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Author Topic: ComGuard Force Composition  (Read 11904 times)

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Knightmare

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Re: ComGuard Force Composition
« Reply #60 on: March 18, 2012, 05:28:38 PM »

Just a question: what is the level of the smallest unit Comstar is expected to use/deploy?

Where are they being deployed?

Guess it would depend on the situation & location. I'm sure for a small garrison, a Level I of infantry might suffice, whereas a slightly larger garrison might have a mixed Level II to provide protection.

Dealer's choice really.
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Halvagor

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Re: ComGuard Force Composition
« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2012, 03:02:13 PM »

Most militaries are set up such that they have a "base" unit, which is the smallest unit they prefer to deploy on independent operations.  For the US Army, this is now the brigade (once it was the division); the US Marines go with the battalion/squadron.  The British use the battalion as well (though often call it a regiment; nomenclature is tricky in English).  This is the level at which most non-combat enablers (MPs, medical personnel, mechanics, administrative personnel, civil affairs personnel, lawyers, intelligence, dedicated planning staff, etc) are attached to enable the unit to function on its own.  There are always deviations from this standard, but it's the organization's default level of operation.

What is that level for ComStar? 

I'd guess that prior to the Clan Invasion they didn't have one.  Just as it's unlikely many of their garrisons openly showed aerospace fighters, there are some things you don't show your hand with when you're trying to prevent people from knowing you have the largest army in the Inner Sphere.  And when in pre-3050 garrison mode, ComStar could accomplish many of these non-combat enabler functions through its HPG compounds -- this would rather explain why ComStar 'Mech jockeys were around to be spotted by Akira Brahe and Riva Allard at Hilton Head in 3028 (ComStar was stupid not to have shut down all their military operations at Hilton Head during the wedding...but clearly The Plot demanded otherwise). 

After the ComGuard stopped the Clan Invasion and began rebuilding into a true deployable field army, I believe FM: ComStar says their standard-deployable unit is the Level III, but that doesn't mean there aren't worlds with a couple Level IIs by themselves.  Just that the organization as a whole prefers to deploy Level IIIs.  The constant reshuffling of units carried out by Focht would make life on these non-combat enablers, but that's how things go. 
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Ice Hellion

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Re: ComGuard Force Composition
« Reply #62 on: March 19, 2012, 03:24:15 PM »

Answering this question could help us with the Aerospace Fighters support problem but we could also decide that ComStar have a specific Aerospace branch.
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Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
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The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Knightmare

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Re: ComGuard Force Composition
« Reply #63 on: March 19, 2012, 04:02:29 PM »

Halvagor nailed it. Well written.
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Ice Hellion

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Re: ComGuard Force Composition
« Reply #64 on: March 19, 2012, 05:11:12 PM »

Halvagor nailed it. Well written.

Than Takiro should reconsider its organisation.
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Takiro

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Re: ComGuard Force Composition
« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2012, 11:41:41 PM »

Well the plan is to make the Level IV renamed brigades (cause that is what they are numerically two regiments) the formation of my ComGuards post Tukayyid. I will continue to discuss with you all the divergent composition I plan for these units which is key for rebuilding the force quickly. Faster than canon is the plan taking a page from the ComGuards of the Jihad era who mobilized non Mech assets in order to restore their strength. Again it will focus on greater qualities of conventional armor to replace Mechs in more traditional pre-Clan HPG security assignments that some of the force will resume in my developing setting. With more of these second line garrison troops deployed I hope to get back to the 72 (divisions) brigade number by 3055.

Note units will retain their old numbers just change their name from division to brigade. Example, the 1st ComGuard Division will become the 1st ComGuard Brigade. Although I am considering designating the new armor based brigades to ComStar Militias and the new aerospace based brigades AeroStar Guards. Like to hear your opinion though might be a bit much.

Likewise the Level V is to be re-designated a Division (again more accurate) but here the change is more significant. These new divisions will be modeled specifically after the SLDF Divisions which composed the original ComGuards. The plan is to restore the historic formations (see the SLDF units that remained on Terra with Blake) instead the 1st-12th plus Armies that composed the ComGuards at one time or another. I want the Order to claim the rightful mantle of the heroic SLDF which continues to defend the InnerSphere from all threats including the Clans. Yeah propaganda but an effective recruiting tool that acknowledges their origins. Also 4-6 brigades filling out various divisions in different ways makes for quite an effective force. Imagine a ComGuard BattleMech Division (6 regiments of Mechs, 3 plus regiments of conventional forces along with aerospace support nice to fight the Clans) or a Mechanized Infantry Division (3 regiments of Mechs with 6 regiments of conventional forces plus aerospace support nice to split in garrison duty).

A new strategic formation designated a Level VI would now be designated an Army and make certain the ComGuards can handle their new dual assignments. In this two front war scenario now faced by the Order you can have the 1st Army with the majority of Mech units deployed against the Clan threat while the 2nd Army more conventional in nature deals with security of the HPG network. That is 36 brigades organized into 6 divisions for each Army backed nicely by the ComStar Fleet which is already split into 2 formations, mainly.

Thoughts?

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Halvagor

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Re: ComGuard Force Composition
« Reply #66 on: March 20, 2012, 03:02:00 PM »

Changing the Level IV to "Brigade", renaming the Level V to "Division" and inventing a new Level VI "Army"?  I'm quite fine with that. 

I don't know about the ComStar Militia or AeroStar Guards, though.  The latter I'm fine with in general, especially for aerospace-pure forces like the units attached to ComGuard Fleet elements.  Not sure whether it would fit well in army-side of the ComGuards.  As for ComStar Militia...I'm of two minds about this.  While I think it only natural that all Inner Sphere militaries make a distinction between Line and Militia forces (as nearly all militaries have throughout history), I don't know how simple that is.  ComStar has always fielded combined arms, so I'm not sure where the dividing line would be.  A more generic "XX brigade" makes Focht's shell-game of constantly mixing and reforming ComGuard units easier to emulate.  Unless instead you want to play Hohiro Kurita's shell game of renaming units all the time, too.
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Ice Hellion

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Re: ComGuard Force Composition
« Reply #67 on: March 20, 2012, 03:15:38 PM »

I don't know about the ComStar Militia or AeroStar Guards, though.  The latter I'm fine with in general, especially for aerospace-pure forces like the units attached to ComGuard Fleet elements.  Not sure whether it would fit well in army-side of the ComGuards.  As for ComStar Militia...

From what I read in Takiro's latest post, Militia units seem to be the name of the infantry/armour heavy units.

And for the Guards, this seems more logical but the problem is linking the operations of the Fleet and the Ground Forces.
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Halvagor

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Re: ComGuard Force Composition
« Reply #68 on: March 20, 2012, 03:39:47 PM »

Right, I get that the Militia are intended to be the name for the defensive infantry/armor-heavy units, but if his ComGuards are still playing the shell game of mixing and reforming units constantly, as the Canon Focht was doing, the names would presumably change with the composition of the unit, making it easy for prospective enemies to get a rough gauge on what composes any particular unit.  If the names don't change (for example, if all the brigades in the 2nd Army are ComGuard Militia) then are you still going to call a brigade "ComGuard Militia Brigade" if it has been reconfigured to have 108+ 'Mechs?
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Knightmare

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Re: ComGuard Force Composition
« Reply #69 on: March 20, 2012, 05:15:58 PM »

That might be the crux of the current assumption being made...Where is Takiro diverging from canon Focht, or even using him at all? If the composition changes are being proposed without changes to the ComGuard's use and history, then I side firmly with Halvagor on this one. There's a distinct disconnect between the new composition and the text.

But if there are also changes being made to the storyline, then all bets are off. Composition changes could reflect almost any new use or history for Takiro's ComGuard formations.

   
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Takiro

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Re: ComGuard Force Composition
« Reply #70 on: March 21, 2012, 02:17:12 AM »

With regards to Focht you'll have to wait and see. ;) What I want to do with this thread is come up with reasonable changes to the ComGuard organization that better its efficiency and operation. With that in mind I have tried to play with the Level IV Composition specifically. I'm still trying to find the best mix of the four units (Mech, Armor, Infantry, and Aerospace) that make up these formations. I will try to install an aerospace "floor" of 12 or 18 fighters for each formation but should I do the same with the other units as well? My new Alpha which I called my Apex formation contained no Armor. I think it works but is that to radical a change for the Combined Arms ComGuard to undertake?
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Dread Moores

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Re: ComGuard Force Composition
« Reply #71 on: March 21, 2012, 11:59:01 AM »

Personal taste will probably win out here. But if you're making the level IV the standard unit, that means that unit is capable of handling the large majority of needs that may come up. Without armor, I don't see units handling "the large majority of needs." Additionally, what exactly is the goal of these units? In canon material, the ComGuard's unique structure served two key purposes. First, the diverse mix of forces allowed for large units to be broken into much smaller sub-units (level IIs or so) and serve as acceptable garrison forces for a large number of facilities (HPGs). Second, the diverse mix of forces allowed for large units to be hugely effective against the Clans. That's it. As soon as you set those two things aside, the ComGuards really weren't that great of a military. Taking and holding territory? Not something they were built to do. Static defenses of large swathes of territory (like Successor State militaries do)? Again, not something they were built to do.

So I think it's difficult to propose changes without knowing the backdrop. In canon material, we know very clearly the ComGuard's purpose and Focht's effect on them (as Halvagor mentioned). Without knowing that here, we're making blind changes to the ComGuards. Pretty soon, they'll end up resembling the other faction's militaries and lose what makes them unique. They were a military made for a limited number of very specific purposes (and post Tukayyid, pretty much one specific purpose). Their leader played a big part in defining the military. That's one of the reasons why they failed so badly during the Jihad. The Blakists changed and evolved to become an army of conquest. When ComStar tried to do the same thing with Case White (and during the Liberation), they took disproportionally high losses compared to other Coalition armies. They were not an army of conquest.

I mention all that, because it showcases the uniqueness of structure and clarity of purpose that the ComGuards hold as a military. Setting aside specific unit differences, the Successor State militaries are generic militaries. Some specialize in one aspect more than another, but they are all largely built to fulfill a variety of roles (conquest, defense, and raiding). The ComGuards were not built that way. They were built for a specific purpose (a purpose that changed later, once Focht and the Clans got involved) and remained committed to that purpose. Their role as the Battletech version of the U.N. is something that makes them unique. When you are making changes to them, be careful not to lose that uniqueness and simply turn them into another generalist Successor State military. And when you're asking for suggestions without knowing the unique circumstances that form this version of the ComGuards (how Focht plays in, etc.)...it becomes difficult. Those very things are what made the canon ComGuards, the ComGuards.
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Ice Hellion

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Re: ComGuard Force Composition
« Reply #72 on: March 21, 2012, 02:59:08 PM »

In canon material, the ComGuard's unique structure served two key purposes. First, the diverse mix of forces allowed for large units to be broken into much smaller sub-units (level IIs or so) and serve as acceptable garrison forces for a large number of facilities (HPGs). Second, the diverse mix of forces allowed for large units to be hugely effective against the Clans. That's it. As soon as you set those two things aside, the ComGuards really weren't that great of a military.

I agree with ComGuards first goal but the second? You should perhaps say that they wanted their larger formations to be more flexible and efficient than the standard 'Mech units that had become so important in the Successor States military forces.
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Halvagor

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Re: ComGuard Force Composition
« Reply #73 on: March 21, 2012, 03:47:07 PM »

With regards to Focht you'll have to wait and see. ;) What I want to do with this thread is come up with reasonable changes to the ComGuard organization that better its efficiency and operation. With that in mind I have tried to play with the Level IV Composition specifically. I'm still trying to find the best mix of the four units (Mech, Armor, Infantry, and Aerospace) that make up these formations. I will try to install an aerospace "floor" of 12 or 18 fighters for each formation but should I do the same with the other units as well? My new Alpha which I called my Apex formation contained no Armor. I think it works but is that to radical a change for the Combined Arms ComGuard to undertake?

Before you find the "right mix" you'd first have to determine what purpose the ComGuards are fulfilling.  Are they geared to the twin responsibilities of countering the Clans and defending HPGs?  Your "Apex" is fine if you want to engage a Clan Galaxy in a straight-up fight; the Clanners are likely to bid away all their aerospace and Elemental forces when against it, to make it a more glorious fight.  But, as I believe I said before, I think your Apex is at a terrible disadvantage against a FedCom RCT, and you'd have to make a Level V "division" before it was near parity with one of those formations.

For a "defensive" unit, higher numbers of tanks and lower numbers of 'mechs are fine; aerospace should never be shorted, however, as proper aerospace assets can prevent the enemy from ever landing at all (which is why I think the Outworlds have the most intelligently-designed military in BattleTech, and why I discount the effectiveness of the Concordat). All this said, I think you still have too much infantry in most of your formations that have significant amounts of infantry.  Infantry is great for holding ground, counter-insurgency, and static guarding.  It's not good for defending against 'Mechs or armor in a game as biased against the PBI as BattleTech.  A Level II of infantry probably provides only as much combat power as a Level I of 'Mechs, yet you've got brigades with 72 units of infantry -- using my rubric, that's a company of 'mechs, but taking up two complete Level IIIs.  Great for garrisoning HPG compounds of far-flung worlds, bad for fending off pirates or planetary invasions.

If you're designing part of the ComGuards to deal with the Clans, then those ComGuard units should make use of the Clans' known weaknesses, particularly in long-duration, multi-threat combined-arms conflicts.  Throw in skirmisher hovercraft and medium/heavy tanks with decent mobility.  The MechWarrior-bred Clanners (except probably the Hells Horses) will dismiss them as irrelevant and essentially bid only against the ComGuard 'Mech and aerospace forces, or else throw PG Clusters at these ComGuard forces; either way, the Clans are walking into a trap deliberately laid by the ComGuards (and the FedCom, if anyone would ever remembers that "RCT" is not a random set of letters after a 'Mech regiment's name). 

Every real military is designed to suit the expected needs of its state.  This means it tends to be built deliberately, and also that it is not always equipped or prepared to handle something it wasn't intended to do.  The ComGuard conduct on Tukayyid was sufficient, but coordination between Level IIIs and Level IVs probably not up to the standards of any of the House militaries, simply because the ComGuards, until 3052, were a garrison force rather than a field army. 
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Dread Moores

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Re: ComGuard Force Composition
« Reply #74 on: March 21, 2012, 04:49:21 PM »

Actually, what might make the most sense is to make infantry a secondary support force. Keep infantry forces (including BA) separate from the whole level II/III/etc structure. Assign them as needed to each unit, making the transports/infantry/BA a second level II/III/etc joined with each unit. Make the core army out of Mechs, aero, and tanks.

And Hellion, that's one point where you and I will have a disagreement. The overwhelming majority of instances in fluff of combined arms forces going against the Clans have shown that is their major weakness. Tukayyid is the easiest example of that. Additionally, on the tabletop, I tend to own the Clans in combined arms. ;) So I'm biased. It's a shame that the Clans never adopted the combined arms model. They would have been so much more effective if most of them were modeled more like the Horses.

Halvagor has covered the rest of it.
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