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Author Topic: what's the deal with Warships?  (Read 4142 times)

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Dread Moores

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Re: what's the deal with Warships?
« Reply #60 on: March 25, 2014, 10:13:46 AM »

A way to work naval weapons may be to introduce a new type of naval weapon, one with a damage to weight ratio much better than current capital scale weapons, so that WarShips that did not use them would be flat out trying to scratch the other guy's paint work.  However, as good a naval weapon as they are, for whatever reason, that can't hit units planetside.

Let's just flip this example for a moment. If the next 3145 book (say IlClan) or the rumored 3250 book showed up tomorrow, what would your reaction be to weapons that are so overwhelmingly better for 'Mechs that everybody needs to switch over to them, effectively? As an added note, these weapons can no longer target aerospace fighters at all, under any circumstances, and suffer grossly out of proportion modifiers to hit infantry. Basically, they can engage 'Mechs and vehicles. That's it. So...your reaction? I'd guess unhappiness with the development, but not a blown gasket. The vocal minority of the online fanbase? Prepare the hospitals for an influx of coronaries.

Now, while the naval fanbase is quite a bit more limited than the general fanbase, they wouldn't be entirely misplaced in their anger. (Somewhat, but there is a weird precedent here.) FanPro and CGL made one singular decision that now comes back to haunt them time and time again. The idea that each successive ruleset needs to be fully compatible with each prior one, grandfathering in virtually every one of the thousands of units that exist for this setting sounds like an awesome selling point. It's also created a nightmare of growing proportions. This precedent has existed through more than one version of the rules now, and that precedent is what leaves this fan base mired and attached to a game system that has not updated its game design philosophies with the changing market. Don't get me wrong, there are benefits to such a precedent (as seen by the easy compatibility to drop just about any unit into just about any era). But I'm strongly beginning to believe the downsides are now outweighing the benefits. Being beholden to quirks and twists in the rules tracing back as far as Battlespace has led to an clearly overwhelming process to get electronic creation software on the market (along with some ugly project mismanagement on that front). The points matching system (BV) has become an absolute esoteric mess, requiring (at times) major revisions even today, for a system that premiered six years ago. New weapons and technology introduced need to fit into increasingly smaller niches, so as to ensure that older technologies are not made irrelevant. Each new technology only adds to the complications arising in record sheet production, said unit creation software, and the BV system.

I honestly don't know what the answer is. I know what I'd do, but there's a list as long as some stellar distance measurement units as to why I would be a spectacularly bad person to be in charge of BT's development. It feels like you cannot invalidate the old. You cannot pull the plug and say "We need to build this damn thing from scratch to clear up some problems that have lingered far too long." You can patch this issue as it arises, but the patch causes three more issues. You can then patch them, and go until the next problem arises. Then prepare for more cascading patches. WarShips and fleets aren't the only issue suffering under this problem, but they are definitely one of the most noticeable. Personally, I'd yank the carpet out, flip the table over, and go back to the design stage. I'd also really not feel one moment of remorse for those fans who would walk away, mostly because I've spent virtually every day since I joined the Battletech community with someone pounding me over the head about how the game has "jumped the shark." By now, we've got an entire boulevard of selachimorpha suffering from vertigo behind us.

As for a non-table flipping suggestion? I don't have a damn clue. Maybe some sort of era-specific rulesets, allowing for each era to have something that works best within its time period? In the meantime, I just keep stumbling along with the game. I love the setting, but it really saddens me when I find that the game resembles its own setting the most when modeled under some simpler, narrative based systems. Your game should not model better under another game's system.
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Knightmare

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Re: what's the deal with Warships?
« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2014, 03:56:51 PM »

You are the one making claims about naval capacity in 3145. I did not. At most I implied alternatives which would scale to whatever resources a given era is already capable of putting into warships.

You've also made a big deal about whether "hard numbers" have been published. You realize that CGL's fiction establishes a certain level and intensity of conflict for the 3100 era? And that this imposes upper and lower limits to certain broad statistics? These limits may not be "hard" numbers, but they are sufficient for comparison to 3025.* Does it matter if the Republic's amazing growth is still less** than 3025 rates, as long as the stories are the ones you/CGL want to write?

EDIT:
*obviously you know that, you gave numbers I can work from. Apologies for the redundant questions, I've been AFK'ing all day.
**assuming generous (considering its relative inactivity) attrition, the Fortress' total production over 3135-3145 looks to be within +/-2% of what three average factory worlds would achieve circa 3025. Which means annual production by the end of the 3135-3145 decade should be close to double that and 3067 levels could well be within reach.


Actually, my original response about industrial growth in the aerospace industry was directed to this post http://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/aerotech/what%27s-the-deal-with-warships/msg34420/#msg34420. Not yours.

The poster believed aerospace assets were becoming or are increasingly rare—they're not. The only real rarity in aerospace as specifically laid out in the story are WarShips—which is an accountable asset. Of course, I'm not talking about DropShips or other aerospace units already marked rare or extinct. What I was saying—and continue to say—is that as a whole, the universe is seeing production growth.

Since BattleTech is not about AccountantTech, the +/-2% is pretty irrelevant to the story and setting at this time. The same can be said for 3025 production numbers. While you can hypothesize that X amount in 3025 should equate to Y amount in 3145, it doesn't. I can't offer you hard numbers for production because there aren't any. If the story says that the Republic is on a building spree, then it's on a building spree. Until the story progresses further you won't know whether or not those 19.2 regiments represent the totality of production, or that the Republic has been stockpiling war material.

The point is, you're making assumptions about the current era without a complete picture. The picture being painted right now—as written in the text—says production is running rampant.

----

I can't really speak to a lot of what you wrote Dread without breach of my NDA, but I understand your frustrations. I've seen them echoed across the forums between old and new players alike. Personally, it doesn't bother me a whole lot. I don't get the opportunity to play BattleTech that often, so I care more about the setting than the game if I'm being honest.

That said, I'm fully aware of the problems facing the game system and setting as a whole. As someone who is by no means an official on the subject of game play or rules, I feel like era specific rules and tech might be one way to compartmentalize dynamically opposed fan groups, tech, rule sets, etc. That might be a better fit instead of new core rule books every X amount of years. GW went that route, and while it's easy to add new units, tech, etc., it's a rather exclusive way to grow. A more inclusive, equally supported setup sounds like a much better alternative.

Again, I'm no expert, but both options will require "retcon" to some degree that I'm not sure either is really possible. Perhaps a combination of both...

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skiltao

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Re: what's the deal with Warships?
« Reply #62 on: March 25, 2014, 04:56:06 PM »

Actually, my original response about industrial growth in the aerospace industry was directed to this post http://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/aerotech/what%27s-the-deal-with-warships/msg34420/#msg34420. Not yours.

If that was your intent, it would have been better not to include it as part of your accusations (nit picking, splitting hairs, goal post moving) against me.

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What I was saying—and continue to say—is that as a whole, the universe is seeing production growth.

You position appears to be that naval industry in 3145 is not in a position to increase warship production.

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Since BattleTech is not about AccountantTech, the +/-2% is pretty irrelevant to the story and setting at this time. The same can be said for 3025 production numbers. While you can hypothesize that X amount in 3025 should equate to Y amount in 3145, it doesn't. I can't offer you hard numbers for production because there aren't any. If the story says that the Republic is on a building spree, then it's on a building spree. Until the story progresses further you won't know whether or not those 19.2 regiments represent the totality of production, or that the Republic has been stockpiling war material.

The point is, you're making assumptions about the current era without a complete picture. The picture being painted right now—as written in the text—says production is running rampant.

Okay, I guess I do have to ask redundant questions: is it or is it not the case that Catalyst has established a certain level and intensity of conflict for the 3100s era? Is it or is it not the case that overall attrition cannot rise too high or fall too low without falling outside those established levels? Is it or is it not the case that production is balancing attrition and that excess production is directly measurable via growing number of regiments?

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I can't really speak to a lot of what you wrote Dread without breach of my NDA, but I understand your frustrations. I've seen them echoed across the forums between old and new players alike. Personally, it doesn't bother me a whole lot. I don't get the opportunity to play BattleTech that often, so I care more about the setting than the game if I'm being honest.

Here's the thing: I'm not frustrated.. I have my own solutions etc. and I'm not terrifically invested in whatever secret plan Catalyst has prepared. I know you want to push Catalyst's solution as The One True Solution but that shouldn't make everybody else's assessments irrelevant or impossible.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 04:56:35 PM by skiltao »
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Blacknova

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Re: what's the deal with Warships?
« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2014, 05:16:43 PM »

Everyone might have their own solutions, but in the end Catalyst's will be the one true one, as they have the license to make the game.
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Re: what's the deal with Warships?
« Reply #64 on: March 25, 2014, 05:45:53 PM »

What I was saying—and continue to say—is that as a whole, the universe is seeing production growth.

You position appears to be that naval industry in 3145 is not in a position to increase warship production.



As noted in the same paragraph: "The poster believed aerospace assets were becoming or are increasingly rare—they're not. The only real rarity in aerospace as specifically laid out in the story are WarShips—which is an accountable asset. Of course, I'm not talking about DropShips or other aerospace units already marked rare or extinct. What I was saying—and continue to say—is that as a whole, the universe is seeing production growth."

Okay, I guess I do have to ask redundant questions: is it or is it not the case that Catalyst has established a certain level and intensity of conflict for the 3100s era? Is it or is it not the case that overall attrition cannot rise too high or fall too low without falling outside those established levels? Is it or is it not the case that production is balancing attrition and that excess production is directly measurable via growing number of regiments?

Short answer: No. If by established intensity you mean the Victoria War, the Capellan Crusades, the 2nd Combine-Dominion War all took place in the early 3100s, then yes, those conflicts have been established. As for established levels, I'm not sure what you're getting at? Levels of what?

Production and attrition vs. growing number of regiments can be faction specific. One of the main reasons why attrition and excess production are not directly linked to growing new regiments is directly related to the table top game. Whatever you need as a player is available and faction growth is directly related to plot needs. Generally speaking, the correlation is really only applicable to a few unit types—WarShips for one—because as I mentioned earlier, they're numbered. 

Here's the thing: I'm not frustrated.. I have my own solutions etc. and I'm not terrifically invested in whatever secret plan Catalyst has prepared. I know you want to push Catalyst's solution as The One True Solution but that shouldn't make everybody else's assessments irrelevant or impossible.

Not quite. Please refer to the remainder of my post.

....That said, I'm fully aware of the problems facing the game system and setting as a whole. As someone who is by no means an official on the subject of game play or rules, I feel like era specific rules and tech might be one way to compartmentalize dynamically opposed fan groups, tech, rule sets, etc. That might be a better fit instead of new core rule books every X amount of years. GW went that route, and while it's easy to add new units, tech, etc., it's a rather exclusive way to grow. A more inclusive, equally supported setup sounds like a much better alternative.

Again, I'm no expert, but both options will require "retcon" to some degree that I'm not sure either is really possible. Perhaps a combination of both...

Not only was I in agreement with some of Dread's suggestions, I was offering personal suggestions based on actual professional experience in the game industry. At no point did I say his assessments were irrelevant or impossible. Do I foresee a great deal of difficulty in breaking from the established setup? Absolutely. Is there inherent risk to making massive changes to game play and rule set? Absolutely. Is it relevant to point both of those things out? I believe it's required to make an informed decision. If you're skin isn't thick enough to deal with a potentially negative response you're clearly not suited to the type of collaborative development this requires. Just because you didn't like what you heard, doesn't mean I found Dread's assessment irrelevant. Quite the contrary.

This isn't a high horse, but most people tend to forget that BattleTech is a business. If it doesn't generate money, it ceases to exist. This means catering to the largest percent who will enjoy and buy the game. Aerospace only players and aerospace only fans are in the minority. It doesn't mean BattleTech should ignore or marginalize them, but it means that the cost v. benefit analysis will be more heavily scrutinized. Will aerospace fans take their money elsewhere if BattleTech doesn't "bring back" the WarShip? Maybe, but it may be more cost effective for BattleTech to just let them leave. I honestly don't know, and I'm happy I'm not in a position to have to make that kind of decision.

In the case of WarShips it "seems" like we're in the middle of a lull. With the number of vessels currently active and the state of their support apparatus in the current universe, the unit has been effectively reduced to a plot element. It doesn't mean they're gone, it just means their meaningful numbers are only enough to support the current plot. Does this mean they're dead? I have no idea.

Optimistically, it could mean we've reached a baseline from which we can figure out how to correct both gameplay and future universe issues before reintroducing the unit back to levels which take it out of plot element and into the realm of your average BattleMech regiment. Assuming, of course, we can find the right solutions to our problems. 

Pessimistically, this could very well be the functional end of the WarShip. It will remain a plot element, but dwindle until the unit isn't even relevant for that job. I just don't know. All of us will just have to wait and see. 

 
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skiltao

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Re: what's the deal with Warships?
« Reply #65 on: March 25, 2014, 07:56:47 PM »

Everyone might have their own solutions, but in the end Catalyst's will be the one true one, as they have the license to make the game.

CGL's license does not invalidate observations about existing data, nor does it bestow on CGL some exclusive talent for analyzing issues of game or universe design.

As noted in the same paragraph: "The poster believed aerospace assets were becoming or are increasingly rare—they're not. The only real rarity in aerospace as specifically laid out in the story are WarShips—which is an accountable asset. Of course, I'm not talking about DropShips or other aerospace units already marked rare or extinct. What I was saying—and continue to say—is that as a whole, the universe is seeing production growth."

My apologies for forgetting that; I guess I'm just confused about why you mentioned the aerospace industry in response to an assertion about attrition and force size?

[EDIT: don't get me wrong, I know this sentence here sounds silly in a discussion about WarShips. But there is an intrinsic relationship between attrition and production, and BattleTech treats 'Mech production as a reliable proxy for military industry as a whole. An *absence* of conflicting aero stats cannot invalidate that. (There may be an argument to be made for civilian shipping, but that's not a simple issue.) Regardless, if we go back to the point that spawned this line of discussion, I think you'd agree that the earlier 3100-3135 period might accommodate 3SW-style gentlemanly clashes between WarShips.]

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Short answer: No. If by established intensity you mean the Victoria War, the Capellan Crusades, the 2nd Combine-Dominion War all took place in the early 3100s, then yes, those conflicts have been established. As for established levels, I'm not sure what you're getting at? Levels of what?

Production and attrition vs. growing number of regiments can be faction specific.

"Levels" as in how often variously sized forces tend to be involved in combat, during and between each of those wars. "Intensity" as in an approximate death rate for 'Mechs involved in combat, during and between each of those wars, as described in individual stories and seen in how characters react in the fiction, and so on. (Yes, these numbers may vary by faction.)

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One of the main reasons why attrition and excess production are not directly linked to growing new regiments is directly related to the table top game. Whatever you need as a player is available and faction growth is directly related to plot needs. Generally speaking, the correlation is really only applicable to a few unit types—WarShips for one—because as I mentioned earlier, they're numbered. 

Newly produced 'Mechs might be diverted more quickly to active combat, thereby keeping their population down and allowing older designs to survive; being vague about the distribution of designs might make attrition harder to calculate per design, but it does nothing to affect the overall rate of attrition.

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Not only was I in agreement with some of Dread's suggestions, I was offering personal suggestions based on actual professional experience in the game industry. At no point did I say his assessments were irrelevant or impossible.

I am not talking about how you responded to Dread. If you need me to point out examples, I can.

[EDIT: as for the rest of your post, about the business risks and uncertain future, I basically agree. You or someone else said much the same thing near the beginning of the thread; I don't think repeating it adds anything to the ongoing discussion, but I understand it may be the best response your NDA allows.]
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 04:53:10 PM by skiltao »
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JPArbiter

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Re: what's the deal with Warships?
« Reply #66 on: March 25, 2014, 09:48:17 PM »

I gotta chime in as well on something and I feel this bears repeating over and over again.

In Fiction Limitations on fleet sizes have ZERO bearing on fleets you can play in private games.  to use an example from a competitors game, a Space Marine "Chapter" is composed of 10 companies Plus Support, equating to approximatly 1,000 Space Marines, just as many non Astartes Recruits,  and Serfs.

but what is to keep you from fielding a chapter of 2700 marines? (Economics of 40K aside).

fictional limitations do not equate to limitations on the tabletop outside of official events.  if you want to go to the time, effort, and energy to have a multiple squadron on multiple squadron throwdown, or recreate the entire invasion of terra... Be my Guest.  NOTHING is stopping players from thier full warship glory

Heck play a game that has Fox Corvettes escorting Defenders!
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Re: what's the deal with Warships?
« Reply #67 on: March 25, 2014, 10:21:19 PM »

Heck play a game that has Fox Corvettes escorting Defenders!

Funny you should say that...
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Re: what's the deal with Warships?
« Reply #68 on: March 26, 2014, 04:06:16 PM »

but what is to keep you from fielding a chapter of 2700 marines? (Economics of 40K aside).

Some of them field more, much more.
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