OBT Forum

I like the Homer, she's a nice versatile ship, and yeah she lacks the punch of the NAC-40 but that guns got such a short range and there's only one of them that its more dead weight than anything else.  Solid armour package, fast, all round darn nice ship.  The only thing i'd add is a pair of AMS to each arc, sure its not much of an anti-missile defence but its something.

This is a repost from the official forums, but I figured it could be used to help the discussion here:

Most warships the clans built seemed to have actually been built during the Political Century and are as follows:
Fredasa       14+
Peregrine      2-4+ (stated as "a few")
Carrack        2+ (unknown number but SO states they were the first warships built by the Diamond Sharks and Nova Cats)
Molniya        1+ (first warship built by the Wolves according to SO)
Corone         1+ (first warship built by the Snow Ravens according to SO)
York          12+
Nightlord      8+

Leviathan      2 (built during the invasion era, 3rd built in the Inner Sphere)

*Everything has "+" as we don't know what was lost during this period, but it's not factoring into my following summary.

This is a total of around 21 million tons of warships, with potential for more, and a total of at least 40 warships.  Not a lot by the SLDF's armada, but about 10% that which left with Kerensky (though tonnage-wise, probably closer to 5%ish)

Re: Homer
I like it, but it honestly seems to be pushing past the corvette style - not in weaponry but in other capabilities.  It's large fuel bunkerage suggests to me the potential for long deployments while it's weapons are more than enough to destroy 99% of what it might come across, and the its speed allows it to chase down pretty much anything it wants.  If you were up for suggestions, I'd consider increasing the fighters to a full trinary, the small craft to a full binary, and increase the number of elementals to 75 and change the designation to a (light) frigate.

There are dozens of Carracks, most of which are the Merchant (unarmed) version

Well this revision is up to us masterarminas and we have some of the best minds around. Now if I can get some time to outline all my chunky thoughts up..... damn!

Please outline your best ideas for fleet modernization of the Clan Navy starting after the Truce of Tukayyid.

Okay folks as I start down this path please let me know what you think. Here are my numbers for current Clan warship strength as the story gets under way here.

Clan Warships
3053

   Blood Spirit (6 warships)
1 Black Lion class Battlecruiser: Rocinante
1 Sovetskii Soyuz class Heavy Cruiser: Carmine Justice (Flagship)
1 Aegis class Heavy Cruiser: Exsanguine
1 Lola III class Destroyer: Blood Fury
1 York class Destroyer/Carrier: Stooping Kite
1 Carrack class Transport: Pedigree

   Burrock (15 warships)
1 Potemkin class Troop Cruiser: Renown
1 Nightlord class Battleship: Absolute Truth
1 Liberator class Heavy Cruiser: Constantineau
1 Sovetskii Soyuz class Heavy Cruiser: Divine Conquest
1 Aegis class Heavy Cruiser: Ares’s Might
2 Lola III class Destroyers: Hagar, Yodan
1 Essex class Destroyer: Tehuantepec
4 York class Destroyer/Carriers: Exodus Avenger, Exodus Crusader, Exodus Ranger, Exodus Sentinel
2 Vincent Mk42 class Corvettes: Centaur, Pegasus
1 Carrack class Transport: Vitriolic

   Cloud Cobra (15 warships)
1 McKenna class Battleship: Second Coming
2 Potemkin class Troop Cruisers: Wisdom of Ages, True Sight
1 Cameron class Battlecruiser: Incense
2 Aegis class Heavy Cruisers: Consequence, Inquisitor
1 Lola III class Destroyer: Cataclysm
3 York class Destroyer/Carriers: Brimstone, The Protector, Nebulous
2 Vincent Mk42 class Corvettes: Tramp, Hertzog’s Staff
1 Carrack class Transport: Blind Faith
2 Fredasa class Corvettes: Hell Fury, Perdition’s Flame

   Coyote (12 warships, 1 under construction)
1 Texas class Battleship: Ancestral Home (unable to leave Tamaron system)
2 Potemkin class Troop Cruisers: Midnight Star, Morning Star
1 Nightlord class Battleship: Great Coyote Spirit (Flagship)
1 Cameron class Battlecruiser: Blood of the Coyote
1 Liberator class Heavy Cruiser: Spirit in the Sky
2 Sovetskii Soyuz class Heavy Cruisers: Steel Fang, Howling
2 Lola III class Destroyers: Courage, Honor of Ages
1 Essex class Destroyer: Windrunner
- York class Destroyer/Carrier: [Broken Sea - under construction]
1 Carrack class Transport: Solar Blaze

   Diamond Shark (18 warships)
5 Potemkin class Troop Cruisers: Poseidon, Titanic, Tsunami, Red Tide, Kraken
1 Nightlord class Battleship: Terror of the Deep (Flagship)
1 Sovetskii Soyuz class Heavy Cruiser: Nagasawa
2 Volga class Transports: Bold Venture, Speculator
1 Aegis class Heavy Cruiser: Bloodlust
2 Lola III class Destroyers: Predator, Space Hunter
2 Essex class Destroyers: Sharon, Tracy
3+ Carrack class Transports: Star Swimmer, Devourer, Bloodletter
1 Fredasa class Corvette: Swift Strike

   Fire Mandrill (7 warships)
1 Potemkin class Troop Cruiser: Jungle Heat
1 Sovetskii Soyuz class Heavy Cruiser: Reaver
3 Lola III-class Destroyers: Rancor, Rage, Anathema
1 Vincent Mk 42 class Corvette: Firetender
1 Carrack class Transport: Firehold

   Ghost Bear (15 warships, 2 under construction)
- Leviathan class Battleships: [Leviathan, Great Bear - both under construction]
1 Nightlord class Battleship: Ursa Major
1 Cameron class Battlecruiser: Dieron's Run (Flagship)
1 Black Lion class Battlecruiser: Bear's Den
1 Volga class Transport: Ursine Boatman
1 Congress class Frigate: Shining Claw
2 Lola III class Destroyers: Blizzard, Icepick
2 Essex class Destroyers: White Claw, White Fang
1 York class Destroyer/Carrier: Ursa Minor
2 Whirlwind class Destroyers: Fire Fang, Ursus
2 Carrack class Transports: Den Mother, Yggdrasil
1 Fredasa class Corvette: Black Ghost

   Goliath Scorpion (17 warships)
1 McKenna class Battleship: Lei Kung (Flagship)
4 Potemkin class Troop Cruisers: Enceladus, Karttikeya, Epimetheus, Prometheus
1 Nightlord class Battleship: Atropos
1 Cameron class Battlecruiser: Hephaestus
1 Sovetskii Soyuz class Heavy Cruiser: Serket
1 Volga class Transport: Andromeda
2 Congress class Frigates: Bernlad, Garlon
2 Aegis class Heavy Cruisers: Corona Borealis, Corona Austrina
2 Lola III class Destroyers: Sagitta, Auriga
1 Essex class Destroyer: Orpheus
1 Carrack class Transport: Collrane

   Hell’s Horses (10 warships)
3 Potemkin class Troop Cruisers: Steel Shield, Armageddon, Blood Horse
1 Cameron class Battlecruiser: Sleipnir (Flagship)
1 Volga class Transport: Mount Olympus
1 Congress class Frigate: Bucephalus
3 Lola III class Destroyers: Black Knight, Red Knight, Gold Knight
1 Carrack class Transport: Golden Clydesdale

   Ice Hellion (13 warships)
1 McKenna class Battleship: Cage’s Pride
1 Potemkin class Troop Cruiser: Coterie
2 Aegis class Heavy Cruisers: Taney, Chaos Sailor
3 Lola III class Destroyers: Cold Hunter, Impaler, Radiant
1 Essex class Destroyer: Moore’s Honor
1 York class Destroyer/Carrier: Pack Leader
1 Carrack class Transport: Maker
3 Fredasa class Corvettes: Swift Bait, Hellion’s Pride, Whelp

   Jade Falcon (23 warships)
1 Texas class Battleship: Falcon’s Nest
1 Nightlord class Battleship: Emerald Talon
1 Cameron class Battlecruiser: Turkina’s Pride (Flagship)
3 Black Lion class Battlecruisers: Jade Aerie, White Aerie, Blue Aerie
1 Liberator class Heavy Cruiser: Gauntlet
1 Sovetskii Soyuz class Heavy Cruiser: Hawker
2 Congress class Frigates: Green Lantern, Kerensky’s Pride
9 Aegis class Heavy Cruisers: Jade Talon, Janice Hazen, Frost Falcon, Gold Talon, Red Talon, White Talon, Black Talon, Blue Talon, Hawk Eye
1 Whirlwind class Destroyer: Emerald Tornado
1 Vincent Mk42 class Corvette: Lightning Strike
1 Carrack class Transport: Ironhold Provider
1 Fredasa class Corvette: Verdant Stoop

   Nova Cat (22 warships)
1 Black Lion class Battlecruiser: Thunderbolt
9 Aegis class Heavy Cruisers: Blood Oath, Bond, Promise, Blade, Path of Honor, Vision Quest, Principle, Chronicle, Rememberance
1 Congress class Frigate: True Vision (Flagship)
2 Lola III class Destroyers: Faithful, Devout
1 York class Destroyer/Carrier: Anna Rosse
3+ Carrack class Transport: True Path, Perilous Vision, Void
3 Vincent Mk42 class Corvette: Rightous Return, Far Vision, Spirit Vision
2 Fredasa class Corvette: Spirit Sight, Future Triumph

   Smoke Jaguar (23 warships)
1 Texas class Battleship: Veiled Huntress
1 Potemkin class Troop Cruiser: Osis’ Pride
1 Black Lion class Battlecruiser: Streaking Mist (Flagship)
1 Liberator class Heavy Cruiser: Korat
1 Sovetskii Soyuz class Heavy Cruiser: Pouncing Fury
3 Congress class Frigates: FireCrest, Hunter’s Pride, Snow Leopard
2 Lola III class Destroyers: Storm Cat, Griffin
3 Essex class Destroyers: Dark Claw, The Iowa, Sabre Cat
2 York class Destroyer/Carriers: Lioness, Queen Lynx
1 Whirlwind class Destroyer: Shadow Fang
4 Vincent Mk42 class Corvettes: Ripper, Azov, Simas Osis, Ghostwalker
1 Carrack class Transport: Pusher
2 Fredasa class Corvettes: Ocelot, Jaguarundi

   Snow Raven (39 warships, 1 under construction)
1 McKenna class Battleship: James McKenna
1 Texas class Battleship: Mountbatton
6 Potemkin class Troop Cruisers: Wild Swan, Snow Flake, Bonaventure, Eden Rose,
Rock, Treachery
1 Nightlord class Battleship: Snow Raven
3 Cameron class Battlecruisers: Blizzard, Kerensky’s Hope, Ice Storm
3 Sovetskii Soyuz class Heavy Cruisers: White Cloud, Storm Crow, Avalanche
1 Conqueror class Battlecruiser: Conqueror [Ark Royal - under construction]
2 Volga class Transports: Scavanger, Tenacity
1 Congress class Frigate: Magpie
7 Aegis class Heavy Cruisers: Black Justice, Blue Lancer, Blue Quest, Lord Death, Morning Violence, Scabbard, White Terror
4 Lola III class Destroyers: Bloody Talon, Cold Hunter, Spur, Vision of Terra
1 Essex class Destroyer: Eternity
1 York class Destroyer/Carrier: Corvidae
2 Whirlwind class Destroyers: William Adams, Drake
2 Vincent Mk42 class Corvettes: Huninn, Muninn
2 Carrack class Transports: Nestling, Venture Star
1 Fredasa class Corvette: Black Beard

   Star Adder (15 warships)
1 McKenna class Battleship: Sovereign Right
1 Black Lion class Battlecruiser: Admiral William S. Preston
1 Sovetskii Soyuz class Heavy Cruiser: Nygaard (Flagship)
2 Volga class Transports: Cho Polu, Pompeii
1 Aegis class Heavy Cruiser: Stellar Serpent
2 Lola III class Destroyers: Cameron’s Flame, Warlock
1 Essex class Destroyer: Eagle
1 York class Destroyer/Carriers: Star Fire
2 Vincent Mk42 class Corvettes: Vritra, Naga
1 Carrack class Transport: Black Adder
2 Fredasa class Corvettes: Vicious Fang, Arcadian Asp

   Steel Viper (15 warships)
1 Nightlord class Battleship: Dark Asp (Flagship)
2 Potemkin class Troop Cruiser: Ophidian, Serpentes
1 Cameron class Battlecruiser: Zalman’s Endeavor
1 Sovetskii Soyuz class Heavy Cruiser: Sanra Mercer
1 Congress class Frigate: Snake Leader
1 Aegis class Heavy Cruiser: Steel Python
2 Lola III class Destroyer: Snake Pit, Anaconda
1 Essex class Destroyer: Martial Legacy
2 Whirlwind class Destroyer: Constrictor, Snake in the Grass
1 Vincent Mk42 class Corvette: Coiled Serpent
1 Carrack class Transport: Pride of New Kent
1 Fredasa class Corvette: Pit Viper

   Wolf (19 warships)
1 McKenna class Battleship: Werewolf
1 Texas class Battleship: Nicholas Kerensky
1 Potemkin class Troop Cruiser: Full Moon
2 Cameron class Battlecruisers: Mother Jocasta, Bloody Fang
2 Liberator class Heavy Cruisers: Jerome Winson, Victoria Ward
1 Sovetskii Soyuz class Heavy Cruiser: Dire Wolf (Flagship)
3 Black Lion class Battlecruisers: Implacable, Stealthy Kill, Blood Brinker
1 Volga class Transport: Provider
1 Congress class Frigate: Rogue
1 Lola III class Destroyer: Natures Wrath
4 Vincent Mk42 class Corvettes: Trailblazer, Relentless Pursuit, Valiant, Killing Blow
1 Carrack class Transport: Night Warrior

   United Clan Command (4 warships)
2 Newgrange class Yardships: Star Forge, Void Haven
1 McKenna class Battleship: McKenna’s Pride (Clan Flagship)
1 Texas class Battleship: Prinz Eugen (Clan Prison Ship)

Looks good to me and yet again, the fluff don't match the numbers.  where you have two of the largest naval presences in the two Clans that probably really really don't want WarShips (Falcons and Jags, especially the Jags).  And its just weird to me that the perennially resource poor Scorpions also have a HUGE naval tourman for a Clan their size.

The two Unclaimed NewGranges, have them in Strana Mechty under Guild control whilst of course the McKenna's Pride and Prinz Euigen were under the control of the Ebon Keshik.

Thank you. The information above is as close to canon as I can get. Only non canon addition is the two Newgrange Yardships added from the Free Guilds who have activated them in the wake of Tukayyid. It was my aim to establish these numbers before we start trying to alter everything.

As for the fluff not matching the numbers I don't know what to say. Again this is every canon ship the Clans have active at this time per my best data mining. The Blood Spirit flagship is my best guess, I divided the Burrock and Star Adder fleets to reflect their pre-Absorption War numbers, combined Wolf fleets before the Refusal War and pieced together the Smoke Jaguar fleet thanks largely to FM Updates. Could you be a little more specific on your fluff not matching the number comment?

The Jade Falcons and the Smoke Jaguars are the two most powerful Clans at the time of the invasion. Perhaps they activated their entire fleet to help in this event? I will say that the Snow Ravens are not keeping a two to one advantage against them or Nova Cat and Wolf either. Also through Absorption the Jaguars (Mongoose) and the Wolves (Widowmaker) have access to two Clan fleets.

It is my opinion that the Scorpions keep such a large fleet for two reasons. One aide in their Seeking rituals which have them going just about everywhere and two as living history. These ships are in large part responsible for the establishment of the Clans thanks to the Exodus and part of the gloried past which effects the present and future. Their fleet is a powerful statement on how they exist. I don't know how eager they would be to carve up these hallowed living museums as masterarminas is doing however.

More to come later, how do the rest of you feel about this starting point?

Please outline your best ideas for fleet modernization of the Clan Navy starting after the Truce of Tukayyid.

Just because it kind of has to be said, unless the clans get word that the Inner Sphere is booming in their warship production (which really doesn't get off the ground until the late 3050s and early 3060s), there's no reason for them to work on modernization in the post-Tukayyid era.

Okay, now that the disclaimer is out of the way, let's get started.

The first step of this is going to be working on an overall fleet doctrine for the clans.  This is likely to be contested by two factions, one is going to be wanting an effective warship program with combat and superiority in space being the goal (Ravens, Cobras, and possibly the Star Adders are going to support this doctrine).  The second is going to be a reinvention of the SLDF doctrine, where warships are intended primarily to support ground forces (most of the clans would prefer this doctrine).  Fortunately, these doctrines are not mutually exclusive, but the second is likely to be more resource heavy than the first.

The second step for whatever doctrine is decided on, or even if both doctrines are allowed to go forward, will be something similar to marauder's FRAM programs.  Layering on additional armor and diversifying weaponry will go a long way to producing a stop-gap while they build towards truly modern warships.

Space Superiority Doctrine

The space superiority doctrine is one in which a fleet is build to specifically fight and destroy opposing fleets.  The warships supporting this doctrine are going to be relatively specialized, and built to function very well as a team, and poorly individually.  This doctrine is primarily based around 2 types of warships, with a third taking a rare slot in a supporting role.

The Warships

Battleship - This will likely be around Texas-sized, but might be as big as a McKenna.  They are going to be moderately thrusted, heavily armored, weapons will be focused on killing other warships, low or zero collars, ~60 ASF +/- a binary-ish to be used primarily as a defensive measure.  Escorts will be used as AMS and anti-aerospace/dropship weapons, so the battleship can focus on bigger weapons.  Most clans won't field more than one of these.  Leviathans, are a bit too big and too expensive to reasonably be put into a level of production any of these doctrines are interested in.  (Something similar to the Arbitration would fit well here)

Battlecruiser - Probably around 1 megaton +/-.  These are the primary combatants of the clan superiority fleets, while their weapons are more heavily oriented on anti-shipping, they won't completely ignore AMS and anti-aerospace.  Around 30-40 fighters, still primarily used defensively, and with zero collars.  (I like the Scharnhorst for this role, I think it fits pretty well)

Fleet Carrier - Likely built in similar numbers as battleships, only a few clans are going to be able to field these properly.  These are going to have armaments heavily focused on anti-aerospace and dropship, with just a couple of larger guns to present enough of a threat to scare away smaller warships.  These will field a galaxy of aerospace fighters and small craft and are the only only warship which is intended to consistently use their fighters in an offensive role.  I want to say that the mass for something like this would be in the neighborhood of a Nightlord, which could actually be used as a base for this.

Escort Destroyers - These are small and likely considered comparatively disposable.  These are intended to screen the larger ships and attempt to destroy attacking ASF, SC, Dropships, and capital missiles, allowing the larger ships to focus on the "real" enemy - other warships.  While most of their weapons are going to be smallish, either standard-sized or Naval Lasers, they will be build in larger banks to take greater advantage of AAA mode and bracketing fire (and I wish sub-capital weapons were available as these would dramatically increase these ships effectiveness in their roles).  They might have a couple of larger weapons bays, merely to be able to force them not to be completely ignored in fleet combat.  These will be specifically assigned to line-based warships where they will defend against attacks their larger cousins are ill suited for.  The clans may want to deploy these in a way they don't normally deploy warships, as a pair to a single point.

Local Superiority Doctrine

Based heavily on the doctrines of the SLDF where the fleets are primarily intended to support ground-based assaults.  These warships are going to maintain larger sized cargo holds, and may even be able to hot-drop ground forces from orbit.  This is a doctrine which already has decent examples for it's upper end warships including Leviathans, Potemkin, and Nightlords, with only the second two needing some level up FRAM upgrading.  With significantly larger numbers of dropship collars, this fleet will likely take a significantly longer period of time to actually build - though with most of the warships built for this doctrine being heavily based on previous or already in production classes, there will be less time needed to develop the warships themselves.

The Warships

Leviathan - Simply a massive ship with a large amount of cargo space.  This ship will likely be the very high end of fleets using this doctrine.

Potemkin II - The ideal troop transport, the only real argument against it is the level of complexity required to get it and it's massive number of collars working properly with its KF drive.  Will want to upgrade it's armor and standard-sized weapons.

Nightlord - A good start to a more direct assault-type of warship, this ship will often contain the quick assault portion of an attack force.

Medium Sized Troop Cruiser - A smaller version of the Potemkin.  Not much more to say that that.  (The Cassandra may be a good start to this)

Escort Destroyers - Similar or potentially identical to the Escort Destroyers in the Space Superiority Doctrine.

Of both doctrines a small number of additional classes would be used.  A number of Carracks will be used to support these fleets, while some kind of yardship would be a great idea to bring along (perhaps something similar to the Legacy)