OBT Forum
General BattleTech => Canon Inspired => Historicals => Topic started by: muttley on April 14, 2010, 09:53:06 PM
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So we know the Periphery 'Mech divisions Stefan raised refused to fight to protect the Rim Worlds- they hadn't signed up for a Coup or to be Stefan's cannon fodder (see below from the SLSB); and many of the Rim Worlds troops left behind didn't fight for him (again below). Its hard to believe Stefan had vetted his military so well that all the troops deployed into the Hegemony were loyal to him... or that the 16 divisions he took into the Hegemony could hold off the 300 Divisions and 212 regiments of the SLDF (SLSB p139).
16 division equivalents could take the Hegemony but 323.5 Division equivalents (212 regiments / 9 = 23.5 Divisions at 9 regiments of combat forces per division) leaves 20.34 divisions for each Amaris formation. Even nukes and the SDS make this a quick fight.
But... many people in the Territorial States hated the Star League, the SLDF, and all they represented. How hard is to imagine that elements of these people couldn't make their way to the Hegemony to fight for Stefan against the vile SLDF, and at the same time take their revenge against those Terran oppressors.
Extract from the SLSB p87
The Periphery divisions that Amaris had ordered to protect
the Republic had refused the order. Their reasons were many, but
the most common one was revulsion for what Stefan Amaris had
done. The warriors in the divisions had wanted independence
from the Star League, not the death of innocents. Without the
protection of the Periphery divisions, the Republic had only
reservists and a few militia units to defend against the most
powerful fighting force in history. Against such odds, many
Republican warriors simply gave up, either refusing to fight and
going AWOL or defecting to General Kerensky's side at the first
opportunity. The main contests were at the 20 fortifications
scattered throughout the Republic.
Fifty �Mech divisions swept down
on those SLDF garrisons that had not gone over to the Periphery�s
side�divisions wearing the colors of the Taurian Concordat, the
Magistracy of Canopus and the Outworlds Alliance.
p33, Handbook Major Periphery States
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We don't have hard numbers for the size of the Imperial Forces during the Hegemony Liberation.
We do know they (plus the SDS, Castles Brian, nukes, bugs, and gasses) destroyed 167.3 SLDF division equivalents and caused the disbanding of 27.3 more.
So the 16 Imperials divisions (plus force multipliers) destroyed 194.6 SLDF divisions with the added 36 Loyalist Regiments taking 2-3 times more casualties than the SLDF regulars (SLSB p88).
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Stefan, needing troops, and owning the factories of the Hegemony, and having 2 able sons (Takeo and Hideki) begins raising regiments.
These forces were formed from freed criminals, other undesireable elements, and ralliers to Stefan's cause. The Black Crow
Trading Company, the White Star Liner and Mercantile Company, and the Far Star Convoy (SLSB p78) moved ralliers, disaffected persons, and mercenaries into the Hegemony during the pause between the fall of the Rim Worlds Republic in August 2767, and the start of the Hegemony Liberation on July 14, 2772.
Emperor Amaris, too, began to prepare for the inevitable, building up his forces and strengthening fortifications. SLSB p87
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Stefan (with some prodding by Takeo) commissioned 4 new mech designs to rearm his Imperial forces. The Rampage was upgraded as well.
Some Royal technology was incorporated directly into the Imperial 'Mechs (see Rim Worlds Republic Tech Readout 2784). Undoubtedly some Royal 'Mechs were used but captured 'Mechs were probably unuseable except as components due to the advanced Hegemony software protecting the cores.
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It is unknown at this time how many divisions the Imperials fielded as their nomenclature and naming conventions were not sequential. Some regiments were expanded to brigades, some brigades to divisions using the original units' name.
On Mandal, the 9th Amaris Fusiliers Regiment had given its name to the Brigade it formed the core for. The 9th Amaris Fusiliers Brigade was composed of the single 'Mech regiment, an armored regiment, three infantry regiments, an aero wing, and a support regiment. During the buildup before the SLDF campaign, the Brigade grew to the size of an SLDF Mechanized Infantry Division with 3 'Mech regiments and 6 conventional regiments and was designated the 9th Amaris Fusiliers Division.
This tripling of forces almost defeated the SLDF Task Force sent to liberate Mandal which had been designed to easily overmatch a Brigade.
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The newly raised formations were designated as Imperial units rather than Rim Worlds or Amaris units.
In keeping with the ancient titles borne by many of the Amaris units (Fusiliers etc..) the new 'Mech units were grandiously designated as Grenadiers. The Grenadier regiments were functionally equivalent to an SLDF Battle regiment and were planned to fight in conjunction with conventional forces.
For example, the 92nd Imperial Grenadiers were organized on Mandal in 2768 using the output of the on-world Lang Industries factory. These colonial tech Shadow Hawks were only rarely equipped with advanced technology. The emperor employed these people, he rarely trusted them.
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The infantry forces raised to support the new Grenadier regiments were designated as "Rifle" regiments in keeping with the Soviet tradition of regarding rifle units as more elite than mere infantry.
The armored forces were designated "Tank" regiments and were regarded as being superior to the merely "Armored" regiments of the SLDF.
While Emperor Stefan (and the Soviets) believe quantity has a quality all its own... the battle-hardened units of the SLDF politely (and profanely) disagreed.
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Interesting thoughts.
Is it a setting of yours?
So the 16 Imperials divisions (plus force multipliers) destroyed 194.6 SLDF divisions with the added 36 Loyalist Regiments taking 2-3 times more casualties than the SLDF regulars (SLSB p88).
Not sure about these figures.
Weren't the casualties you quoted for the entire Coup including the initial surprise attack?
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If you go along the Soviet style for these Divisions, here are some figures for one Division I found but did not check yet.
Occupied area
1945 3 km x 3 km
1965 35 km x 25 km
1975 30 km x 20 km
1985 60 km x 30 km
Density per square km
1945 500 men per square km
1965 10 men per square km
1975 20 men per square km
1985 8 men per square km
Size of Division
1945 5,000 men
1965 8,500 men
1975 12,500 men
1985 15,000 men
Objective of the day
1945 20 km
1965 35-40 km
1975 35-40 km
1985 60-70 km
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The SLSB lists on p139:
FORCES DEFENDING AGAINST COUP:
Unit Type Taking Part Destroyed
BattleMech Divisions 3 1
Infantry Divisions 6 6
Independent Regiments 7 7
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Interesting thoughts.
Is it a setting of yours?
Just extrapolating & expanding in a way that seemed logical to me. I have hard time believing the Rimjobs spent 10 years celebrating & didn't increase their forces. Some of it followed from the historical incorporation of foreign forces into the Wehrmacht and SS (Ostruppen, division Charlemagne, division Wiking etc...)
What BTA has done in the Tiger's saga seemed to show some intelligent expansion on the Rinjob side.
I wanted to see some comments back from the gang before I incorporate this into the Mandal information.
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The SLSB lists on p139:
FORCES DEFENDING AGAINST COUP:
Unit Type Taking Part Destroyed
BattleMech Divisions 3 1
Infantry Divisions 6 6
Independent Regiments 7 7
These figures shows that from the 9 SLDF Divisions and 7 SLDF Regiments defending against the Coup (probably those within the Terran Hegemony) 7 Divisions and all the Regiments were destroyed.
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The forces defending against the Coup were the units within the TMR.
The 2 divisions that "survived" did so as scattered lances and the CAAN regiments on Carver V:
SLSB p171
Troops of the Rim Worlds Republic launched one of their
most relentless attacks to take Quantico. The tenacious defense
by the three CAAN regiments became one of the most stirring
stories to come out of the dark days of the Civil War. After
destroying Republican forces stationed with them on the island,
the Marines fought off repeated assaults by Republican forces.
For the next six years, the Amaris forces threw themselves at the
Marines, only to be pushed back into the sea.
Just when the Marines' parts and supplies were running low,
the Third Regimental Combat Team, the Eridani Light Horse,
fought through Republican forces to bring the Marines equipment.
With new supplies, the Marines held Quantico until they were
relieved by General Kerensky in 2773.
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I do agree but this doesn't support your figures.
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ok, please provide your figures. For full credit, show all your work ;) (as my calculus instructor used to say)
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I have none.
I was just trying to understand your figures on the Rim Worlds Republic army.
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I have none.
I was just trying to understand your figures on the Rim Worlds Republic army.
Before 2765, there were 25 divisions in the Terran Hegemony.
These included fleets, supplies, and planetary militia units.
By December 2766, all but eight divisions, only two of them
BattleMech divisions, had been sent to the Periphery. Reinforcing
these divisions were a handful of independent SLDF regiments
and planetary garrisons made up of aging veterans with Reserve
status and young men and women hoping to get into a military
academy.
Arrayed against the Regular Army in the Hegemony were
Republican regiments and brigades with a total strength of 16
divisions. Even on Terra, Republican troops outnumbered the
SLDF. Even as Stefan Amaris was murdering Richard Cameron,
his regiments were pouncing on Regular Army units throughout
the Hegemony. Republican troops used surprise to devastating
advantage with such tactics as destroying Regular Army barracks
filled with sleeping soldiers and flooding troopships with poisonous
gas. <<<SLSB p82
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Okay but for the figures after that period, he could have brought reinforcements to secure his position.
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The original figures of the Rim Worlds Republic were 90 BattleMech regiments in the Periphery 1st Ed. The SLSB changed this figure somewhat to 40 Divisions (which at minimum adds up to 120 BattleMech regiments). Amaris was also similar to the Blakist in widespread use of mercenaries.
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I missed the 40 Division reference, which page is it on?
My periphery sourcebook is packed- can you elaborate on the 90 regiments?
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By the time of the Amaris' Coup, the Rim Worlds Republic forces were supposed to be 30 BattleMechs regiments and 10 conventional ones but they could field 3 times these numbers (from the Periphery Sourcebook).
And for the Star League Sourcebook, it is on page 88.
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The history of Terra had some great expansion on the Occupation of the Hegemony. I think my rallier theory has some traction. Now whether that applies in the Shattered Dawn is another story...
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Yeah a lot of revelations that I've been dealing with on the other thread. How would you see your theory impacted BTSD?
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Yeah a lot of revelations that I've been dealing with on the other thread. How would you see your theory impacted BTSD?
Larger numbers of Amaris units facing the SLDF, with more active collaborators, and attempts by Amaris to get more 'Mech factories going.
Also there should be more people available to serve in the Last Cameron's forces- but probably segregated into other units becuase no one wants to work with former Imperials. Wait til the invading "Great" Houses meet the patented periphery suicide tactics...
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I wouldn't underestimate the impact of Amaris tactics on the Succession Wars. His use of WMD showed that a smaller force could gut if not defeat a much larger one, the SLDF.
You'll be seeing Rim Worlders all around the InnerSphere in BTSD not to worry. The Republic will have some, the Combine, Mercs, and others.
Also Mutt you will be happy to know I'm currently working on the Birth of the Rim Protectorate, a BTSD novel. ;)
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How about the Boy that lived? (The one whose descendant showed up in Star Lord)
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A variation on that theme is already in the works. ;)
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A variation on that theme is already in the works. ;)
Insert evil laughter!