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Author Topic: Battletech Economics  (Read 10218 times)

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MageOhki

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Battletech Economics
« on: April 11, 2011, 04:36:44 PM »

Oddly enough, for all of FASA's pure idiotic behavior on the econ (ie, "What economy") Battletech's economy _can_ be explained.

Breif primer:  There's two major consdierations in industrial manfacture.
First is "style of production" which can be boiled down to Craftsman style _or_ Fordism.
Craftsman style is very highly trained experts, knowing excalty what they do, and the 'industry' is set up to maximize their edges, Guilds, unions, etc, etc.  It's also very hard to expand this fast.
Fordism, is basically an _smaller_ pool of trained experts to desgin, then _lay_ out _production_ lines, which even low level trained workers can do the tasks (Ford was an genius of rare caliber.)
Battletech uses the former.
Proudction Distrubtion Model.
Three primary models
All in one plants (Russian style)
Limited distrubtion plants.  US, several other people's style. Where you tend to cluster as much as possible to minimize shipping, but still have parts all flow to area.  US model, to some extent currently.
Cottage industry.  Japanese model.
Lots and lots of little feeder plants, into one central assembly area.
At _best_ the people do the last two.  I'm sure you can realize the disavdanagtes of those two.

So.
Given that BT uses the worst posisble basis for these, you begin to understand why production is so low (for popluation) and why total equipment is so low.

"Why hasn't it changed!"
Very simple: People are conservative.  By and large, people _don't_ change, unless not only is there a reason to change, but someone risks all (and lots of people are not risk takers in this sense)

Combined with the facts of the owners being nobility, and Cameron (or Comstar, your choice, or jsut general weardown) wiping out Fordism, you pretty much get the excat economic model present in BT.
By accident.

A.
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Dread Moores

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Re: Battletech Economics
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2011, 04:54:11 PM »

So.
Given that BT uses the worst posisble basis for these, you begin to understand why production is so low (for popluation) and why total equipment is so low.

Why production is so low compared to more modern style Fordism? Absolutely. That doesn't help at all with the economics. Even with cottage industries or craftsman style production, there should be hundreds if not thousands of more of those cottage industries or craftsman style locations. Cray over on the BT forum archives has done some excellent write ups of how the some of the lower GDP countries (with much smaller percentage of the GDP going to military budgets) could afford ten or more regiments of forces a year, including production, training, housing, transportation, and all the rest.

There's a great deal made about the interstellar trade barriers as well (lack of JumpShips), which would be a great explanation for the bottleneck...if an overwhelming majority of the IS planets didn't require outside trade simply to survive. None of that really works to explain the economics of the situation. It is the way it is because FASA wrote it that way, long before folks thought about that kind of big picture in game design. It might not be realistic, it might be silly, but it is internally consistent. It works because it follows the rules of the universe, even if the rules don't always make sense.  :)

I made my peace with them a long time ago, as I find that changing them much really begins to break the paradigm and bring down internal consistency. I'm okay with FASAnomics as a excuse, even though they're really, really goofy with holes that entire BattleMech regiments can be driven through.  ;D
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Battletech Economics
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2011, 04:58:28 PM »

I think the Star League tried the Fordist approach but the decrease in engineering and knowledge lead to the craftsmanship getting the upper hand.
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in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

MageOhki

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Re: Battletech Economics
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2011, 01:12:27 AM »

Not quite, Dread.  Craftmanship requires _experts_ in their field, and is low volume production period. It's also very hard to train up in an lot of ways.  Combine the wars, with an general downgrading of knowledge, you get the situation you're in.   There's also the fact that craftism fits the perfered _building_ style (we call it rangkok proofing), in an lot of ways. (This is not to say you can't produce very viable and long lasting items under Fordism, not at all, but craftsman style building does last longer) It's very easy for an craftsman based soceity to be driven below an viable expansion level.  Espically if the _underlying_ prinipals behind how to build the tools are another 'guild's field.  Lose that guild... well now. 


Acutally, Ice, the SL _didn't_ WANT an Fordism system. They'd be buried by the Great Houses if that happened.  They were very much the likey reason why it got wiped out.  Note the nations that applied Fordism to the best extent, and those that didnt, pre and during War 2.  Note trends and general 'political' style. 
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Blacknova

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Re: Battletech Economics
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2011, 01:18:04 AM »

Serioulsy guys, do you know how many Catgirls have died during the course of this conversation?
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Dread Moores

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Re: Battletech Economics
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2011, 02:50:07 AM »

Not quite, Dread.

Not quite what? I'm a little confused what you're referring to here. I'm pretty much in agreement with you on why production levels are low. The only real thing I disagree on is linking that to the actual economies. My only point was that Houses have a great deal more available funds, even with insanely low tax rates of 1 to 5%, than canon normally shows now. With the 3 billion per world average population, even the limited production could be easily overcome with the amount of funds available to the average Successor State. It really shouldn't, as it breaks the universe badly. I get why it hasn't been made to reflect the available resources.

Also, the loss of knowledge thing? Yeah, it's really one of the worst written parts of the BT past history. I'm a big ComStar fan, but Holy Shroud and the wackiness of the Succession Wars "loss of knowledge" is laugh out loud funny. They absolutely need to be there, as they make the setting work at the scale that it works best at. They're still funny as all get out. :)

Anyway, an argument wasn't intended, and I don't really have a vested interest in a debate about this. It's been covered a lot better by folks far smarter than I. The above is just my opinions, and I'm sticking to them. They work for me.  ;)
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Knightmare

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Re: Battletech Economics
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2011, 07:44:02 AM »

+1 Dead Moores
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Battletech Economics
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2011, 02:40:27 PM »

Serioulsy guys, do you know how many Catgirls have died during the course of this conversation?

None  ;)

Acutally, Ice, the SL _didn't_ WANT an Fordism system. They'd be buried by the Great Houses if that happened.  They were very much the likey reason why it got wiped out.  Note the nations that applied Fordism to the best extent, and those that didnt, pre and during War 2.  Note trends and general 'political' style. 

Call it toyotism and automatisation.
And for craftmanship, the theory is that you must have experts and that they produce top of the line things but the truth might be a little different.
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Dread Moores

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Re: Battletech Economics
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2011, 03:29:56 PM »

The Targe was produced. Any concepts of craftmanship go right out the window with that thing.  ;D
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klinktastic

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Re: Battletech Economics
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2011, 03:37:04 PM »

LOL!  The Targe...a fine offering from our friend Ken.
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Siden Pryde

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Re: Battletech Economics
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2011, 01:26:45 PM »

Interesting, and seems to fit with the feel of the universe.

And because it needs to be posted:

Dread Moores

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Re: Battletech Economics
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2011, 09:15:25 PM »

And this is exactly why more physics discussions should happen.  ;)
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Knightmare

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Re: Battletech Economics
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2011, 03:05:05 PM »

+1 again, just not this topic...
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Ken

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Re: Battletech Economics
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2011, 11:08:22 AM »

Unlike Quikscell products, the Targe is finely crafted. The design work, however, is severely flawed.
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Dread Moores

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Re: Battletech Economics
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2011, 12:57:34 PM »

Unlike Quikscell products, the Targe is finely crafted. The design work, however, is severely flawed.

Oh, it was quite finely crafted. Best marketing campaign ever, to get those sales numbers. The sales agents had to be Canopian. ;)
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