on Lum (Crest Foundries, ?)
Mercer      4,500 tons   3065   Marshall Orbital Yards
Outpost   7,000 tons   3063   Kirin Orbital Works SJ-3

Maintenance yards versus construction yards. The following is conjecture on my part. Presumably the large part of Clan space industry is assigned for the maintenance of their pre-existing fleet which is quite large already. We know of other yards in passing like the Cheops Shipyards in the Albion system thanks to the Burrock Absorption in canon but presumably nothing is manufactured there. Presumably most are busy repairing and servicing the fleet of each Clan which in some cases like Star Adder seems to be under stress for a lack of maintenance.

Again, I have the sneaking feeling the Ravens might have their business model directed toward the strangulation of any potential competition carefully withholding vital industry, technical assistance or necessary resource for the expansion of Clan fleets. Keeping their supremacy is likely a full time job.


What are your thoughts based on these findings and my conjecture.
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marauder648

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #70 on: September 08, 2018, 03:39:49 AM »

Very good research my friend, and I agree with the last part, the Ravens will do everything they can to maintain their stranglehold on space based assets.  I'd say though that the facilities in Strana Mechty could very much be like the Titan yards in the Sol system, large and established but not used or only used in a maintenance sense because in reality most of the Clan's don't really give two figs for aerospace assets.

According to the fluff most Clans, WarShips are ill wanted solhama and a DropShips only job is to get Warriors from A to B.  The most aerospace minded Clans AFAIK are the Cloud Cobras and Ravens whilst the Shark's also are big ship users but only for trade. 

And then you look at the Falcons with their seemingly endless march of Aegis class ships and commissioning a Nightlord and so forth.  And then logic must sit there and go "The Clans DO care about WarShips, but they just use them very differently."


Basically because of their limited construction facilities, (until the War of Reaving where the Vipers managed to build a yard big enough to produce a Leviathan II in secret) with Lum probably being the only yard capable of making new WarShips of any size, WarShips are an asset that simply can't be risked.

And they, and the Raven's know this, its why they probably ensured that they were the only ones who had the yards, the experience and knowledge to build WarShips outside of the Fredassa which is fairly small and could probably be built at JumpShip yards.  So this makes WarShips in Clan service difficult to replace, and because of their age with most ships being several hundred years old, hard to maintain.
This makes running them very expensive in light of the limited population base the Clans would probably struggle to man the crew intensive WarShips of the SLDF era.  And then you've got to get the parts for them, most of which are probably not built by many of the Clans and again are probably only built by the Sharks, Cloud Cobras and Ravens.  This means that, say, if you needed to get a nice new NL-55 for your cruiser as the one its got has failed due to age, you better hope your clans relations with them are good otherwise you're not getting that laser.

Also, in the face of it, most SLDF designs are quite obsolete, poorly armoured and near defenceless against fighters, built for the mass deployment tactics enjoyed by the SLDF who would rely on numbers, firepower and skill to compensate for any shortcomings in their ships.  But the Clans can no longer deploy massed squadrons of Destroyers who would work together with their aerospace groups and interlinked layers of fire from their weapons to deal with threats. Instead, the Clans seemingly often deployed at most in pairs, and when a WarShip did go out, it was often alone. 
And a lone WarShip is a powerful but very vulnerable statement that is worryingly vulnerable to Aerospace fighters.

So you've got hard to man, hard to maintain ships that are of limited use in the Clans style of fighting, its no wonder that most Clans simply mothballed their WarShips in caches to be called upon IF needed. But are then too vulnerable to risk and near impossible to replace.  So they simply didn't use them, it wasn't worth the hassle and expense.

I would assume that most Clans have some orbital repair and refit facilities but these are for JumpShips and DropShips for the most part but some Clans would have a monopoly on this. Also don't forget you can probably build a DropShip at ground facilities if needed and they can land to be altered and changed, you do not need an orbital facility, but you'd still need one hell of a factory for such an endeavour, which would make other Clans covet such a facility. 


In reality, to make any expansion or changes of the Clans naval program work, we'd have to go outside of the canon.

1 - First, the Clans are going to have to accept that their doctrine is wrong in regards to aerospace assets, especially DropShips.  They are not just a glorified cargo scow that gets Warriors from A to B.  Tukkayid, Luthen and more showed them that DropShips are vulnerable in space and on the ground and that the Spheroids WILL go for them in battle if they can because destroying a DropShip in space can severely impact the fight on the ground.  So use to SafCon the Clans would need to be shaken from their complacency and the idiotic idea that the Inner Sphere is going to play by their rules because they expect them to. 

2 - To do this you're probably going to have to work with the Ravens, in reality they are the only Clan with the expertise and the yard facilities to take the strain of a surge in DropShip building.  If this means that the Invading Clans have to work out a deal with them to ship them resources from the Inner Sphere to the Raven's holdings then so be it.  Work something out with the Sharks to ensure its 'fair' for all parties involved.

3 - The Clans have different designs and these could be shared or traded for production by other Clans in return for runs of Mechs or equipment or whatever.  The Jaguars for example have the very very new Miraborg/Charybdis which is far superior to the aeging and unmodernized (for some unknown reason) Titan II.  But they probably lack the resources to build it as well as the time, with them having to focus on rebuilding their shattered Tourman as a priority.  So to get the resources they need, they might be convinced to trade the design with the other Clans.  The same goes for the Vipers, their Noruff design is a potent ship and something that is needed to counter Spheroid tactics and hostile Assault DropShips.

4 - Spheroid WarShips.  Something tells me that the Great Houses wouldn't keep their WarShip building program a secret.  Its a big propaganda boost, flouting their industrial strength, their will, their techological expertise in facing the Clan threat and so on.  And if this was made public through news or something, the Clans would hear about it.  And the cold hard reality is that the Inner Sphere can EASILY outbuild the Clans once they get going.  And this means that the Invaders are going to have to shake off the ghost of Edo and Turtle Bay and view it as an abberation.  They'll need to have their own WarShips there just in case.  And whilst the Houses probably won't be able to build up enough forces to counter the Clan's WarShip fleets for a decade, how long does that 'Truce' last again?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 04:09:40 AM by marauder648 »
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Bradshaw

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #71 on: September 08, 2018, 08:34:05 AM »

Its inferred in FM Crusader that Star Adders have shipyards and dry docks but not enough to maintain their fleet

Burrock has a massive shipyards on Albion Cheops yards its called was damaged in the absoption by blood spirit
CC has one on new kent candra orbital shipyards that says makes their few dropships
Snow Ravens refitted Diamond Sharks yards on Babylon

Found in FM Crusader and Warden

So the L5 yards are probably still sharks

New Kent is perfect fix for Helix design  ::)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 08:41:18 AM by Bradshaw »
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marauder648

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #72 on: September 08, 2018, 08:46:21 AM »

it's also probably in the remit of the ilKhan's power to get the Free Guilds to reactivate something like a Newgrange for use as a shipyard.  Even if its built to operate as a DropShip manufacturing plant, it could be of use.  And other Khans might approve as it would take some of the Raven's power in this field away.
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Bradshaw

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #73 on: September 08, 2018, 09:24:53 AM »

Maintenance yards versus construction yards. The following is conjecture on my part. Presumably the large part of Clan space industry is assigned for the maintenance of their pre-existing fleet which is quite large already. We know of other yards in passing like the Cheops Shipyards in the Albion system thanks to the Burrock Absorption in canon but presumably nothing is manufactured there. Presumably most are busy repairing and servicing the fleet of each Clan which in some cases like Star Adder seems to be under stress for a lack of maintenance.

Again, I have the sneaking feeling the Ravens might have their business model directed toward the strangulation of any potential competition carefully withholding vital industry, technical assistance or necessary resource for the expansion of Clan fleets. Keeping their supremacy is likely a full time job.


What are your thoughts based on these findings and my conjecture.

Didnt read this before posting my finds

I agree with this with the huge amount of ships that were brought in the exodus and i would think many surviving even til today maintenance is a major concern as lets face it their ships are really old now. Id think just number of dropships they have pushes existing capacity to its limits let alone warships and jumpships.

Personally id like them to realize recycling the old ships is the better option than trying to maintain the large majority of them [especially military transports] starting a new say 10 year plan to revamp a sorely lacking aspect of their war potential.
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marauder648

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #74 on: September 08, 2018, 09:40:35 AM »

Seyla, the Clans basically have way too many things to maintain and yeah, recycling their older vessels and scrapping those in the worst state might very well be needed.  Because the Clans have such a poor grasp on logistics they need to either shorten their supply lines or radically overhaul them.

This means that the Clans need to probably move some form of logistics forwards, either establish a shared facility on the Exodus road's worlds or in the Chainlane worlds, factories even a yardship for repairs. So they can manufacture everything they need not 12 months away, but weeks.
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