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Author Topic: TA 2785 Character Profile: John Davion  (Read 9079 times)

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Ice Hellion

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TA 2785 Character Profile: John Davion
« on: February 14, 2010, 12:25:14 PM »

As this is the first of the Character Profiles we have to make, the form might not be definitive as I had to start from somewhere.

I will first focus on facts or written (i.e. official) statements and then in a second part, I will try to make something coherent out of it.
To do so, I will use the Classical BattleTech setting until Prince John Davion dies and then get back to our Shattered Dawn times.
My main two sources are House Davion Sourcebook (HDSB) and Handbook House Davion (HHD)


So what do we know about John Davion?

He had few time to prepare itself to his role as Prince of the Federated Suns, being designated Heir in 2743 after Richard Davion's son and heir was killed in a training exercise.

For the efficiency of his two years of training, we have two different assesements.
House Davion Sourcebook states that “He merely set out to prepare himself for the job-if it ever fell
to him-as quickly and as efficiently as he could.” while George Hasek states something completely opposite as according to him “You can go all the way back to the Star League. The two worst Princes we had during that time were John and Michael Davion. And you know what they have in common, don’t you, mother?” […]  “Peace, mother. They were ‘peace Princes.’ John grew up in an era without real war. Until Amaris, that is..” (HHD).

However, he was resolute and had a certain strength of character as he never let things go down even during the disastrous initial years of the 1st Succession War and tried to react in spite of what happened following his first withdrawal order.
“To stop the decay eating away at the AFFS, Prince John authorized a crash program of militarization. The government seized almost all of the Federated Suns major industries for the production of military equipment, and most other resources became the property of the AFFS. One welcome effect of this drastic policy was that it lowered the realm’s high unemployment rate, easing the economic doldrums. Within six months of this industrial mobilization, the manufacture of JumpShips, ‘Mechs, AeroSpace Fighters, and tanks was steadily increasing.” (HHD)

He lead his troops from the front several time (against the Capellan Confederation at least two times and against the Draconis Combine several times, nearly costing him his life once on Carthago).

He knew the value of striking quickly (as illustrated by his ill-fortunate counter-strikes against House Kurita advances) but usually, he was not one to rush unprepared as he took time to build forces to strike back at House Liao during the Border War.
He did this also during the initial phases of the 1st Succession War when he tried to invade the Capellan Confederation.
“Prince John knew that he needed more than this to stop an opportunistic enemy, and searched about for away to stall at least one of his “neighbours” from attacking. He ordered his Marshals to devise an offensive to spoil the plans of the realm most likely to attack the Federated Suns.” (HHD)

He was slow to react when the risk of the Succession War rose. “The Towne Debacle made even Prince John realize just how ineffective the AFFS had become. The idea of inheriting  the title of First Lord had apparently blinded him to the needs of his realm.” (HDSB)
And again during the Purge, he needed time to assess things and react. “Still, it took Prince John Davion a full two years before addressing the problem, and even then he did so in a decidedly laissez-faire manner.”(HHD)

His approach to the Star League is two sided.
“He was the man General Kerensky dubbed “the best and noblest of all the Lords” in 2764. Twenty years later, the General accused this same John of being “the traitor who destroyed all that I’ve worked for.”” (HDSB)
“As long as the Star League seemed worth preserving, John was its most stalwart supporter, but he would not be tied to that institution once its existence ceased to benefit the Federated Suns.” (HDSB)
“Determined to look after the interests of his nation, he continued to encourage less reliance on the Star League.” (HHD)
But at the same time, he like all his government and kingdom had relied too much on the Star League “The slight slide in the Davion economy that had accompanied the collapse of the Star League now turned into an all-out crash late in 2786. Those who believed that the days of wine and roses would never end would now pay for their unwillingness to revise economic policies to meet the changing times.” (HDSB)

Also, Prince John Davion acted as a generous/fool prince during the months following the fall of the Star League “First Prince John Davion, attempting to act like a First Lord, largely refused to allow the AFFS to loot the Hegemony (an activity the other Successor States engaged in with enthusiasm). With few exceptions, the Federated Suns had to covertly buy or steal what it wanted, using diplomacy to convince helpless worlds to ask for the Davions’ protection.” (HHD)


Now that we had a better knowledge of what he did, what can we learn from it?
Unlike what appears above, the lines below are merely my opinions and as such can be wrong, ignored and so on.

The main trait of character of Prince John Davion is that he is irresolute when put under great deal of pressure.
He reacts slowly during the Purge and after the fall of the Star League (although he should have been ready for it by now).
He prefers things that follow a clear plan, where he can build up his strength slowly until he has superiority.
He  knows how to react when left with enough time (see his attitude after the Towne debacle)..

He is courageous as he doesn't hesitate to lead his troops or to nationalize the whole industry when it is needed.
But on the other hand, he seems reluctant to use force against his own people when needed like during the Purge or after the wrong assessments made by his intelligence services (he might have been missing time to do that but it was his successor Prince Paul Davion that dealt with all the reforms that were never intended but that seemed necessary due to the poor performance of House Davion in the initial years of the 1st Succession War).

I also see it a bit like Richard Cameron living in a world of chivalry (perhaps a bit less than the Last Cameron): he do believe his kingdom needs to be less reliant on the Star League but doesn't take the appropriate measures, he prevents his troops from looting the former Star League facilities as it would be “improper”.

Some of these traits could have been changed if he had received a proper education aimed at making him a Prince but time was too short (2 years).
He probably received a military education, probably as a 'MechWarrior but this is all we know about his early education.
However, I don't think he is really the one to be blamed as he is probably the victim of a system that forgot what real war was, a system that to me feels like a sheep among wolves.
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

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Re: TA 2785 Character Profile: John Davion
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2010, 12:25:40 PM »

CJvR

Quote from: Ice Hellion on November 08, 2009, 05:37:51 PM
Quote
The main trait of character of Prince John Davion is that he is irresolute when put under great deal of pressure.
I dont think so, when faced with real pressure of a dysfunctional AFFS and an allout Kuritan invasion he acts fast, effectively and forcefully to solve the problem. I think he was more of a man that didn't like bad news, shooting the messenger type. Not until problems reach such levels that they cant be concealed anymore do they get through the Yes-men around him. Until that happens he proceeds with his plans and ideas regardless of the surrounding situation.

Quote from: Ice Hellion on November 08, 2009, 05:37:51 PM
Quote
He reacts slowly during the Purge and after the fall of the Star League (although he should have been ready for it by now).
Yeah, but does he consider the purge a major problem at all or just a disturbance for the lokal authorities to handle? He does have other more pressing matter to attend as the purge was under some of the worst years of the war IIRC.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 12:29:26 PM by Ice Hellion »
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Ice Hellion

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Re: TA 2785 Character Profile: John Davion
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2010, 12:29:47 PM »

Takiro

Good stuff Ice, I just wanted to state that it is my hope that this series of discussions will produce superior characters operating in their truest form.

Before I respond in detail I wanted to include some more facts on John Davion and perhaps ask a few questions of you.

John Davion was born in 2719 (according to both Davion books) and so would be 66 years old as of this report.

He assumed the throne in 2745 when he was 26 after his uncle passed becoming the 12th official First Prince of the Federated Suns and its 21st ruler.

Using data from the Succession War game John had a Combat Ability of a 2, Military Ability of a 2, and an Administration Skill of 3. What does all that mean? Combat Ability was a number added to a single attack or defense roll if the Leader was present in the contested space. I would say this ability denoted Combat Training and Experience (i.e. Mechwarrior or line service). Military Ability allowed any two friendly units to combine combat values if the Leader was present. This I would say was general strategic acumen. While Administration raised additional tax revenue in game and I would say is what it sounds like - ability to govern. On all these skills John compares favorably to his counterparts only outclassed by Jinjiro (who has a 3 in both Combat and Military) when it comes martial skills.


Question
Is he a Mechwarrior? (I would say yes) If so what Mech does he pilot? (just a guess Battlemaster??)


I do agree Ice - that John was an inexperienced ruler when he came to the throne a fact that may have helped him establish a relationship with Richard Cameron.

Your two different assessments may stem from a single truth in his underlying personality. He seems like an able manager but a responsive one perhaps overwhelmed by the staggering events of the day. What I'm trying to say is John doesn't seem very proactive or imaginative when it comes to his planning. He makes decisions only after the dye has been cast - often his reaction is good but tragically John always seems a step too slow.

I would also call him an stubborn idealist. Head in the clouds unable to see what really is instead reaching for that unattainable goal.

Altogether very nice summary Ice. I think we agree on a lot of this character. I'll be interested to hear what BlackTigerActual has for his insights into this character.
Logged


"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Ice Hellion

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Re: TA 2785 Character Profile: John Davion
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2010, 12:30:12 PM »

blacktigeractual

I think one of the biggest problems with charicterizing John is that little is written from his perspective.  My take on him is that he belives.  John belives in the Star League so much that he pulls out all the stops to try to keep it together.  This however causes him to be seen as overbearing and he unwittingly alienates people that if he had been more thoughtful in his approach.

He is however a House Lord and with the Star League gone he must put his realm first.  His belief in the SL doesn't wane but does take a back seat to this.  The biggest problem with the FS at this point is the AFFS.  It is a Paper Tiger in the truest sense.  George Hasek is pretty much talking out his ass with his description of John; the man was a product of his times much like anyone living in the US after WWII.  He is a victim of the Star League's success.

Consider this; what if John had had Hanse's AFFS?  (Okay with the FSNS Fleets.)  With a weapon like that; unified with a well trained professional officers core the 1st SW might have gone much differently.  Unfortunately the rot runs through out all things military from ground forces to naval and even Military Intelligence.

Now consider the time period.  The rug's been pulled out from under everybody.  John is an elder statesman at this point not a MechJock and his people around him are not prepared for this either.  My thoughts are that the FS was fairly intertwined with the Star League in terms of economy, bureaucracy and administration much like the Lyran Commonwealth (Who almost retired thier own currency at one point.)  While closed states like the Capellans and the Combine had som degree of separation and the Free Worlds League had it's own problems with what the SL did to thier economy; the FS is in Chaos right now with State institutions trying to cope with issues that the SL had taken care of; maybe some is this is mitagated by experience running things on thier own during the coup but still...

Anyway I'm rambling; John as I see him is a strong leader in a bad position.  His moral character can be a weakness at times as he can be inflexible at least initially but he isn't stupid.  When the writing is on the wall he will act for the best intrests of his people.  He wont give up the First Lord's title (The Regency if you will.) for the same reason I wouldn't; by law it is his.

If he were to get it, John truly belives he could bring peace to Human Space so it is his moral duty to try.  If the world were playing by John's rules he would have won already, the problem is nobody with the possible exception of Amanda would even consider it.

Anywhoo those are my thoughts on John Davion, say what you will, but always remember it's not wise to bet against him.  After all to quote Sarah; He is a Davion.
Logged


"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Ice Hellion

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Re: TA 2785 Character Profile: John Davion
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2010, 12:33:13 PM »

Ice Hellion

Quote from: CJvR on November 08, 2009, 06:32:04 PM
I dont think so, when faced with real pressure of a dysfunctional AFFS and an allout Kuritan invasion he acts fast, effectively and forcefully to solve the problem. I think he was more of a man that didn't like bad news, shooting the messenger type. Not until problems reach such levels that they cant be concealed anymore do they get through the Yes-men around him. Until that happens he proceeds with his plans and ideas regardless of the surrounding situation.

Interesting idea.
This could go well with a rise in bureaucracy linked to a peaceful period.

Quote from: CJvR on November 08, 2009, 06:32:04 PM
Yeah, but does he consider the purge a major problem at all or just a disturbance for the lokal authorities to handle? He does have other more pressing matter to attend as the purge was under some of the worst years of the war IIRC.

Risking a civil war in the middle of a losing war is a big issue.
And he did not have to do much: stating things and sending the religious leaders would have been easier.

Quote from: Takiro on November 09, 2009, 12:07:28 AM
Quote
Good stuff Ice, I just wanted to state that it is my hope that this series of discussions will produce superior characters operating in their truest form.
Using data from the Succession War game John had a Combat Ability of a 2, Military Ability of a 2, and an Administration Skill of 3. What does all that mean? Combat Ability was a number added to a single attack or defense roll if the Leader was present in the contested space. I would say this ability denoted Combat Training and Experience (i.e. Mechwarrior or line service). Military Ability allowed any two friendly units to combine combat values if the Leader was present. This I would say was general strategic acumen. While Administration raised additional tax revenue in game and I would say is what it sounds like - ability to govern. On all these skills John compares favorably to his counterparts only outclassed by Jinjiro (who has a 3 in both Combat and Military) when it comes martial skills.

I forgot to use that game.
According to what I read here, he would be average in combat and strategical abilities, which is coherent with an old man that was trained years ago and did not deploy armies that often (or a decent strategist with a Paper Tiger army slow to react).

Quote from: Takiro on November 09, 2009, 12:07:28 AM
Quote
Is he a Mechwarrior? (I would say yes) If so what Mech does he pilot? (just a guess Battlemaster??)

Probably as most Davion were trained as 'MechWarriors.
As for his 'Mech, no clue but maybe it could be a tradition to have the biggest 'Mech available (or it could become one, just look at Ian's 'Mech).

Quote from: Takiro on November 09, 2009, 12:07:28 AM
Quote
Your two different assessments may stem from a single truth in his underlying personality. He seems like an able manager but a responsive one perhaps overwhelmed by the staggering events of the day. What I'm trying to say is John doesn't seem very proactive or imaginative when it comes to his planning. He makes decisions only after the dye has been cast - often his reaction is good but tragically John always seems a step too slow.

See CJvR's answer.
We will have to chose one of the two solutions or combine both.

Quote from: Takiro on November 09, 2009, 12:07:28 AM
Quote
I would also call him an stubborn idealist. Head in the clouds unable to see what really is instead reaching for that unattainable goal.

Which is?
According to the different sources, it is the good of his realm; after all
Quote from: blacktigeractual on November 09, 2009, 02:52:39 AM
Quote
He is a Davion
.


but blacktigeractual thinks he believes in the Star League.
Quote from: blacktigeractual on November 09, 2009, 02:52:39 AM
Quote
My take on him is that he belives.  John belives in the Star League so much that he pulls out all the stops to try to keep it together.  This however causes him to be seen as overbearing and he unwittingly alienates people that if he had been more thoughtful in his approach.

I do not really agree with him as even before the fall of the Star League, he tried to become less dependant on the Star League
Quote from: Ice Hellion on November 08, 2009, 05:37:51 PM
Quote
“Determined to look after the interests of his nation, he continued to encourage less reliance on the Star League.” (HHD)
but if blacktigeractual is correct, he fails (which is a hint of his real ability to govern or the inefficiency of the Federated Suns bureaucracy, which would then favour the yes-men theory).

As I said and blacktigeractual seems to agree, he is a bit of a white knight or a highly morale guy in a real world (although he is also a master schemer when the need arose).

I am not sure he is trying to reach the impossible (as he is probably aware of the state of his army) but I think that he puts forwards that by right (not law) he is entitled to rule the Star League.
Does he believe in his own propaganda?

All this makes me look back in a strange way at the "elder statement" that he is supposed to be and at his cunning.
Logged


"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

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Re: TA 2785 Character Profile: John Davion
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2010, 12:34:32 PM »

FirstStarLord

What about John's physical appearence? Are we going to use the image of him displayed in Periphery 1st ed. SB? See pg. 55 for reference.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 12:34:51 PM by Ice Hellion »
Logged


"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Ice Hellion

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Re: TA 2785 Character Profile: John Davion
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2010, 12:35:02 PM »

Ice Hellion

Good question and no clue
Logged


"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Ice Hellion

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Re: TA 2785 Character Profile: John Davion
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2010, 12:35:42 PM »

Takiro

Quote from: FirstStarLord on November 13, 2009, 10:50:22 AM
Quote
What about John's physical appearence? Are we going to use the image of him displayed in Periphery 1st ed. SB? See pg. 55 for reference.

I'll have to look that up. Good hearing from you FSL. Wink
Logged


"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

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Re: TA 2785 Character Profile: John Davion
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2010, 12:38:11 PM »

Takiro

Still haven't looked up the pic but we have pics on the Succession War game cards.
Logged


"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Ice Hellion

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Re: TA 2785 Character Profile: John Davion
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2010, 12:38:30 PM »

Ice Hellion

Any other comment?
Logged


"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

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Re: TA 2785 Character Profile: John Davion
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2010, 12:39:12 PM »

Takiro

I think that is about it Ice. I looked up the picture FSL mentioned but it isn't very descriptive or usable in my opinion. Likely the one on the Succession War clip is more useful.

What do you think about a Cyclops for his personal Mech? I like because of his myopic personality
Logged


"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

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Re: TA 2785 Character Profile: John Davion
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2010, 12:42:59 PM »

Rainbow 6

The Cyclops sounds like a good mech for him but will it be a stock -10-Z or a custom model like Kenyon Marik's Battleaxe?
Logged


"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Ice Hellion

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Re: TA 2785 Character Profile: John Davion
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2010, 12:54:02 PM »

Ice Hellion

Quote from: Takiro on November 16, 2009, 01:09:11 AM
Quote
I think that is about it Ice. I looked up the picture FSL mentioned but it isn't very descriptive or usable in my opinion. Likely the one on the Succession War clip is more useful.

What do you think about a Cyclops for his personal Mech? I like because of his myopic person
ality

 Grin  Grin  Grin
Logged


"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Ice Hellion

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Re: TA 2785 Character Profile: John Davion
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2010, 12:54:38 PM »

Takiro

Quote from: Rainbow 6 on November 16, 2009, 06:18:12 PM
Quote
The Cyclops sounds like a good mech for him but will it be a stock -10-Z or a custom model like Kenyon Marik's Battleaxe?

VIPs such as House Lords piloting Mechs or special case Generals have what I call unique access to technology. These rare machines are the height of Successor State tech. Experimental projects wouldn't count which aren't as reliable could equal them as well but are again special cases.
Logged


"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5
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