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Author Topic: La Royale  (Read 3424 times)

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Ice Hellion

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La Royale
« on: August 24, 2011, 02:11:41 PM »

I looked at the French Navy just before WWII and I wondered how it would look like in space.

If you have any idea, concept... go ahead.
So far, I only have the Richelieu Battle Cruiser
http://www.solaris7.com/TRO/Spaceship/ShipInfo.asp?ID=871

2 battle cruisers
5 battleships
2 carriers
19 cruisers
32 Destroyers

117 small Warships and supply Ships
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Ice Hellion

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Re: La Royale
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2011, 02:10:51 AM »

I am not at home right now but I will post a little later a couple of thoughts/questions on how/why build a space navy like this one.
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Ice Hellion

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Re: La Royale
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2011, 02:34:13 PM »

As I said, I am planning to expand this little "La Royale" thing a little.

So here are a few questions in no peculiar order:

- what role could such a Navy have? Offensive, patrol, show room...?
- what kind of tactics?
- what is needed to build it? Industrial level, shipyards, staff, GDP, number of planets...?
- what is needed to supply it with goods and qualified men and to keep that supply even during long operations? I was thinking that it should perhaps have several crews and rotate them?
- how long does it take to build it from nothing?
...
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Takiro

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Re: La Royale
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2011, 06:38:38 PM »

Well doing WW2 in Battlespace is a little different. Presumably planets would replace nations or regions and that being said France has a lot to defend. Lets say France is a star system in WW2 I believe the French Navy had Allied responsibility for control of the Mediterranean. Equating Europe as the central region or star cluster you'd have to patrol the space to the south (perhaps Rimward) of this area and deny easy access to Africa for the Axis. All that being said this French Space Navy in this setting could have been built as a response to the German aggression of a First Great War which was fought on planet (or French territory).

FYI, the Richelieu is a pretty nasty.  ;)
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Halvagor

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Re: La Royale
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2011, 08:43:49 PM »

Doing WWII in Battlespace fails in one major way; it's impossible to get an Army anywhere in BattleTech without a Navy. 

Though it has three separate coastlines, France has always emphasized its Army over its Navy, leading to a rather small Navy while its Army was frequently one of the largest in Europe.  The UK (even when it was just England) had the opposite bent, with a typically small army but an ever-expanding navy.  Let's call these the French and British models, respectively.

In BT or BS, the French model wouldn't work out very well, as it would force a nation to be both defensive and isolated; without the ability to even successfully escort troops to beleaguered worlds, the planets could be picked off one-by-one by a nation able to effectively isolate individual planets.  I'd argue that this is the method adopted by the Capellan Confederation in the 30th and early 31st centuries.

The British model, meanwhile, if it could build up a navy large enough to ensure it could defend itself at multiple places at once, could get by with a relatively small army used as merely a rapid response force (or as an offensive tool to take a few planets at a time).  This is more or less what the Outworlds Alliance does, emphasizing its AeroSpace element.

With BT/BS rules, the British model is much more likely to win in a fight; the best way to destroy a regiment of 'mechs, after all, is to get them while they're still aboard their transports.  In a universe without WarShips, however (and with BT's foolish rules on sensor ranges and the like) neither system can survive on its own, leading to a requirement for a more balanced military.

However, despite the commentary in many of the sourcebooks (I'm looking at you, StratOps), there's no real reason to differentiate between types of WarShip, because the constraints which caused stratification in real-world warship design (and nomenclature) do not exist in BT/BS, and were fairly artificial even when delineated in the Washington and London naval treaties. 
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"...but if evil men were not now and then slain it would not be a good world for weaponless dreamers."  From Kim, by Rudyard Kipling, 1901

Ice Hellion

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Re: La Royale
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2011, 02:18:12 PM »

Thanks for your answers but you are focusing too much on the French side of thing (which is entirely my fault).

Forget for now about the French thing and focus more on the fleet I "designed" and on the more generic questions on fleet building I have (as you all know space is not my cup of tea).
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Takiro

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Re: La Royale
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2011, 02:29:20 PM »

So your talking BattleTech fleet organization. I would say your going to need more than one planet to have such a navy as the FWL didn't even have that many warships before the Jihad. Your navy looks like a Age of War naval force but it depends on a lot of factors.
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Ice Hellion

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Re: La Royale
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2011, 04:16:48 PM »

I would say your going to need more than one planet to have such a navy as the FWL didn't even have that many warships before the Jihad. Your navy looks like a Age of War naval force but it depends on a lot of factors.

This was one of my questions: how do you produce and keep this navy running?
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Halvagor

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Re: La Royale
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2011, 09:33:21 PM »

Thanks for your answers but you are focusing too much on the French side of thing (which is entirely my fault).

Forget for now about the French thing and focus more on the fleet I "designed" and on the more generic questions on fleet building I have (as you all know space is not my cup of tea).

I thought I had at least indirectly answered some of it, but I'll go for a more direct response.

Ship types:

Ship classifications in BattleTech/BattleSpace/AeroTech are practically meaningless.  What, after all, is the difference between a battleship and a battlecruiser?  In canon designs, both tend to have eggshell-thin armor, both are able to destroy the other in as little as a single broadside (something which has happened about once in real naval warfare, Bismarck vs Hood/Prince of Wales).

Looking at the McKenna and the Black Lion in 3057 Revised, the McKenna may have 50% more armor, but the Black Lion is so over-armed that it makes the difference meaningless.  Either can destroy the other in a single turn, and it can easily turn into mutual-destruction, as well. 

In the real-world, what few official designations existed for warship classes were based on firepower.  The Washington and London Naval Treaties established that "Heavy Cruisers" (a type it created) carried guns heavier than 6 inches (150mm), while "light cruisers" (another type it created) carried guns over 5 inches up to 6 inches. Tonnage limits were set on heavy cruisers, but not specifically on light cruisers, which resulted in things like USS St Louis and USS Helena, technically light cruisers due to their 6 inch armament, but displacing the same 10,000 tons as the "treaty cruiser" types of heavy cruiser which preceeded them, armed with 8 inch guns.  These heavy cruisers had an advantage of longer-range firepower, but the 6 inch gun fired faster.  Below about 10,000 yards (knife-fighting range for WWII warships) the light cruisers were actually more destructive, because their lighter guns fired nearly three times as fast, letting them get more destruction on enemy targets.

BattleTech ignores the fact that, in general, heavier guns are able to shoot further than lighter guns, and anything resembling a rate-of-fire advantage.  It also ignores the fact that a single turret on a WWII battleship tended to weigh more than an entire destroyer, which rarely came in at more than 2000 tons.  Battleships also tended weigh ~20 times as much as destroyers.  USS Colorado, of 32,000 tons, was designed when "modern" destroyers displaced 1,000 tons.  USS Iowa, of 45,000 tons, was designed around the same time as the 2000-ton Fletcher-class destroyers.  By the same ratios, the minimum 100,000-ton "warship" is the right size to play destroyer to the likes of the McKenna and Texas, rather than the 500,000 to 600,000 ton monstrosities.

Going back to our Black Lion/McKenna comparison, however, what does the Black Lion have that makes it a "battlecruiser"?  It's no faster, and when the battlecruiser role was invented about 1906, the requirement was for a ship that had battleship-type weapons with less armor and more speed.  Black Lion is short on armor (but not enough so to make it important) but lacks the extra speed.  So it's much more a "light battleship" than a "battlecruiser" by any definition which cares about speed.  But by the time of the Queen Elizabeth class (1913), ships could have the high speed and full battleship-level protection, creating the "fast battleship" and essentially rendering the Battlecruiser obsolete.  Though always designated a battlecruiser in official literature, HMS Hood was frequently considered a "fast battleship" by people outside the Royal Navy, considered to have equal protection and firepower of the Queen Elizabeths, but with greater speed. 

In WWII, destroyers were fast, completely unarmored, and armed with 4 to 5 inch guns and torpedoes.  Many light and some heavy cruisers had equal speed, though all heavy cruisers had some protection.  There are no documented instances of a destroyer sinking a vessel larger than a heavy cruiser, however.  Nor are there instances of any cruisers sinking a battleship, largely because of the ineffectiveness of the weapons on these ships at penetrating the armor of heavier warships (the heavy cruisers sunk by destroyers were always sunk via torpedoes, for which BT has no analogue other than nuclear-armed capital missiles, and even that's a poor one). 

The doctrinal reason ships other than battleships existed in the era of classic large-scale navies was to protect the heavier warships from torpedoes (whether carried by aircraft, other light ships, or submarines).  Destroyers were originally named "torpedo boat destroyers" and came about to protect slow, ungainly battleships from light, nimble, short-range torpedo-carrying ships.  They were later adapted for anti-submarine and anti-aircraft work, though eventually both the US and British navies designed light cruisers for the sole purpose of air defense, which were excellent at their designed task and generally utter failures against other warships.  BT's ridiculous rules on fire-control and the number of weapons per firing arc make this very difficult to emulate, though easier with the introduction of sub-capital weapons. 

Realistically, the "destroyer" role of a small, fast escort should probably be played by DropShips.  They'll still have the fire control/weapon arc issue, but they can have better speed curves to distinguish themselves from other types of warships. 

Cruisers should probably be smaller, less expensive battleships, though BT makes it quite easy for these types of cruisers to destroy a battleship, especially with superior numbers.  I'd personally go for quantity over quality under BattleTech's rules, because bigger size gains you practically nothing. 

In the world of infrastructure, if you're using these ships for an average of 200 years apiece (only a little shorter than most SLDF designs were used by the SLDF), then you could realistically build them all with a single construction slip, assuming it was always building a new warship.  Realistically, you'd probably want more like 10.  In real navies, warships can expect to spend 10-30% of their active lives undergoing maintenance, upgrades, and repairs in a shipyard.  So 10 to 20 would give you sufficient space to handle routine maintenance (but not necessarily battle damage) as well as construction. 

How you produce and maintain a navy is less concrete.  The main thing, historically, needed to "produce" a Navy is political will.  Industry helps, but Brazil, Argentina, and Chile once owned & operated battleships.  Today, with the recent launch of China's first aircraft carrier they have exactly the same number as Thailand, and, depending on how one defines "aircraft carrier," two fewer than Japan's "Maritime Self Defense Force".  GDP is a poor measure of a country's ability to support a military, as Luxemburg routinely scores in the top 5 of GDP measurements, while the United States rarely breaks into the top 10.  It's all about political willpower.  While the South American naval arms race was going on in the early 20th century none of the countries involved were "industrialized;" they just had the desire to be seen as "battleship nations" and so ordered battleships (from Great Britain, generally).  Much the way countries today desire to be seen as "nuclear" nations and so waste a great deal of money developing nuclear bombs, or "space nations" and throw a lot of money at sending things into orbit.  It's a matter of national pride more than industrial capacity, if the nation is willing to order the warships elsewhere. 

 
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"...but if evil men were not now and then slain it would not be a good world for weaponless dreamers."  From Kim, by Rudyard Kipling, 1901

Ice Hellion

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Re: La Royale
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2011, 03:41:58 PM »

I thought I had at least indirectly answered some of it, but I'll go for a more direct response.

Thanks.

And for the human side of things?
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Halvagor

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Re: La Royale
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2011, 05:14:52 PM »

On the human front, it will all be about the fluff. 

It takes time to train people to figure out how to use equipment.  If you're building a space navy from scratch, with a country that has no tradition of one, then unless you have massive assistance from a nation which does have a navy, you can expect it to take decades for your new navy to be able to compete with another.  You can buy equipment, you can't buy people who know how to use the equipment effectively.  Crewmen can be trained to turn wrenches in a mere couple years.  Training officers to properly manage systems within a ship, a ship itself, and then groups of ships could easily take a decade for each stage, and the stages would be very difficult to run simultaneously. 

As a real-world example, in the mid 1920s, the US Navy was trying to design its first purpose-built aircraft carrier (USS Ranger).  They asked their subject matter experts, one of whom was Lieutenant Commander Marc Mitscher.  At this time, Lexington and Saratoga has not yet entered service, and all carrier experience came from the converted merchant ship USS Langley.  Mitscher and others gave input, including the assessment that a top speed of ~25 knots was fine, because its faster than a battleship, and why would a carrier ever need to go much faster? 

Then Lex & Sara hit the fleet, with top speeds around ~30 knots, and doctrine radically changed to remove carriers from the battleship formation, making them independent.  Suddenly speed mattered, and USS Ranger did not have it, making it the only pre-war USN carrier never to fight in the Pacific; even when the Pacific Fleet was down to one carrier, Ranger was never sent into combat there.  But Mitscher?  He would go on to advise on carrier design until his death in 1945, and served as the senior carrier admiral in the Pacific from '43 until '45, and the last ship he helped influence didn't retire until 1992 (USS Midway). 

This is also an example that, even if a nation does have a tradition of an active navy, new paradigm-shifting changes can force it to have to re-learn how to use its tools.  Heavy cruisers had been around for 20 years by WW2, yet the US Navy never envisioned them being used away from the battleships, and so had to make up tactics while in combat against the Japanese, with very mixed results. 

The introduction of radar took several years to catch on with fleet commanders, even though it was rapidly tied into fire-control networks.  But it wasn't trusted by everyone, and so its warnings were often ignored or misinterpreted, with many disastrous results.

The fact that the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) just launched its first aircraft carrier on its first cruise doesn't mean China will shortly be able to enter the power-projection game at sea; it means they're 15-30 years away from being able to do so, provided their economy doesn't collapse in the meantime (which I consider likely). 
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 05:16:35 PM by Halvagor »
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"...but if evil men were not now and then slain it would not be a good world for weaponless dreamers."  From Kim, by Rudyard Kipling, 1901

Ice Hellion

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Re: La Royale
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2011, 01:12:14 PM »

Thanks for your insights. I will think about all this and try to come back to you all.

Meanwhile, if anyone has ideas or opinions, please feel free to post them.
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5
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