OBT Forum
General BattleTech => Canon Inspired => Historicals => Topic started by: Trace Coburn on March 01, 2011, 08:00:42 PM
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I spent a couple of hours combing through references in '58U, '50U, '75 and Historical: Operation KLONDIKE and used those to (longhand!) compile a list of units that employed advanced THAF technologies, then cross-referenced those with the status of the planet where those units were made (mainly who had seized which worlds by the end of the First Succession War). Now, assuming that all of the advanced technologies were installed (if not actually made) at the factories where these units were made, I came up with the following table, which shows which Successor State might have recovered examples or technical data from those factories, either through espionage during the Star League/Amaris Civil War era or when they annexed these worlds and factories from the Hegemony in 1SW. (The first number of 'standard' advanced units as seen in TRO2750 or '58U, the second is Royal machines from '50U, '75, or Klondike.)
CapCon DraCom FedSuns F.W.L. LyrCom
ERPPC 1 + 1 1 + 0 1 + 1 0 + 2 2 + 2
ERLL 0 + 2 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 0 1 + 2
LPL 0 + 0 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 3 0 + 3
MPL 3 + 2 0 + 0 1 + 2 0 + 3 1 + 5
SPL 0 + 0 0 + 0 0 + 0 0 + 0 0 + 1
G.R. 1 + 1 0 + 0 3 + 0 0 + 0 4 + 4
LB10X 2 + 0 0 + 0 0 + 0 0 + 0 1 + 0
UAC/5 0 + 0 0 + 0 0 + 0 0 + 0 1 + 1
AMS 1 + 0 1 + 0 0 + 1 0 + 0 1 + 0
SSRM 1 + 1 0 + 0 0 + 0 0 + 1 1 + 1
ART-IV 2 + 1 0 + 0 0 + 0 1 + 2 3 + 6
NARC 0 + 0 0 + 0 0 + 0 0 + 0 0 + 0
MASC 0 + 0 0 + 0 0 + 0 1 + 1 0 + 0
TAG 0 + 1 0 + 0 0 + 0 0 + 0 0 + 1
BAP 1 + 0 1 + 0 0 + 0 1 + 1 0 + 0
GECM 0 + 0 0 + 0 0 + 0 0 + 0 2 + 0
ES 0 + 1 3 + 0 0 + 0 4 + 0 3 + 6
FFA 3 + 0 0 + 0 0 + 1 0 + 0 1 + 3
XLFE 6 + 3 1 + 2 2 + 4 2 + 5 8 +10
DHS 3 + 3 1 + 2 2 + 4 2 + 5 7 + 7
FAA 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 4 1 + 1 1 + 4
CASE 4 + 1 3 + 0 0 + 0 3 + 1 5 + 3
These table does not include:
- units made on Terra itself (including the Ost family)
- units whose primary site of manufacture/Royal-refit I can't trace definitively, including the LCT-1Vb, STG-3Gb, GRF-2N, SHD-2Hb, TDR-5Sb, ARC02Rb, WHM-7A, STK-3Fb, CRD-2R, WHM-6Rb, MAD-1R, MAD-2R, and BLR-1Gb.
Even with the caveats noted above, if each unit represents a discrete chance for the Great Houses to recover one or more pieces of advanced BattleTech from the Hegemony either by espionage before or during the Civil War, or main force during 1SW ... well, the shape of the Succession Wars might have been quite different if they'd managed to start building this gear themselves and get it into the field in useful numbers. ::)
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That is some nice work.
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That is some nice work.
Also raises some questions, yes? I mean, some of these units had been in production in House territory for centuries by the time of the Coup, yet they never once managed to plant an intelligence officer in one of those factories to download specs and blueprints for replication elsewhere? Never made sure a shipment of certain components (or finished goods!) got diverted/lost/'seized by pirates' so they could reverse-engineer them? And they never once backed up the blueprints and specs elsewhere, so that when teh factories were blown away, so was the know-how involved in building their products?
Y'know, I'm strongly inclined to think that the Terran Hegemont was running its own Operation HOLY SHROUD during the pre-Amaris era, long before ComStar ever got the idea....
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In effect it was with the Prometheus Prgrom, anti-export for hi tech legislation and active progams designed at maintaining its technological superiority.
What always got me was the fact the the TH's first Mech production facility was in Lyran space on Hesperus II. Terra wuold have been the logical choice, or the backwoods of Mars. I think we may well see some creative retconning regarding those issues.
Additionally, the TH may have activly "encouraged" the other nations to hand back anything that was taken through creative trade embargos?
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Honestly Trace, it might be where ComStar found its inspiration for the Holy Shroud missions...
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In effect it was with the Prometheus Prgrom, anti-export for hi tech legislation and active progams designed at maintaining its technological superiority.
What always got me was the fact the the TH's first Mech production facility was in Lyran space on Hesperus II. Terra wuold have been the logical choice, or the backwoods of Mars. I think we may well see some creative retconning regarding those issues.
Additionally, the TH may have activly "encouraged" the other nations to hand back anything that was taken through creative trade embargos?
Now that's not entirely true Black. Skobel was on Terra.
But if there's one thing the SLSB touches on, but never really expands upon is the power of the Hegemony economy. Both before and certainly during the Star League it was the center piece of the whole system. Raw resources went it, finished products went out. Take into consideration the advanced equipment the Hegemony provided the member-states so they could colonize some of their less hospitable worlds and just maybe, in some ways, the Hegemony had the Great Houses by the proverbial "shorts."
It's not a full explanation, but could be supportive.
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Fair enough, but Hesperus II, that was one poor piece of fact checking.
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Fair enough, but Hesperus II, that was one poor piece of fact checking.
For realz.
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I mean, some of these units had been in production in House territory for centuries by the time of the Coup, yet they never once managed to plant an intelligence officer in one of those factories to download specs and blueprints for replication elsewhere? Never made sure a shipment of certain components (or finished goods!) got diverted/lost/'seized by pirates' so they could reverse-engineer them? And they never once backed up the blueprints and specs elsewhere, so that when teh factories were blown away, so was the know-how involved in building their products?
Who said they didn't manage to do it?
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I mean, some of these units had been in production in House territory for centuries by the time of the Coup, yet they never once managed to plant an intelligence officer in one of those factories to download specs and blueprints for replication elsewhere? Never made sure a shipment of certain components (or finished goods!) got diverted/lost/'seized by pirates' so they could reverse-engineer them? And they never once backed up the blueprints and specs elsewhere, so that when the factories were blown away, so was the know-how involved in building their products?
Who said they didn't manage to do it?
Actively said? Admittedly: no-one. It's inferential. :-[
However, it's hard to avoid drawing that conclusion when you consider the fact that we've seen no evidence of knowledge or production of these technologies proliferating beyond facilities that were solely dedicated to supplying the SLDF. Or the fact that those technologies and the knowledge-base behind them were still localised enough for the Succession Wars (and ComStar) to eradicate without knocking every last world in the Inner Sphere back down to the level of bearskins and clubs. Being on the Internet, we all know how fast and far information can proliferate, and technical toys like DHS are memes just like any other: d'you think nuking 4chan's servers would destroy all knowledge of "All Your Base"? ???
Hell, the exact details of nuclear fission were among the United States' most fiercely guarded military secrets of last century, and data-proliferation was mainly by voice or snail-mail. Nonetheless, once the Soviet Union - the U.S.'s mortal enemy of the time - had seen Little Boy and Fat Man in action, they managed to steal and weaponise those secrets in less than a decade. Less than forty years after that, the only thing preventing high school science projects from making a loud radioactive bang was a lack of access to fissile material! :o
To a certain extent, I'll grant there's reason to believe the Houses might have been, erm, 'extremely circumspect' about any visible effort to match or duplicate SLDF technology during the Star League era - between the Mother Doctrine restricting tech export, economic reprisals for IP infringements, and (inferred) black ops by Hegemony intelligence agencies nobbling House R&D, I can just about buy an effective 'lock-out' on the Houses putting THAF weapons and technologies into widespread production and use, though whether they'd managed to get the hardware production-ready remains open to debate. But once Amaris pulled the Coup, Hegemony intelligence had bigger fish to fry than restricting House R&D efforts, and General Kerensky actually had to give away SLDF technology to the Houses in order to keep his forces moving towards Terra!
Hell, I can even understand the Houses holding off on duplicating/producing Hegemony hardware for their own advantage during the Civil War itself: they weren't sure who'd win, and while they knew Kerensky would have tried to annex expanded production for his own needs, there's no way of knowing what the hell Amaris would've done to them if he'd pulled off a win.
But in the period between the end of the Civil War and the Exodus, when everybody knew that a war between the Houses was all but inevitable, when the Hegemony's bureaucracies and government agencies were gutted wrecks, when its economy was in ruins, its leadership was dead or broken, and its military was a shadow of its former self, all bets were off... yet we have no evidence in canon that the Great Houses built even one new factory for one new piece of technology prior to the outbreak of 1SW. I know, I know: lack of evidence is not evidence of lack, and they might very well have done so in places that canon carefully hasn't looked yet. (I know that's the approach I'm going to pursue in the wider universe of The Virginia War.) But the fact remains that TTBOMK, every canonical facility that produced advanced hardware has been specifically called out as having been built by the Hegemony and building its equipment for the Hegemony.
Example: the EMP-6A Emperor, built on Menke and St. Ives since 2612. Featured technologies: XLFE, DHS, LB-10X autocannon, MPL, CASE. The Maskirovka has never been known for its reluctance to spend blood and treasure for the Celestial Throne, yet somehow, between December 2766 and the destruction of those factories during the Second Succession War - a period of more than six decades, during which those factories were still producing, TTBOMK! - despite those factories still being in active production of Emperors, despite the CCAF having actual physical examples of this hardware and the production tooling to make it to work from, they never managed to get any of those technologies into production elsewhere in the CapCon? I know the Cappies were hurting for industrial capacity, but that much? ???
Example: the CTS-6Y Cestus, built by GM on Kathil from 2766 until the factory (production line?) was destroyed at the start of 2SW. Featured technologies: XLFE, DHS, GR. Yet it's not until the incident on Hoff in the early 3020s that we have any canonical mention of House Davion experimenting with DHS technology.
Example: the Rapier aerospace fighter, built on Tharkad since 2596, and AFAWK that was the only factory to ever make them. Featured technologies: DHS, XLFE (Royal only), LPL (Royal only), Artemis-IV (Royal only), CASE (Royal only), MPL (Royal only). While the absence of pulse-lasers or Artemis might be explained by those items being installed after delivery to the SLDF, it's kind of hard to build a spaceframe without an engine (or its integral heat-sinks), yet the Lyrans don't appear to have built their own facilities to make DHS (or XLFEs).
Now, don't get me wrong: I'm not advocating a rewrite of canon to show the House armies of the Succession Wars era fielding huge swathes of IS2 tech, much less of Royal-quality machines, except maybe as an illustration of how far down the Succession Wars dragged them. Personally, I find something viscerally appealing in 'old-school' 'Mechs, despite their tactical limitations in game-play, and if the story I felt compelled to write was purely IS1 technology, I'd probably derive great pleasure from telling that story. However, the story-concept that called to me was one of exploring the reasons why advanced BattleTech didn't proliferate during the Star League era, and what happens when external restrictions on technological advancement come off.
I'm simply saying that recent sourcebooks have revealed a lot of specifics as to how widely-spread IS2-grade battlefield technology actually was before the Succession Wars, and that wide spread has logical implications for the technological progress of both weaponry itself and of the greater BT universe. Anyone wishing to write a BT alternate timeline - particularly one with a point-of-digression before Operation Holy Shroud, like mine does in the stories of The Virginia War - needs to be aware of that technological proliferation and the impact it could have on the development of your timeline. Whether any given writer chooses to incorporate such a spread of technology, or find a way to write it out again and go back to 'old school BT', is a creative choice they must make for themselves.
Or they could just say "LOL logic =/= BattleTech ROFL" and write about big stompy robots blowing pieces off each other. ;D
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After that I can only say, "thank you voice of reason!" Well said Trace!
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Perhaps the chassis were built on those worlds and then shipped for Terra for final assembly. Its a stretch I know, but just another option.
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That's another problem with the inevitable retcon of earlier sources - it inevitably raises even more questions.
Consider for a moment the two Historicals slated for development: Reunification War & Liberation
Theoretically, between the two we should learn the answers to some of these questions, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
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Imagine factories in the different future Successor States but with employees coming from the Terran Hegemony, strict surveillance and limited contacts with the outside world or access to high tech.
Also don't forget that the main R&D centres were in the Terran Hegemony, the Successor States ones were just trying to cope with a 2 generations delay.
And I guess the Successor States had not the manpower, tech, money to build new factories at the same time they were absorbing the Terran Hegemony factories and tech while increasing the size of their armies.
And I also do think that they believed in a "short and happy war."
Those are just my two euro cents in this debate.
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The short, happy war option sounds likely.
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The high tech version of WWI?...
Hmm...that's an interesting thought. I'm certain the 150+ years of peace didn't help, or rather helped foster that ideology.
If we play the generation game, at the start of the First Succession War, the oldest and smallest percentage of adults will have been born into the second or third generation of Star League babies. So on the outs we're looking at a super late second and aging third generation born under the Golden Age "Peace" in service or positions of power prior to the First Succession War.
Here's how it works (again, just a generalization on generations and population percentages.) You figure at the height of the Golden Age, the average life expectancy was roughly 121 years circa 2700...so the oldest individuals alive at the beginning of the First Succession War were born at the start of the Star League "Pax." However, we know that average life expectancy doesn't equal active either. Also keep in mind that the further you are from Terra and the Hegemony, the lower that number drops. (According to JHS:Terra, the life expectancy of a Terran - even in 3078 is super high) So for the bulk of the Succession States let's be generous and say the average life expectancy of a citizen of a Member-State to hover around what the SLSB states as fact: 121 years.
So by 2800 we're talking about an absurd number of middle aged (by Star League standards) people (in positions of power throughout the Member-States) who haven't a bloody clue what real warfare is all about. On the extreme, maybe the last generation to experience real conflict would be their long dead great-grandfather.
You figure the youngest soldier in the Reunification War was born around 2575 - I rounded down for simplicity. So a twenty year old soldier saw about three years of combat (an 18 year old, 5 years.) Say this soldier lives to be about 90-100. When he dies his kids will have heard the stories and seen the effects, but their kids - born towards the start of the Star League's Golden Century won't won't know a thing about it. Then their kids are likely to be born around the the turn of the century (say 2700.) This is the generation likely to be easing their way into being in "charge" towards the end of the Star League, with their children either fighting as officers at the start of the First Succession War and their children likely filling the rank and file (so the fifth generation.)
Now this is some really broad math. We're talking about a generation every 40 years rather than 20 and the "extreme" norm. In reality from 2600 to 2760 there could be something like eight generations. However, the point is not how many generations born, but which ones would be within one or two generations of actual conflict.
That being said, with at least two full length life terms between the Reunification War and the start of the First Succession War it's safe to say the people in charge hadn't the foggiest what they were in for. Even the War of Davion Succession was barely a taste. It could certainly be considered a self contained incident - definitely not enough to dissuade a House Lord from believing war would be anything but idealized.
It's not an excuse for stupidity, (as history shows) but for some reason continues to happen. For some reason, when people "forget" about the horrors of war they seem to be in a hurry to relearn all about it...
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Interesting thoughts.
You might add that military theories and doctrines are difficult/long to change (just look at the fire vs shock discussions that raged for centuries and the difficulties to adapt the doctrines prior to WWI to take into account the Boer War).
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That is not just plausible, it is historicaly accurate. Humans are idiots.
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Yes, yes we are.
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That is not just plausible, it is historicaly accurate. Humans are idiots.
Human groups are idiots while individuals can be clever.
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Interesting thoughts.
You might add that military theories and doctrines are difficult/long to change (just look at the fire vs shock discussions that raged for centuries and the difficulties to adapt the doctrines prior to WWI to take into account the Boer War).
If you want to see more about that, read On Infantry
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I think the accurate phrase is: "A person is smart, people are dumb, scared and prone to idiotic mistakes."
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I think the accurate phrase is: "A person is smart, people are dumb, scared and prone to idiotic mistakes."
:)
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Okay, this is a really old topic, but I just finished data-mining ER:2750's Museum Technica section. Only major manufacturers are explicitly called out in the text, but there's a lot you can read between the lines. If TPTBs are trying to make us realise the heights the Star League enjoyed before their precipitous plunge during the 'Mad Max' phase of the Succession Wars, they're doing a pretty good job, IMO. 8) Hell, they've done such a good job that it's actually put a couple of holes in some of my plans for the wider aspects of the Virginia War, but doing that hasty patchwork is actually kind'a fun in itself.... ;D
ERLL: “The ER large laser was widely produced across known space during the Star League. One of the major producers was Lushannâ€
> FWL (Diverse Optics), Outworlds (Lushann Industrials Ltd.)
Pulse Lasers: “The complex nature of the interlinking capacitors and control circuitry limited production to corporations with the most advanced laser production facilities. Beyond Terra, these manufacturers included:â€
> FS (Precision Weaponry/Tancredi IV), FWL (Diverse Optics), Outworlds (Lushann Industrials Ltd.)
Gauss Rifle: “The zero-gravity production techniques for making the superconducting coils limited the corporations and realms that could easily produce the Gauss rifle, but ground based manufacture of the weapon system was feasible. A dozen manufacturers across the Terran system, as well as Yankee Weapons systems of New Earth, produced the Gauss rifle for the SLDF. Across the rest of the Inner Sphere, Norse-Storm Technologies of Loxley, and Johnson Industries of New Syrtis were other major manufacturers.â€
> FS (Johnson Industries/New Syrtis), LC (Norse-Storm Technologies/Loxley)
LB-10X: “By 2680, the LB 10-X was being built in every Star League member state. The major non-Terran producers ... produced limited numbers of these weapons for export even to the Periphery statesâ€
> FS (Mydron Corporation), FWL (Oriente Weapon Works)
UAC/5: “The perceived failure of this weapon system made security around its design lax, and it quickly spread across the Inner Sphere and Periphery. Major non-Terran producers of the UAC/5 included General Motors of Kathil and Arc-Royal, Armstrong Weapons of Sterope and Dunianshire, and Imperator Automatic Weapons of Atreus.â€
> FS (General Motors/Kathil), FWL (Imperator Automatic Weapons/Atreus), LC (General Motors/Arc-Royal), MoC (Armstrong Weapons/Dunianshire), TC (Armstrong Weapons/Sterope)
AMS: “... the ease at which the old Phalanx idea was modified allowed the rest of the major powers of the Inner Sphere to quickly develop their own models. By 2750, the major producers of the AMS system included Blankenburg Technologies of Terra, Cal-Boeing in the Federated Suns, and Earthwerks, Inc of the Capellan Confederation.â€
> CC (EarthWerks Inc.), FS (Cal-Boeing)
SSRM: “The Holly Streak system was one of the most widespread brands in use ... the technology spread to the Federated Suns, Free Worlds League, and the Magistracy of Canopus. The second most popular brand of Streak launchers came from Hovertec, who produced these weapons for the Capellan Confederation, Free Worlds League, and the Lyran Commonwealth’s Federation of Skye.â€
> CC (Hovertec), FS (Holly), FWL (Holly, Hovertec), LC (Hovertec/Skye), MoC (Holly)
BAP: “The primary manufacturer, Clear Sight, Inc. of Luna, was able to keep up with all purchases from the HAF, while minor manufacturers across the Inner Sphere — such as Imstar Aerospace and Diplan Electronics — fulfilled the demands from the Great Houses.â€
CASE: “The complex network of cells and the construction of the diamond-fiber material for CASE limited the production of the equipment outside of the Terran Hegemony.â€
(Personally, I call BULLSHIT on this one, but that's just me)
DHS: “The ease with which the double heat sink can be built ensured that even the poorest Periphery world had the ability to produce it for its armed forces so long as the endo-steel frame for the heat sink was available.â€
ES: “... as late as 2750, the majority of all endo-steel production remained in Terra’s asteroid belt, and was used almost exclusively by the SLDF. Minor manufacturers in all of the Great Houses nevertheless struggled to keep up with demand, including Buckboard Ltd. of the Free Worlds League, and Tunguska Industries of the Draconis Combine.â€
> DC (Tunguska Industries), FWL (Buckboard Ltd.)
FFA: “As of 2750, few manufacturers outside of the Terran Hegemony had the complex and highly advanced production facilities needed to integrate diamond fiber into steel without the diamond dissolving into less effective carbides. The primary producers were Krupp Armament Works in the Terra system, Corean Enterprises of New Avalon (which produced the StarGuard brand ferro-fibrous under a Hegemony license), and Hellespont ’Mech Works of the Capellan Confederation.â€
> CC (Hellespont Mech Works), FS (Corean Enterprises/New Avalon)
GECM: “The Guardian ECM Suite found its way out of the Terran Hegemony before the end of the Star League. What frustrated the Great Houses and the Periphery nations was that the highly adaptable software needed to operate the Guardian required constant patching and custom recoding for each model of BattleMech it was installed in. The massive computer complexes available to the Terran Hegemony made this a trivial issue, but for the rest of the Inner Sphere it was time consuming.â€
TAG: “TAG, while complex, was fairly straightforward to produce and install on both vehicles and BattleMechs, though it was rarely seen due to the scarcity of TAG-enabled munitions.â€
XLFE: “Covert operations from all the Great Houses were able to obtain XL engine technology by the end of the twenty-sixth century.â€
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I think the double heat sink thing was a beautiful touch. "Everybody can make these things, but pretty much only the Hegemony has the necessary endo steel." If I had my druthers, I'd retcon XL engines to require endo-steel somewhere in the process, like DHS require the endo-steel frame. That one little change does a lot to explain why the tech didn't spread as much as one might think.
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After reading the AMS entry I question how it was lost at all
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In the matter of CASE I'll bet it was the SLDF Royal Command doing it's level best to botch, nix, and outright slaughter anybody else that even thought about acquiring it.
It's such a nifty little add on that drastically increases the battle field survival of any ammo dependant mech equiped with it.