OBT Forum
General BattleTech => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chaosticket on October 14, 2017, 06:58:35 PM
-
Ive played different console adaptations of Battletech and I like them. Theyre a pain to get working on modern computers but still great quite fun when I do. In all of them a big problem is just ballistic weapons of all sorts. I understand that Ballistic weapons are supposed to be more realistic than lasers and particle beams so having them on everything makes sense. However from a gameplay perspective they do not. Theyre not useless but they fulfill a niche to contrast with those Lasers and Particle beam weapons.
In the Mechwarrior games having Energy weapons is quite important as missions are almost never 1-on-1 engagements like what the Clans wish for and design many of their battlemechs for. No the missions are rather long and having weapons that will run out at some point. One major flaw in that series of adaptations is that weapons are converted from their tabletop power to "DamagePerSecond" leaving some weapons almost useless as you have to continuously fire them. Ballistic weapons in particular suffer from that especially Machineguns. On the tabletetop a Machinegun can have 200 turns of shooting for only 1 ton of ammunition. The Clan Piranha is a particularly cheesy design having 12 Machineguns. On the tabletop that would have people ragequit. In a Mechwarrior Game you would run out of ammunition after or even before taking out one enemy.
================
Energy Weapons have no ammunition concerns but require mounting enough heatsinks to actually keep cool. Range is another issue as depending on the Era the Particle Projection Cannon may be the only "long" range energy weapon available. Autocannon 5s are equal in range but Long Range Missiles beat them in range quite handily.
Extended Range energy weapons have higher heat buildup but also more range. On Inner Sphere battlemechs the additional range is by my opinion not worth it except for the Extended Range Particle Project Cannon.
For me the basic setup is to have either Large Lasers or Particle Projections on everything.
On the tabletop I favor designs like the Inner Sphere battlemechs, the Warhammer, Marauder, Flashman, and Awesome.
Clan technology improves Energy Weapons and battlemech builds around them massively. The Clan ER damage increases by up to 50% on ER PPCs. Clan ER Large Lasers outrange LRMs and most Autocannons. Clan Pulse Lasers double in range.
Clan have many more though some are actually overloaded with weapons especially Energy Weapons and not enough heat sinks to fire them all. The Nova, Warhawk, Supernova, and Dire Wolf are heavily equipped with Energy weapons and altering their loads makes them long-lived "laser boats".
============
Nearly all Ballistic weapons have massive weight problems. They take up a lot of critical slots. They require ammunition that takes up more weight and slots as well as being vulnerable to ammunition explosions. They usually have low heat buildup which hopefully requires very few Heat Sinks.
In the Mechwarrior games Ballistic Weapons are just bad and lose out to Energy Weapons. Best I can get out of them is to try mounting one or two Ultra Autocannons or Gauss Rifles for extra firepower while Alpha Striking.
Strangely in Mechcommander 2 Ballistic Weapons are at their peak as by default all weapons have unlimited ammunition. Its easy to mount Autocannons on battlemechs with low heat limits and still perform very well.
===================
Missile Weapons are specialized by ranges but are pretty effective inside them as mounting more missiles is a simple method of mounting more tubes. Long Range Missiles are a heavy staple of many battlemech builds especially Clan LRMs that have a massive available range.
LRMs are just very good in most instances but they work best in conjunction with Energy weapons to conserve ammunition as well as compensate for the minimum range Inner Sphere Long Range Missiles have.
Multiple Missile Launchers for the Inner Sphere and Advanced Tactical Missiles for the CLans have greater versatility as they can carry multiple ammunition choices though they compete directly with the existing LRMs.
One major problem in campaigns that can be overlooked is that replacement Missiles can be quite expensive. For example an LRM ammunition ton costs fives times what standard AC-10 ton of ammunition does.
===============
I know there are tabletop builds that favor Ballistic Weapons as you dont need to worry about ammo in oneshot games. Pillager, Thunderhawk, Devastator and the like have powerful Ballistic Weapons so they can have massive fire power per turn. The backstory of the Devastator is stated to actually caused enemies to surrender through its massive firepower. Another assault class battlemech, the Annihilator has 4 LBX Autocannon 10s to just splatter targets.
So which do you prefer as your primary weapon, Ballistics, Energy, or Missiles?
-
First off, welcome aboard Chaosticket!
I seem to be on an energy weapon kick lately especially for the Clans. Their high tech extended range lasers and PPCs combined with big engines for speed make for some pretty scary configurations. Tough to beat.
Now for the InnerSphere who traditionally uses smaller engines I tend to think ballistics and missiles have their advantages over their short ranged high heat energy arsenal.
My favorite weapon combo actually combines ballistic and energy weapons by pairing Gauss Rifles with ER PPCs. This pairing has impressive range for both the Clans and the InnerSphere while generating moderate heat for solid damage. It works for InnerSphere and Clan designs with the possibility of head-capping your poor opponent.
-
For clan designs especially I like energy weapons as "main" guns but I don't like lots of lasers because you can never vent all that heat so a mix is best
I have always disliked the awesome because it's all energy even with a decent amount of heats you take engine or heat sink hits and lose your ability to keep firing
Instead a mix of missile, ballistic, laser, special equipment (ECM, AMS) makes a good mech
I gave up comparing game to table
-
There are some combinations between Ballistic and Energy Weapons that are used often.
#1 Medium Lasers as secondary weapons for Gauss Rifles or larger Autocannons. Depending on the Autocannon size the lasers may just be short-ranged backups (AC-5s) or low-weight extra firepower (AC-10/20)s.
#2 Particle Projection Cannons extra long range firepower(PPC armed Devastator). Lower rated can be used instead of Gauss Rifle with the AC-10 being a decent replacement.
On lower weight class mechs carrying energy weapons is much more preferable. Four Medium Lasers take 4 tons(plus heat sinks) while an AC-20 takes 14 tons plus at least one ton of ammo.
-
Its why we don't really see that many one weapon type Mechs. Or when you do they are very specialized in their role. The Supernova is built to engage at long range with its massed ER large lasers, same with the Warhawk Prime and its ER PPCs, and the Awesome etc. But most Mech's carry a decent mix of large and small, of ballistic and laser although you'll usually see that on heavies and assaults, but Clan Mediums can do it with some penalties.
Of course this then leads to the use of the waste of tonnage that is the AC-2 but what can you do.
-
#2 Particle Projection Cannons extra long range firepower(PPC armed Devastator). Lower rated can be used instead of Gauss Rifle with the AC-10 being a decent replacement.
Speaking of the Devastator you may be interested in this link!
https://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/index.php?topic=3387.0 (https://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/index.php?topic=3387.0)
-
There are plenty of mechs with heavy emphasis if not solely relying on one weapon. For Energy Weapons the problem is of course not being able to mount enough heat sinks to cover them all.
The Warhawk is certainly one of my favorite clan mechs in idea. In practice I would strip off half its Clan ER PPCs for other weapons.
Nova, strip off some of its ER Medium Lasers for ER Large Lasers and maybe Short Range Missiles.
Dire Wolf remove half its ER Large Lasers and improve the Ultra Autocannons and Long Range Missiles.
Supernova keep 2 ER Large Lasers and replace the rest. LRM-20s would be the most likely choice.
Clan are about using all their weight saving tech to have additional Ballistic or Missile Weapons and Alpha Strike with everything. Trying to make an all-Energy clan assault mech is a waste.
Inner Sphere mechs are more about carrying Medium Lasers for close range and high heat efficiency. A single PPC is complimented by having 2-3 medium Lasers. An Awesome assault mech with 2 PPCs and 4-6 Medium Lasers is practical. Replacing the PPCs with extended range versions gives improved range and makes the Medium Lasers more useful because of their heat efficiency as a counter to Extended Range energy weapons. Its fun building up a large number of Medium Lasers on just about any IS battlemech, maybe surprising someone expecting a Sniper or Missile Boat.
Im puzzled when clan battlemechs are designed to be unable to ALpha Strike like the Dire Wolf as It would blow up if it tried. Inner SPhere battlemechs are often are designed around having a "sweet spot" where every weapon is available.
-
Yep, this is one of the aims of my Quicksilver Upgrade Contests. Correct and optimize some flawed configurations.
-
Yeah, ballistics have their good points - if you try MechwarriorOnline, you'd see their take, and while I prefer energy weapons the AC/PPC/LRM combo has become the must-have. Without it, I won't buy the Mech!
On the other hand, there are no shortage of house rules dealing with ACs. My own uses the metalstorm solution; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8hlj4EbdsE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8hlj4EbdsE)
-
It all depends.
Energy weapons are lighter and don't need ammo but Heat Sinks.
Ballistic weapons are heavier and need ammo but usually no Heat Sinks.
If you are playing a campaign, energy weapons are the way to go (unless you try not to optimise your 'Mechs).
-
I dont see Ballistic Weapons ever being really viable by themselves as they have too many drawbacks. One is just that Ballistic weapons compete with Missiles as a low-heat option.
Ac-20 or 2+ SRM-6s?
LBX-20 or 2+ Streak SRM-6s?
Now the Ultra-Ac-20 just does enormous damage for its weight, thats a given. It does have a pathetic endurance with 2.5 turns of shooting per ton of ammunition.
That is still just a matter of how many SRMs or Medium Lasers. Autocannons greatest strength is the Damage-to-heat ratio. Machineguns have zero heat buildup, so maybe carry 8 for anyone who tries to get you into melee.
-
AC/20 is an outlier because it concentrates all 20 damage in one location - unless the target already has armour breaches, this is better than getting the damage spread in 5 or 2 point bits.
Comparing the AC/10 and PPC damage is the same but the PPC has slightly more range. The PPC weighs 7 tons and would require 10 tons of single heatsinks (assuming engine sinks are already utilised). The AC/10 weighs 12 tons and needs 3 single heatsinks, but you likely want at least 2 tons of ammo.
So for 17 tons you can take either, but the PPC has a little more range and won't run out of ammo, giving it a slight edge. Vehicles balance this a bit better since there's no need for the autocannon to have heatsinks, meaning it's a little cheaper ton for ton.
-
I think energy weapons tend to favor higher speed (aka bigger engine) Mechs (more inherent heat sink capacity) while ballistic weapons are found on slower (aka smaller engine) Mechs (less inherent heat sink capacity.
-
Plus with AC's you get to faff around with special ammo types, especially the bog standard ACs.
-
Okay about face on this. Autocannons can be very powerful, especially in 3025 era. The AC-10 is heavy and large but its also powerful.
Compare a PPC with an Ac-10.
PPC takes 7 tons and 3 slots+10 tons and slots for heat sinks. So 17 tons and 13 slots.
Ac-10 takes 12 tons and 7 slots+at least 1 ton and 1 slots for ammunition. So 13 tons and 8 slots.
Now the Large Laser is closer at 5tons and 2 slots+8 tons/slots of Heat Sinks. So 13 tons and 10 slots.
Between the PPC and Ac-10 even if you have to carry additional ammunition its still heavily in favor of the Ac-10 unless the ammo explodes.
It takes subsequent Eras to close this gap and Heat Sinks always take up more space than ammunition.
In the clan Era energy weapons finally become close counterparts
-
Unfortunately long range autocannons were not invented or rediscovered. I guess you could say the Gauss Rifle was the upgrade.
-
The LBX and later Ultra AUtocannons have more range than standard Autocannons, but yeah its Gauss Rifles that are basically the replacements using 3039+ technology.
However there are Hypervelocity Autocannons past 3060, but the Gauss Rifle is superior to the HPV Autocannon-10 so I dont know the point
-
I honestly expected this thread to go further, taking about successful equipment combinations.
I like the Pillager as a base design as it combines Jump Jets, long range Gauss Rifles, and energy weapons. Its missing Missiles and it can only use all of its weapons at less than half its maximum range.
The Mad cat Mark II furthers that design as its clan technology means its energy weapons and overall the entire design is longer range, its faster and 10 tons lighter.
Missiles and Energy weapons are easily compatible. Its easy to back up some long range energy weapons with ShortRangeMissiles and use LongRangeMissiles with medium range energy weapons like Medium Lasers. Ballistic weapons are more difficult as they are just so heavy and the damage differences between models is massive. Converting from different Models of LRMs or SRMs is easy but changing from and Ac-5 to and Ac-20 is a drastic design change.
---------------
Differences between the Mechwarrior games and the tabletop change things heavily. What works on one probably wont on the other. Jump Jets are very useful on the tabletop while in video games they are overrated aside from Mechcommander where they are very useful. Technically aside from some obvious improvements from clan technology there are no "bad" tabletop designs, just ones that are situational.
-
Since you mentioned the computer games, the newest one did more to differentiate them. IIRC the lasers are relatively unchanged but autocannon do more damage at a trade off of recoil making them less accurate for every consecutive round they fire. Meanwhile missiles have an increased impact on stability, giving you a better chance of causing PSRs.
I haven't tried the game myself but it does give the different types of weapon a more distinct feel.