OBT Forum

It might turn things on it's ear

Quote from: masterarminas on May 11, 2012, 12:17:34 AM

Ulric points to the Jaguar bombardment of Turtle Bay, and he thunders at Nikolai that he will not allow such a slaughter while he is ilKhan. And Nicolai replies: has not the population been evacuated? The entire planet is empty but for the enemy and use. I shall confront my enemy in this Trial with all of my forces at my disposal—for the prize here today is no less than TERRA!

This is the only bit I'm shaky on.

The Clans only quit using their WarShips because the Wolves opted to do so. Since the Wolves are the Clan of Kerensky, mostly Warden and the most successful invader up until Tukayyid I expect the remaining Crusader Clans to carry a bit of a chip on their shoulder. After all, if a bunch of Warden pups can conquer without their WarShips, a mighty Jaguar, Falcon, or Ghost Bear should easily do the same. Seems like forced follow the leader to prove a who's the better Clan. Still, the ban is unofficial and logically reinforced by the lack of Inner Sphere opponents. The Clans have a long history of using their WarShips in combat (their use never disappeared), from Klondike, through the Mongoose Absorption.

I think the concept of combat is the key here. With Tukayyid evacuated and the parameters of the Trial set, the battlezone is clearly a combat zone.   

With Tukayyid, there's no way an uppity group of non-warriors will rebel. No way for a hysterical orbital response, or a psychological gut punch. Think about it, Edo shocked some of the Clans. Not because the WarShip was used, but because it was utilized against non-Warriors. Tukayyid has only warriors.

So I think Ulric's reaction is out of character in this situation. Besides being in a precarious position, his election as ilKhan was less than ideal as well. IF anything, I'd expect one of the other Crusading Khans to challenge the Scorpion's use of WarShips at Tukayyid. Ulric is also well aware of the fact that there are no non-combatants on Tukayyid. The number of dead is inconsequential here, they're all warriors participating in the Trial. Ulric wouldn't be careless as to forget this key fact. Plus, the WarShip ban IS unofficial. He knows that. The fact that no Crusader Clan has opted for something different until Tukayyid probably has more to do with a lack of opponents than avoiding another Edo. (The term convergent convenience comes to mind...)

Here's the situation: At this point the Scorpions are unblooded, the Crusaders have been fighting the invasion and done so without their WarShips. Now the Scorpions want to bring one along, and against an opponent that doesn't have any WarShips present at the Trial. I'm sure the Jaguars and Falcons will have something derogatory to say about the Scorpions. Their censure could replace Ulric's in your story.

Let's try this then:

The Khans are taken aback by this: WarShips have been bid away since the Battle for Rasalhague in 3050!  More arguments ensure, led by Osis and Crichell, accusations of cowardice and incompetence are leveled at the Scorpions.  Nikolai responds by citing Klondike, where no less a personage as the First ilKhan, Nicolas Kerensky himself, ordered the Scorpions to bombard a military target from orbit during the Battle of Dagda.  “Throwing away an asset such as our ships, in a combat situation where success is not certain by any means; when the stakes are those of Terra itself, that, my Khans, is folly!”
Ulric stays silent during the debate, but when things grow even more heated, he nods to the Khans of Ghost Bear, who physically separate the three enraged Khans.  Ulric at last stands, and he informs Osis and Crichell and all of the other Khans present, that the bidding is for a zone of battle.  And that no Khan had the right under the Martial Code to dictate another on how to bid his forces.  He points out that the civilians of Tukayyid have been evacuated, and that while it is within Nikolai’s rights to bid the vessels, the lack of opponents fielded by the ComGuard will make their use quite . . . overwhelming. 
He turned to Khans Crichell and Jorgensson; the Scorpion bid, including WarShips, favors you own Clans.  Were he to withdraw that bid, his Clans would gain the choice of either of your intended landing zones—and arrive on planet before your forces.  While I, personally, the ilKhan continued, believe it be overkill and unnecessary, the bid is within his rights as Khan.  Unlike Edo on Turtle Bay (and Khan Osis’s face turned even more scarlet with anger), there are only Warriors present on the surface.  Indeed, all of you are welcome to bid your own capital ships—but the Wolves will not.  If you choose to, then the Clan of Kerensky will land first.
Slowly, the other Khans withdraw their objections.  But the inclusion of ships mean that the Scorpions will land dead last—twenty four hours after even the Wolves. Most Khans present believe that the Battle will already be decided well before then—for they need only seize eight of the fourteen objectives to win the Battle and thus Terra.
The Battle does not go according to plan.

Master Arminas

I like Fitz's idea.

Question: if the IlKhan bids away Warships in his initial bid with ComStar, a bid made for all the Clans, how can a single Clan bring them back in the game?

Been busy, trying to catch up.  In general, I like the refinements.  Have to object to a couple points raised earlier, however.

Re: using WarShips against ground targets.

Part of the Clan way is to not cause undue casualties, even of combat troops, and to respect an enemy which fights well.  Where is that in the Scorpions orbitally bombarding the ComGuards after they have clearly achieved victory, having lost only 2 out of 7 sub-battles?

Re: Clan vs InnerSphere equipment & tactics circa 3052

That write-up back around page 2 or 3 misses one key point: the Clanners don't make war, they try to win glory.  They act with all the confidence and subtlety of the French at Agincourt (where in addition to being better trained and equipped, the French also outnumbered the English).  An Inner Sphere military would take advantage of the Clan equipment to fight in such a way to deny the enemy any advantage and keep out of their primary killing zone, but this is not the way the Clans are depicted fighting -- either at Tukayyid or anywhere else.  This is precisely why the Kuritans are able to toy with the Falcons at Wolcott and lead them into a trap.

Clan combat stresses fast & simple warfare, charge right in and get to where the enemy is so you can shoot them.  As genetically engineered super-soldiers, they assume they're better in every way than their Inner Sphere opponents -- even the Warden Wolves have this mindset, other than a handful who are either depicted as uncommonly wise (Ulric) or highly experienced at fighting Inner Sphere-style (Natasha).  Case in point, the youth bias.  Real militaries, where war is an intellectual pursuit as much as a physical one, prefer calm, thoughtful leaders.  The Clans take hotheads and promote to leadership based on who is best at single combat (which is why their tactics suck and they have almost no inkling of strategy; sadly, as depicted the Inner Sphere militaries lack such an excuse for their lack of tactics and atrocious strategy). 

The Inner Sphere militaries should eat the Clans for breakfast, because the Clans don't care if the Inner Sphere forces gather all in one spot -- to the Clan way of thinking, this guarantees a quick & decisive battle, as all the enemy troops are in one spot -- and also makes the fight the most difficult, thereby arranging the most glorious conditions possible.  Issuing BatChalls ensures that the Inner Sphere commanders have time to assemble & prepare their troops.  It shouldn't take a Theodore Kurita to lead the Clans to ground of the Inner Sphere's choosing in order to savage a Clan offensive -- Clan military culture is begging for just that to happen.

With the game in the balance and having 3 wins on the board, he could alsways retreat out of two battles and swarm on a third.  That way he wins 4, draws 1 and looses 2, as per canon.

But Focht only lost one of the seven fights, to the Wolves, while the Bears drew on account of seizing one objective, but not the other, while the Falcons drew due to casualties sustained on both sides (they never took an objective).  This has been true from when Lost Destiny was published, and is still what's listed in Era Report: 3052.  If everything else goes according to canon, it doesn't matter whether the Scorpions seize both of their objectives or not, it doesn't affect the outcome of Tukayyid.  It would result in ComStar winning 3 fights, drawing 2, and the Clans only winning two; clearly this is still a victory for ComGuard.  And Ulric, in Lost Destiny, even points out that the only reason the Falcons could be said to have forced a draw was because Focht declined to commit any reserves to that battle; had he done so, Ulric implies, the Falcons would have suffered a clear defeat.

If due to the Bear's draw & the Wolf & Scorpion victories Focht needs another clear win (though he wouldn't, so long as Ulric gets to make the determining vote in the Clans, which he would), in the canon it seems it would have been simple for Focht to turn the Falcons from a "draw" (in which, it should be noted, the ComGuards retained both of the Falcon's objectives; per the rules of the fight, that should have been a clear "win" for ComStar) into a win.

I like Fitz's idea.

Question: if the IlKhan bids away Warships in his initial bid with ComStar, a bid made for all the Clans, how can a single Clan bring them back in the game?

A trial of grievance against the ilKhan would bring WarShips back in, it could also result in a dead ilKhan and that turns everything around

I can think of any number of ways for an Inner Sphere unit to completely undermine the Clan 'mechs general speed advantage.  But I'm willing to drop that subject and continue on with the main point, as I relish the idea of Waterly seeing both a Clan victory at Tukayyid and their reaction to her perfidy. 

Ulric's point about Focht being able to change the Falcon fight into a win was based on the fact that Focht didn't commit any reserves to press the Falcons while they were retreating.  And were I Focht, I'd have used the argument that as the Falcons didn't take either of their objectives, it wasn't a draw, it was a ComStar victory (if a Pyrrhic one in that zone).  Warden Clans, I note, is written from the PoV of the Clanners, and the Ghost Bear who wrote their section was clearly trying to one-up every other clan (save the Wolves); but my copy says (Page 82) "As it was, we captured and held one of our two objectives, and claimed a marginal victory for our Clan."  I submit that what is meant by that is that they claimed second-best status of the Clan performances, having seized one objective, which is more than any Clan other than the Wolf can say.  Given that both Lost Destiny and Era Report: 3052 list the Ghost Bears as a draw, and the biased point-of-view of Warden Clans, I'd say that TPTB are counting it as a draw.

I think the strike on Focht's bunker is good, yes, as that's a well-established tactic on the part of the Clanners in the Inner Sphere, as seen by Hohiro Kurita's misadventures and the deliberate targeting of Viccy S-D on Alyina.   Of course, I'm not sure that Focht's bunker is even on the same continent as the rest of the fighting, which is likely to make it rather obvious when the SpecForces raid on it launches -- assuming the Clanners can even figure out its location.  But I don't have the time to comb Lost Destiny to find where it talks about Focht's hideout, so I could be wrong.

One thing I never got about Tukayyid.

All the Clans made bids to decide when they would join the assault.

In a trial the lowest bid wins the rights to fight.  In the case of Tukayyid it was to determine when they were allowed to land.

Now... in a trial if you pull in your earlier bids you lose honour, but there is no greater honour than victory.

Why not just pull in previous bids to supplement their forces?  ComGuards face new forces and fall Focht is still killed or captured and Waterly still screws them over.  The Clans are so beat up because of them pulling in previous bids they can't resume invasion immediately giving IS time to either take out ComStar or prepare for the upcoming onslaught.  Including reforming the league.

As the invaders rebuild the home Clans screw over the Invaders and Ulric by pretty much activating themselves for invasion.  Using Ulric's fail to secure Terra and the destruction of most of the current invasion force as an excuse to invade.  More than likely Ulric being killed in the process of the Clan political backlash.

When the Clans come again the current invaders face the Inner Sphere but they also find themselves fighting more arriving Clans.  Lyrans and DCMS suddenly also feel the force of more invasion corridors.

All the Clans are united in one thing - kill ComStar unfortunately they don't agree on how to do it...