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Author Topic: Operation Revival Force Sub (Fleshing out ideas)  (Read 30524 times)

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Gabriel

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Re: Operation Revival Force Sub (Fleshing out ideas)
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2012, 01:07:34 AM »

Ulric was always too softhearted
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drakensis

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Re: Operation Revival Force Sub (Fleshing out ideas)
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2012, 03:43:45 AM »

If the Clans have the high ground then I could see Focht surrendering under those circumstances.

Of course there is the wild card: the Clans are using their warships. The ComGuards have warships of their own. With the Scorpions having bid warships, would Focht have brought one or more of his own?
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Gabriel

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Re: Operation Revival Force Sub (Fleshing out ideas)
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2012, 07:18:38 AM »

I do not think at that time they had enough operational at that time to make a difference. Also Clan crews had more combat experience than the Comguard.
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Operation Revival Force Sub (Fleshing out ideas)
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2012, 01:47:27 PM »

Regarding your timeline, why did you drop the different Scorpions units? (not that I am against it, I just want everything to be well thought).

Quote
WarShips have been bid away since the Battle for Rasalhague in 3050!  He bluntly informs Nikolai that he cannot bid his ships—Nikolai asks the ilKhan was he now speaking as Khan of the Scorpions?  The Scorpions, he said, have not agreed to the convention to bid away a valued asset of the Clan.  And they will not.

I don't remember everything but wasn't it an order from the ilKhan?

Quote
Finally, Ulric relents, but he warns Nikolai that those ships are not to be used except in the most dire of circumstances—and promises his own Trial of Grievance if that order is disobeyed.

Your definition of dire might seem a bit too flexible.

Again, I just want everything to be logical and coherent (or as much as possible).
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 01:49:03 PM by Ice Hellion »
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
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masterarminas

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Re: Operation Revival Force Sub (Fleshing out ideas)
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2012, 03:08:25 PM »

In Stackpole's novels, did Ulric (as ilKhan) actually order the Invading Clans to forgo the bidding of WarShips?  No, they gave them up because the Wolves gave them up, and they wanted to beat bids made by the Wolves.  So without an actual ORDER, it merely remains up to the Clan's Khan to make his bid, quiaff?

I did it to streamline the units.  The Guard Trinary was what made the Grenadier Clusters so different.  But having 50 Elementals and 5 BattleMechs, made it an incredibly slow moving units (limited to the Elemental's jump of 3).  Functionally, while the Uhlans and Hussars had different configurations of Trinary assigned to them, they both had the exact same number of BattleMechs, Aerospace Fighters, and Elementals, so that was an easy decision to consolidate.  And then Dragoons were completely different from the 1st Cateran, while was more like Airborne Assault.  I wanted to streamline the Scorpion units:  when you meet a Scorpion Cluster, you know if it is full strength it will field 47 OmniMechs, 135 Elementals, and 32 Aerospace Fighters in Six Trinary sub-units.  Or 47 Omnimechs, 85 Elementals, and 22 Aerospace Fighters in Five Trinary sub-units.  Hussars are assigned lights and mediums, dragoons have lights, mediums, and heavies, and the cuirassier field just mediums and heavies.

It is the same reason that I got rid of the Nightlord, the Essex, the Volga, and the Carrack.  That way, each Scorpion Naval Star has an Aegis, a Congress, two Lola IIIs, and either a Cameron or a McKenna.  Their transport star has four Potemkins.  And their last ship is the Clan Flagship, a Sovietskii Soyuz.  Simplifies logistics, having to stock parts for seven classes of ships, instead of eleven.  Heck, if it wasn't for the sheer prestige involved, I'd ditch the Sovietskii Soyuz for another Cameron, and replace all three Aegis with Congress-class ships!  Or replace the Sovietskii Soyuz, Aegis, and Congress class ships completely with a new cruiser (but I decided against changing it that far).

Understood.  Point out where you think I am wrong, so we can tighten this up before we even start on the actual contents.

Master Arminas
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Blacknova

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Re: Operation Revival Force Sub (Fleshing out ideas)
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2012, 06:20:40 PM »

For toghtening I still go back to my earlier point of Focht bum rushing one of the last three Clans and calling it off agasint the other two.  With the Wolves and Scorpions the most moderate, he would know this from his time with the Clans, he can avalanche the Bears ad still get a win.  Additionally, this leaves the Wolves and Scorps as the only undefeated Clans.  However, I do see how this would alter where you wnat the universe to go.
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Re: Operation Revival Force Sub (Fleshing out ideas)
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2012, 08:35:31 PM »

I'm also not sure Waterly's power play would affect Ulric. After all, Ulric's agreement was made with/through Focht, not Waterly. (So there's a proxy thing going on there, that can be played with.)

While the Crusading Clans would look for a culprit, it wouldn't be the ilKhan - after all, the Clans did WIN Tukayyid.

I think the fallout of Operation Scorpion would fall one way or another solely on Focht's response. Focht's Heigra is a first step. Once he's learned of Operation Scorpion the ball is more or less in his court. If Focht turns on Waterly AND respects the ruling of the Trial, no harm no foul if you think about it. However, Ulric and the Clans by extension would be placing a lot of faith in Focht to do the right "thing" AND succeed entirely on his own...if that's the route decided.

Alternatively, all bets are off if Focht doesn't maintain his end of the bargain. Then I expect the Clans to show little respect to the heigra.

Again, while I think Ulric isn't in a position of vulnerability (this is an Spheroid breaking a promise - big surprise there.) he'll probably be forced to smash through the remaining ComGuard forces for voiding the Trial and continuing with the invasion.

Future bidding against Inner Sphere forces might also be affected.
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masterarminas

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Re: Operation Revival Force Sub (Fleshing out ideas)
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2012, 09:11:28 PM »

So . . . is it better for the story if Focht lives or Fochet dies?

Master Arminas
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drakensis

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Re: Operation Revival Force Sub (Fleshing out ideas)
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2012, 03:00:52 AM »

Depends where you want the story to go at this point.

If Focht surrenders (or dies and the rest of the Scorpions) then his remaining forces are bondsmen to the three victorious clans. That could be leveraged into their recovering faster and offsets the blame on Ulric and Focht, laying it all on Waterly. This isn't good for ComStar but is relatively good for the Bears, Wolves and Scorpions.

If Focht survives and withdraws, then the clans may decide he and Focht are jointly responsible, dezgra and that Ulric catches blame for letting him go. ComStar and the ComGuards are going to be treated very harshly by the clans and Ulric's position is weakened although he'd probably survive. Focht overthrowing Waterly would offset it if he then surrenders Terra to the clans and tries to pull ComStar service from the Successor States (the latter of which would not be possible given the HPG stations are occupied post-Scorpion). If he doesn't try to do these then he bargained in bad faith and is even more despised than Waterly.

Personally I'd lean towards Focht being captured and becoming a bondsman to Ulric, the ComGuards being absorbed into the Wolves, Ghost Bears and Scorpions. Waterly does not surrender, and the Clans push on for Terra with an uneasy rivalry between Ulric and Djerassi. Don't know how that fits in with your plans though.
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fitzgerald

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Re: Operation Revival Force Sub (Fleshing out ideas)
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2012, 07:41:16 AM »

A few comments since I just discovered this.

On the Orbital Bombardment:   

I'd suggest targeting all the Airfields the Comguards are using / could use.   This effectively grounds a majority of the surviving ASF, and also demonstrates that yes the Scorpions are serious about using their big stick.   

It demonstrates the overwhelming strategic fire power of the Scorpions Naval Star in action, heavily degrades the ComGuards ability to deploy ASF, and doesn't trod on the Mechwarrior's domain.

On the Scorpion Fleet:

Serket as the Flagship Does Not Appear in my copy of Warden Clans. Instead it can be read that the McKenna Lei Kung is the Flagship of the Einheriar Battlegroup and of the Scorpion Fleet.

Instead of dropping the NightLord for the Cameron (really keeping a Cameron? A 2/3 Cruiser instead of a new built 3/5 Battleship that's designed to carry a Galaxy into action).

I'd suggest dropping the Scorpions down to two Naval Stars, plus transports:
Star 1:  McKenna, Conqueror, 3 x Congress,   
Star 2: Nightlord, Conqueror, 3 x Congress

Note the Conqueror's, which the Snow Raven's had started building for the Bears in the mid 3040's ~ Essentially an updated Aegis Design.  The Scorpions Fleet now has a standard movement of 3/5, 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 3 Frigates and 14 / 12 Collars between the respective stars.

Thematically this build is suggestive of Clan on the way up.  They've put aside older, worn out designs for newer more capable ones. 

Not to mention gotten rid of the sluggish Camerons, Soyuz and Aegis Cruisers. 

As an alternative to the Conqueror's I'd suggest the Kimagure Class Cruiser, as a fast, and armed with energy weapons cruiser.


On the Heart Vemon (Cateran Cluster):

The Scorpion's have been the go to "Special Forces" Clan, from Operation Klondike onwards with SaKhan's Scott airdrop on the SDS, and with the "Sea Wolf" Incident.  It's been one of their strongest bits of flavour & fluff.

I'd ditch the Scorpion's Keshik and replace it with the Cateran Cluster as presented in the Field Manual: Warden Clans.  Everybody else has a bog standard Keshik filled with Mechs, ASF and Elementals.

No other Clan has a Special Forces Cluster.

Ciao,
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Takiro

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Re: Operation Revival Force Sub (Fleshing out ideas)
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2012, 08:40:48 AM »

Admittedly i have not read everything but warships? What of the ComGuard fleet? Likely within the area helping to transport the vast ComGuard Armies to Tukayyid.
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masterarminas

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Re: Operation Revival Force Sub (Fleshing out ideas)
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2012, 10:08:05 AM »

Depends where you want the story to go at this point.

If Focht surrenders (or dies and the rest of the Scorpions) then his remaining forces are bondsmen to the three victorious clans. That could be leveraged into their recovering faster and offsets the blame on Ulric and Focht, laying it all on Waterly. This isn't good for ComStar but is relatively good for the Bears, Wolves and Scorpions.

If Focht survives and withdraws, then the clans may decide he and Focht are jointly responsible, dezgra and that Ulric catches blame for letting him go. ComStar and the ComGuards are going to be treated very harshly by the clans and Ulric's position is weakened although he'd probably survive. Focht overthrowing Waterly would offset it if he then surrenders Terra to the clans and tries to pull ComStar service from the Successor States (the latter of which would not be possible given the HPG stations are occupied post-Scorpion). If he doesn't try to do these then he bargained in bad faith and is even more despised than Waterly.

Personally I'd lean towards Focht being captured and becoming a bondsman to Ulric, the ComGuards being absorbed into the Wolves, Ghost Bears and Scorpions. Waterly does not surrender, and the Clans push on for Terra with an uneasy rivalry between Ulric and Djerassi. Don't know how that fits in with your plans though.

Sounds good.  Let me work it into the plans.

MA
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Operation Revival Force Sub (Fleshing out ideas)
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2012, 02:35:15 PM »

If the Scorpions have declared the ComGuards dezgra, why would they wait to use their fleet against selected concentrations of units?
As I said, your definition of dire is quite flexible.

Let's say that ComGuards ask for the mother of all trials to decide who is the winner and pick up one Clan and not the others.
How would the Goliath Scorpions that said that the ComGuards were dezgra react? And the other two Clans?
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

masterarminas

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Re: Operation Revival Force Sub (Fleshing out ideas)
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2012, 02:48:13 PM »

Admittedly i have not read everything but warships? What of the ComGuard fleet? Likely within the area helping to transport the vast ComGuard Armies to Tukayyid.

Ah, but were ComGuard WarShips actually bid by Focht?  If not, he is breaking his own bid, which might well bring the other Clans WarShips into the fight.

Maybe.

Master Arminas
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masterarminas

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Re: Operation Revival Force Sub (Fleshing out ideas)
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2012, 03:03:14 PM »

A few comments since I just discovered this.

On the Orbital Bombardment:   

I'd suggest targeting all the Airfields the Comguards are using / could use.   This effectively grounds a majority of the surviving ASF, and also demonstrates that yes the Scorpions are serious about using their big stick.   

It demonstrates the overwhelming strategic fire power of the Scorpions Naval Star in action, heavily degrades the ComGuards ability to deploy ASF, and doesn't trod on the Mechwarrior's domain.

Good idea, I may well use it.

Quote
On the Scorpion Fleet:

Serket as the Flagship Does Not Appear in my copy of Warden Clans. Instead it can be read that the McKenna Lei Kung is the Flagship of the Einheriar Battlegroup and of the Scorpion Fleet.

Instead of dropping the NightLord for the Cameron (really keeping a Cameron? A 2/3 Cruiser instead of a new built 3/5 Battleship that's designed to carry a Galaxy into action).

I'd suggest dropping the Scorpions down to two Naval Stars, plus transports:
Star 1:  McKenna, Conqueror, 3 x Congress,   
Star 2: Nightlord, Conqueror, 3 x Congress

Note the Conqueror's, which the Snow Raven's had started building for the Bears in the mid 3040's ~ Essentially an updated Aegis Design.  The Scorpions Fleet now has a standard movement of 3/5, 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 3 Frigates and 14 / 12 Collars between the respective stars.

Thematically this build is suggestive of Clan on the way up.  They've put aside older, worn out designs for newer more capable ones. 

Not to mention gotten rid of the sluggish Camerons, Soyuz and Aegis Cruisers. 

As an alternative to the Conqueror's I'd suggest the Kimagure Class Cruiser, as a fast, and armed with energy weapons cruiser.

I believe that FM:WC states that the Lei Kung is the Clan flagship.  But almost every other Clan has a cruiser or battlecruiser as its flag.  So, for this story, I decided to change it to the Serket, especially since deploying a McKenna would be overkill.  (They know the Dragoons never reported any WarShips.)

The Nightlords are cool ships, but I've never actually liked them.  They can't carry a Galaxy, their docking collars are sub-par, and I just don't really care for them.  Plus, why should the Scorpions have two Battleships?  Unlike ground combat, speed is not nearly as important amongst WarShips, and the Camerons are tough ships.  Since their Aegis- and Sovietskii Soyuz-class cruisers are already rated at 2/3 thrust, and their Potemkins, why not the Camerons as well?

The Conquerors haven't been built yet, not in 3049.  And the Kimagure is another one of those designs that I just don't like.

Quote
On the Heart Vemon (Cateran Cluster):

The Scorpion's have been the go to "Special Forces" Clan, from Operation Klondike onwards with SaKhan's Scott airdrop on the SDS, and with the "Sea Wolf" Incident.  It's been one of their strongest bits of flavour & fluff.

I'd ditch the Scorpion's Keshik and replace it with the Cateran Cluster as presented in the Field Manual: Warden Clans.  Everybody else has a bog standard Keshik filled with Mechs, ASF and Elementals.

No other Clan has a Special Forces Cluster.

Except the 1st Cateran Cluster (Heartvenom, one word by the way) has never been described as a SpecOps Cluster.  It had a Command Trinary (12 'Mechs, 10 Elementals, 2 Fighters), a Battle Trinary (5 'Mechs, 25 Elementals, and 10 Fighters), a Striker Trinary (10 'Mechs, 10 Fighters), and two Specialist Trinary (50 Elementals and 10 Fighters each).  Meaning it fields a total of 27 'Mechs, 135 Elementals, and 42 Fighters, in Five Trinary.

My version (1st Scorpion Dragoons) has 47 'Mechs, 135 Elementals, and 32 Fighters, in Six Trinary.  Same Elemental numbers, slightly less Aerospace Fighters, and TWENTY more OmniMechs or BattleMechs.

How would a Clan SpecOps Cluster work?  Wouldn't its very presence be an insult to the Clan method of Trials and dueling?  We know, from canon material, that the Clans DID form their Elementals into headhunter units which were dedicated to taking out the IS headquarters units, but that is the closest thing to a SpecOps mission that we see.

But keep barnstorming those ideas, Fitzgerald!

Master Arminas 
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