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Author Topic: Zell?  (Read 17825 times)

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Kwic

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Zell?
« on: April 21, 2013, 08:37:43 AM »

Have you given thought how to bring Zell into the rules?
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Re: Zell?
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2013, 05:51:00 PM »

Battle modifier.

Each Clan will have a Zell mod.

For Trials between Clans, you declare how many enclaves you are after, or a factory.  Bidding can be done the month before and a unit split, so that only the bidded portions go in.
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Re: Zell?
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2013, 12:36:01 PM »

Sorry for resurrecting old threads so much, but I'm just getting up to speed here, and putting up thoughts as I have them.

There may need to be some consideration given to zell usage in the KU. In the canon invasion, several major factors contributed to the usage of zell, even late into the Invasion.

1. The Clans were portrayed a bit more naively, holding onto that Klingon-like honor system because it benefitted the needs of the story. The Clans were also portrayed as somewhat naive when it came to non-frontline combat strategic level concerns (pre-combat intel, enemy surveillance, HUMINT, etc.) and logistical concerns. So, the heavy usage of Level 1 zell (the most restrictive), save for a few select Clans, makes a great deal of sense. This is not so much the case in the KU. While I would imagine that most Clans would easily still follow Level 2 or 3 zell (I'll play nice, so long as you do), I'm not so sure if some of the less hidebound KU Clans would even come in with that mindset. Clearly, they've had a fair amount of intel on the IS, maybe even more than in canon (between the Dragoons intel, the Terran ship captured, and the fact that the Clans own intelligence assets are not quite so lacking in the KU). That's worth considering.

2. The number of Clans involved in the Invasion and the number of Clans left alive; the differences here between canon and the KU are important. Canon Invasion had only the five Invader Clans, and of them, only 1 (Wolf) had anything resembling a non-hidebound view of zell. That isn't quite the case in the KU. First, all the Clans have survived to the modern era. That means all the Clans are accustomed to fighting other Clans that have less than traditional views on combat to varying degrees. They were not just fighting the Wolves in the homeworlds. You have the Wolverines, the Mongooses, and the Burrocks all floating around. These are all Clans clearly shown to have some very non-traditional views on combat and the prosecution of war as a logic process, rather than the artform of honor duels.

3. The Inner Sphere itself is the final factor. Outside of the units that were involved in the 4th Succession War (which granted, was a lot of them), there are many units floating around out there in the canon Invasion that were still set up to fight the last war. That would be the 3rd Succession War, where raiding and dueling (to some extent) was a necessity of keeping units active that were no longer able to be easily replaced or manufactured. Small-scale engagements that almost resembled zell duels would lead to some of the backwater units (like those the Clans first encountered in the IS houses, once they got past the Deep Periphery) still thinking in terms of the 3rd Succession War. So the honor duels may have been more easily held to (from the IS side, even unintentionally), simply due to the nature of the armies and their mindset at that time. Again, this isn't the case in the KU. You didn't have the level of destruction from the 1st and 2nd SWs (at least as far as I can tell). There's been a much more rapid return to lostech levels, SLDF era levels of production and army sizes (okay, they aren't there yet, but they are much closer than canon Invasion armies were), and the return of naval assets in a big way. So, the IS armies are now built for fighting the last war (the KU 4th Succession War), which means those armies are drastically different beasts than the canon Invasion IS armies. And the KU Clans know this.
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Dragon Cat

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Re: Zell?
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2013, 01:31:15 PM »

Once the Clans learn of the Hegemony's actions during the fourth that could have a factor too as could the return of nukes in space combat - those Levi's are not too invincible if nukes are in play
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Really, as long as there is an unbroken line of people calling themselves "Clan Nova Cat," it doesn't really matter to me if they're still using Iron Wombs or not. They may be dead as a faction, but as a people they still exist. It's not uncommon in the real world, after all.

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Re: Zell?
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2013, 01:41:35 PM »

Oddly enough, I never considered allowing the Clans to use Zellbringen against Inner Sphere opponents. Once the Clans learn of the Hegemony and sides are chosen (for, against or neutral) I think it'll be a coin toss as to which Clans decide to extend honor dueling to the Inner Sphere and which ones won't. Honestly, IMO I think it'll be the more "traditional" Clans that would opt NOT to extend the courtesy—the IS is not Clan after all—and the more pragmatic/liberal Clans will simply forgo its use in interest of battlefield success. ;)

Honor dueling the IS was something that never sat well with me in canon. Why would the Clans extend a courtesy to the IS that they would never extend to the Bandit Caste? The IS isn't Clan anymore than the Bandit Caste is, etc.

I understand the basic explanation, but I still think it was a silly practice only implemented for story reasons.

Among Clans, I expect it to happen without question, with Supplication being used as an excellent brake to maintain that sort of warfare among the Clans post-Invasion. There's still plenty of wiggle room to destroy the whole system, but having the Clans only duel amongst themselves might add a little longevity to the practice.

Just something to thing about...

Once the Clans learn of the Hegemony's actions during the fourth that could have a factor too as could the return of nukes in space combat - those Levi's are not too invincible if nukes are in play

I know Black hasn't decided on the Clans using nukes against WarShips, but my personal vote is for the Clans to not have the option. Their better technology and higher overall skills should be sufficient to tackle the Inner Sphere's WarShips. The Clans do not practice total war. WMDs are not an option IMO for the Clans. For game balance it might be useful to offer the Clans a small combat bonus when facing enemy WarShips to represent their experience facing such vessels over the last two centuries.
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Re: Zell?
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2013, 02:36:29 PM »

I'd agree the Clans wouldn't use the but I meant what are they going to do with nukes thrown at them?? Clan Warships are largely vanilla Star League designs against IS forces using beefed up modern designed ships with deep AMS reserves

I know the there's more clan ships but the majority (McKenna, Black Lion, Aegis, Sovetskii Soyuz, Texas etc) lack conventional defences unless there getting the Hegemony style AMS as a balancer?

I know ships like the Levi could take it and smile but the rest of the SL designs are a lot more fragile to the firepower brought by nukes
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Really, as long as there is an unbroken line of people calling themselves "Clan Nova Cat," it doesn't really matter to me if they're still using Iron Wombs or not. They may be dead as a faction, but as a people they still exist. It's not uncommon in the real world, after all.

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Re: Zell?
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2013, 04:31:07 PM »

Short answer before Harry wakes up, longer answer later.

I am prepping a list of each Clans outlooks against several areas, inducing Zellbrigen.  The average of the Clans will be more flexible than canon.
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Re: Zell?
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2013, 05:24:29 PM »

That's the cost of sticking to your cultural norms DC. You'll want to husband your resources like any good clanner. :)
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Re: Zell?
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2013, 06:36:27 PM »

On thinking on this one, the easiest way is to do the following.

Cluster A1 has a Str of 72 and a CUR of 12, giving it an total Value of 864.

Cluster B1 has a Str of 84 and a CUR of 10, giving it a total Value of 840.

Defending Cluster C1 has a Str of 66 and a CUR of 10, giving it a total Value of 660.

Player A challenges Player C for Enclave X on planet Y.

Player B wants it as well and calls for a bid.

The cut down is the defenders Value - 660.

Each player reduces their Value by a percentage, say A bids 80% meaning their bid is a Value of 691.  B then bids 75%, giving their bid a Value of 630, below cut down and A drops out, giving the right to attack to B.

This means in the battle sheets, Cluster B1 would be fighting with a combat bonus of 0.75.

Does that make sense?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 05:21:51 PM by Blacknova »
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Re: Zell?
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2013, 02:19:38 PM »

 ???
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Re: Zell?
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2013, 02:31:32 PM »

While I would not necessarily agree with the cutdown size, I can see what you mean. 75% of the Attacker translates to a Bonus to their value of .75, making it not a bonus, but the modifier to reach 75 %. Now, what happens should that cluster get decimated or at worst, get destroyed? Would there just remain the .25 of the rest? Or what is also left over?

For the proper trial, yeah, I can see that working. (But the cutdown would really be up to the bidding parties, right? I mean, they could bid to 500 value and come out on top? I. E. defense has only a Regular Cluster (or just a possible portion thereof? Likewise as a below 1 value modifier) and the attacker winning the bid has an Elite Cluster. Or is that already included in the total Value?
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Re: Zell?
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2013, 07:06:20 PM »

All that is contained in the value.

As to what happens to the rest of the Cluster, I'll have to think about it.
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Re: Zell?
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2013, 03:06:50 AM »

The cut down is the defenders Value - 660.

Why? And evenmore why against the Inner Sphere?
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

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Re: Zell?
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2013, 03:36:29 AM »

Because bidding is what the Clans do.
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Re: Zell?
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2013, 07:00:56 AM »

Because bidding is what the Clans do.

I don´t say they don´t bid, but rather that it might be a bit too much.
I know Zell and I know that the Clans are overconfident by nature but the Inner Sphere is full of potential dezgra as the intel gathered should show and they outnumber the Clans.

This is a personal statement and not a RP one.
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5
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