Topic: Primitive 'Mechs (Read 23486 times)

Knightmare · « **on:** March 04, 2011, 02:38:31 PM »

So here's a question - Why weren't Primitive 'Mechs built during the Succession Wars?

My theory is that Primitive 'Mechs, while easier to produce with less sophisticated materials and technologies require a fairly well developed industrial manufacturing infrastructure in place to be available/worthwhile.

So here's how it works. The Succession Wars ruin whole sectors of the layered industrial manufacturing infrastructure of the various Great Houses. To maintain production of BattleMechs, the remaining manufacturing infrastructure has to realign its pyramid to fit the new scheme. This infrastructure is patchy, thin and extremely limited, but surviving 'Mech factories and foundries have to realign to maintain basic production of standard BattleMechs at pre-existing facilities. The alternative is that these 'Mech factories revert to building Primitive BattleMechs - which seems silly. If you have extremely limited resources, or resources that can not convert (like Corean's Valkyrie Factory) you make the most out of what's available.

This situation changes after the Helm Core restarts redevelopment of the Successor States' industrial manufacturing infrastructure. Not only do military industries expand, but so do civilian industries. As these layered infrastructures grow and begin to overlap (a sign of a healthy manufacturing economy) manufacturing sites/resources that were once limited and directed to specific centers for the production of standard BattleMechs are now represented by dozens or more representations. It's not exactly "excess" industrial manufacturing power, but in effect - is.

When the Jihad starts whacking known BattleMech factories with tactical nukes, the excess in military/civilian industries, which were not directly necessary for the production of BattleMechs could be realigned to produce Primitive machines. Alternatively, the military/civilian industries that are directed to the production of BattleMechs can be capped at their terminal end when their target factory is taken offline - also providing a location to produce Primitive 'Mechs.

To summarize, which out an expansion of the Successor State's industrial and manufacturing base, the reintroduction of production of Primitve BattleMechs would not have occurred and is why no such occurrence took place during the Succession Wars.

Thoughts?

Blacknova · « **Reply #1 on:** March 04, 2011, 03:14:21 PM »

Seems plausible.

Ice Hellion · « **Reply #2 on:** March 04, 2011, 03:29:53 PM »

Interesting but you might also add that the Primitive 'Mechs are not as efficient as modern ones.

What would be the killing ratio?

Knightmare · « **Reply #3 on:** March 04, 2011, 03:52:50 PM »

Quote from: Ice Hellion on March 04, 2011, 03:29:53 PM

Interesting but you might also add that the Primitive 'Mechs are not as efficient as modern ones.

What would be the killing ratio?

It's not really a question of effectiveness or kill/death ratio, but rather why Primitive BattleMechs weren't constructed during the Succession Wars. Clearly, Primitive BattleMechs are slightly less complicated to manufacture, but ultimately the decision maker isn't their effectiveness in combat or ease of manufacture, but rather the ability to manufacture when resource, choice and overall availability to manufacture is limited.

lrose · « **Reply #4 on:** March 04, 2011, 07:48:31 PM »

Quote from: Knightmare on March 04, 2011, 03:52:50 PM

It's not really a question of effectiveness or kill/death ratio, but rather why Primitive BattleMechs weren't constructed during the Succession Wars. Clearly, Primitive BattleMechs are slightly less complicated to manufacture, but ultimately the decision maker isn't their effectiveness in combat or ease of manufacture, but rather the ability to manufacture when resource, choice and overall availability to manufacture is limited.

I would also think there is a connection to Industrialmech manufacturers- IIRC it was mentioned in one of the SBs that many of the primitives are being built by Industrialmech factories that have been converted to build these mechs. One of the benefits of the Helm Core and the recovery of lostech, was the construction of many new civilian products factories- including industrialmech factories. The availability of those factories in the 3070s, combined with the pressing need for battlemechs- any battlemechs, has lead the to rise of the primitive mechs - since it is easier to convert the lines to build primitives rather then modern battlemechs. In the SW era, there were so few industrialmech factories left that they were probably more valuable building industrialmechs, rather then poor battlemechs. (also during the SW era the houses could and did draw on stockpiles of older mechs - by the 3070s those stockpiles were largely depleted.)

Rainbow 6 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 05, 2011, 07:03:58 AM »

Got agree with what Irose says above.

I do wonder though why states like the Marian Hegemony or Oberon Confederation weren't looking at building primitives in the 3020's though.

Knightmare · « **Reply #6 on:** March 05, 2011, 09:28:33 AM »

No organic production facilities of their own.

Ice Hellion · « **Reply #7 on:** March 05, 2011, 03:37:21 PM »

Quote from: Knightmare on March 04, 2011, 03:52:50 PM

Primitive BattleMechs are slightly less complicated to manufacture, but ultimately the decision maker isn't their effectiveness in combat or ease of manufacture, but rather the ability to manufacture when resource, choice and overall availability to manufacture is limited.

Basic resource allocation problem.
The answer is build the best thing from what limited resources you might have.

Rainbow 6 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 05, 2011, 04:39:32 PM »

Quote from: Knightmare on March 05, 2011, 09:28:33 AM

No organic production facilities of their own.

True but both were supposed to be improving industry wise in 3025 so why not aim to build 'age of war' era battlemechs?

lrose · « **Reply #9 on:** March 05, 2011, 04:47:19 PM »

Quote from: Rainbow 6 on March 05, 2011, 04:39:32 PM

Quote from: Knightmare on March 05, 2011, 09:28:33 AM
No organic production facilities of their own.

True but both were supposed to be improving industry wise in 3025 so why not aim to build 'age of war' era battlemechs?

There's still a huge step from where they were (no major industrial capability) to building battlemechs. It would be like saying to a third world country that can't even build cars, TVs or radios to start building M4 Sherman tanks. Sure the Sherman is 50 years out of date but that doesn't make them any easier to build when you don't even have the factories to build the tools that are needed to build the M4. The Hegemony building the Gladius Tank was a step in the right direction, once you can build the Gladius you can then look at building a fusion powered tank and from there building battlemechs.

Knightmare · « **Reply #10 on:** March 06, 2011, 09:01:39 PM »

What Irose says is essentially true (actually, it's 100% true, but essentially just sounds fun.) This can leave factions without organic manufacturing capabilities at a disadvantage. Sure, someday they may be able to construct the industrial capability to build top-end military products (like BattleMechs, Primitives, or even Industrial 'Mechs) but, it takes time, resources and technical knowledge that might not be available.

For the AoC - there are a few Periphery nations that fall into this category.

Knightmare · « **Reply #11 on:** July 21, 2011, 11:01:41 PM »

So, I'm circling back to this topic in light of some playability issues that have cropped up - namely a faction's inability to resupply units damaged or lost in combat. I'm thinking that no matter what, every faction should be capable of producing at least something besides infantry units.

For game purposes I'd break unit levels down by Tech (why reinvent the wheel?)

RetroTech - 0.5
Standard - 1.0
Advanced - 1.5
Royal - 2.0

Thoughts? It'd mean possibly coming up with some new factories/companies, but that's about it.

Blacknova · « **Reply #12 on:** July 22, 2011, 12:54:53 AM »

Personally, as you have had what amounts to a drak age, I'd go:

RetroTech - 1
Standard - 2
Advanced - 4
Royal - 8

But then is depends on how scarce you want advanced technology to be.

Knightmare · « **Reply #13 on:** July 22, 2011, 01:41:35 PM »

Actually, that works a lot better. I was thinking of the yet-to-be-named KU stuff we've been working on and how you've arranged their militaries. I've used the 1 Company per world as the yardstick, and then modified from there.

I had to redraw some state lines on the map, but not by much - mostly within the old Hegemony. Since there's only a little writing left I've been delving more and more into game dynamics to help flesh out the other factions.

Seems like every time I get close there's another question that needs an answer.

Blacknova · « **Reply #14 on:** July 22, 2011, 06:43:19 PM »

I found that when preparing the KU, that is why I started opening it up. Those little problems work themselves out alot quicker when you have to make quick decisions in the open and not obsess about them on your own.

OBT Forum

News:

Author Topic: Primitive 'Mechs (Read 23486 times)

Knightmare

Primitive 'Mechs

Blacknova

Re: Primitive 'Mechs

Ice Hellion

Re: Primitive 'Mechs

Knightmare

Re: Primitive 'Mechs

lrose

Re: Primitive 'Mechs

Rainbow 6

Re: Primitive 'Mechs

Knightmare

Re: Primitive 'Mechs

Ice Hellion

Re: Primitive 'Mechs

Rainbow 6

Re: Primitive 'Mechs

lrose

Re: Primitive 'Mechs

Knightmare

Re: Primitive 'Mechs

Knightmare

Re: Primitive 'Mechs

Blacknova

Re: Primitive 'Mechs

Knightmare

Re: Primitive 'Mechs

Blacknova

Re: Primitive 'Mechs