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Author Topic: Crushing Amari's Terra  (Read 3773 times)

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Blacknova

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Crushing Amari's Terra
« on: May 12, 2012, 07:12:47 AM »

There is a topic over on CBT where the following question is asked:

"Why did Kerensky not just strike at Terra either before or after the campaign to take the Rim Worlds?"

The idea was to jump through unsettled systems, or use deep space locations like Freedom Station, and hit Terra with the full force of the SLN and SLDF.

As this formum is a much better place for reasoned discussion, supported by well presented evidence, I was wondering what you guys think of the chances, first the assault itself and secondly, what the campaign to follow would be like?
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Dragon Cat

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Re: Crushing Amari's Terra
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2012, 07:27:34 AM »

I think if Kerensky tried that he'd fail to take Terra, leaving the Rim Worlds unconquered would leave a potential enemy at his back.  The SLDF conquering the Rim Worlds gave Kerensky three things:

1) eliminating support for Amaris - which he had despite the most fanatical being on Terra.  If Kerensky had turned from the Rim Worlds and left it the troops there would have seen it as a sign that Amaris was right.  That Kerensky was afraid to take on Amaris people wherever they were.

2) it sent a message - screw with me and I'll screw you over - Amaris betrayed the SLDF and Kerensky - Kerensky saw it but he would not defy the Camerons and followed their orders.  Kerensky sees the Rim Worlds as Amaris true holdings on Terra he is only the conqueror.  By crushing the Rim Worlds Kerensky proves that to the Rim Worlds people that Amaris cares nothing for them and he proves to Amaris one simple thing "I'm going to take everything you've ever had"

3) he buys the SLDF time if he'd disappeared from public view Amaris may have been able to gain support from the rest of the Inner Sphere and have them all pull support for Kerensky.  By keeping everyone focused on the Rim Worlds Campaign and then the build up against Amaris it gave everyone time to see the lengths Kerensky would go to AND exactly what Amaris was like in charge on Terra.  By the time they began the Liberation campaign they had all heard whispers of what Amaris was doing or had seen it for themselves - supporting Amaris supported a war criminal and even the worse Succession Lord wouldn't support that.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 07:28:54 AM by Dragon Cat »
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Really, as long as there is an unbroken line of people calling themselves "Clan Nova Cat," it doesn't really matter to me if they're still using Iron Wombs or not. They may be dead as a faction, but as a people they still exist. It's not uncommon in the real world, after all.

Blacknova

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Re: Crushing Amari's Terra
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2012, 08:07:59 AM »

Fair enough, but the questionn also stands after taking the Rim Worlds, instead of the slugfest through the Hegemony.
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lrose

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Re: Crushing Amari's Terra
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2012, 08:46:57 AM »

Maybe he feared he'd get caught between two armies- the one on Terra and the one that Amaris could call in from the other Hegemony worlds once the SLDF landed on Terra. 

Also the campaign to liberate the TH has a lot in common with WW2 in the pacific- by hitting planets (islands) all around the Hegemony(the Pacific) he could wear down the enemy forces, depleting their troop strength, resources and equipment and improving the odds of winning a the final invasion of Terra(the Japanese home islands). 

You could argue that he needed staging bases near Terra but he could have used the Ross 248 or Lyuten 68-28 systems so I think that is a bit of a false argument.  However you could make the argument that he wanted to secure the TH worlds to prevent the House Lords from moving in to help "liberate" them and then annexing them. 
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Dragon Cat

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Re: Crushing Amari's Terra
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2012, 10:09:13 AM »

I'd agree the more Kerensky crushed down the Amaris troops the more they knew they were beaten psychologically they'd have been wrecks by the end of it, anyone that survived through the fight wouldn't have been any use if they escaped to Terra.

If they'd jumped straight to Terra Amaris would have had easy access to supplies and support.  The canon way allows Kerensky to call in support and support troops.

No cloak and no dagger just a sledgehammer, sounds like Kerensky to me

I guess the same could be said for the Clans, why conquer the Inner Sphere why not first eliminate Terra using their advanced navigation.  More so in the 3050s as Terra was independent an even easier target.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 10:11:46 AM by Dragon Cat »
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Really, as long as there is an unbroken line of people calling themselves "Clan Nova Cat," it doesn't really matter to me if they're still using Iron Wombs or not. They may be dead as a faction, but as a people they still exist. It's not uncommon in the real world, after all.

Ice Hellion

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Re: Crushing Amari's Terra
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2012, 11:23:48 AM »

4. Kerensky gets access to supplies, just in case something goes wrong.
5. The SLDF is able to let its anger come out and focus more seriously on the real target and the most difficult one.

As for a direct crush, it is too direct and dangerous.

Apart from the "psychological" impact on Amaris (being surrounded in space drove him insane or something like this), it reduces the number of units available to him for the final battle and I think it makes a little more sense if you think on the long run.
Imagine the SLDF going for Terra and winning... Would they be in shape to retake every planet occupied by the remains of the Rim Worlds Republic forces?

By doing so, Amaris might have made a mistake and launched somewhere a counterstrike.

It gives time to convince the reluctant future Successor States to join the party.

And it gives the SLDF better logistical bases if needed.

On the other hand, it increases the burden on the SLDF logistics at first ("how nice of you Sir to have delivered us but you see we are a mining planet and we need food, tools from planets X, Y and Z. Unfortunately, there are no Ships available") before the Houses get into the trading game.
Kerensky has also to act as Regent while working out his plans...
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drakensis

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Re: Crushing Amari's Terra
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2012, 01:59:29 PM »

Kerensky's canonical reasons for attacking the RWR before moving against the Hegemony, per pg. 102 of LoT1 were:

* Striking first for the Hegemony was what he thought Amaris would expect. Therefore it might be a trap.
* He needed a strong base that could be secured from outside eyes. Rebasing in a conquered RWR would allow security measures none of the Council Lords would permit in their realms.
* It let the SLDF have something less lethal than the Hegemony's defenses to throw themselves at while they wored through the initial shock
* Finally, while Amaris might be happy to write off the RWR, the core of his soldiers would know that their homes had been abandoned, undermining their morale.

It also gave him time to try to rally support from the Council Lords. They'd gone out of their way to build up their forces and if he could rally them to the support of the SLDF then they could be valuable reinforcements.
And of course he could use the industries Amaris had built up for his army to replace equipment losses, since the Hegemony was no longer a viable source.
Finally it gave time to consider how to plan to deal with attacking SDS protected systems. Not an easy task and one that needed time for intelligence gathering and military exercises to test theories.

His reasons for not hitting Terra directly rather than fighting world by world was that those worlds were individually easier to target and he could reasonably hope that each world liberated would become a source of supplies and recruits to sustain the war effort. Also it let tactics worked out for the situation be tested in practise against relatively weaker defenses. In general, an extension of his reasoning in picking the RWR as the first target.
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Halvagor

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Re: Crushing Amari's Terra
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2012, 04:51:28 PM »

The canon reasons for throwing the SLDF at the Rim Worlds itself are generally pretty sound.

The reasons for taking the Hegemony world-by-world are not.

Let's bring up the WWII comparison.  The key point of the Island Hopping campaign in the Pacific was that bases heavily fortified by the Japanese were isolated and ignored.  The key Japanese bases of Truk and Rabaul were still in Japanese hands when they surrendered, they'd simply been rendered insignificant.

The "needs supply bases" issue is often raised, but the realities of BattleTech's technology renders it moot.  So long as the SLDF could take territory anywhere on Terra, it would have its supply base.  And without the campaign to tackle the entire Hegemony, the SLDF, and particularly the SL Navy, would have been in much better shape.  Meanwhile, Amaris would have had years less time to prepare his defenses -- both the SDS and the conscript troops.  The SLDF, meanwhile, would have its full force available.

Once the SLN seizes the jump points in the Terra System, and clears the way to the planets, the rest of the SLN could concentrate at the jump points, both the standard ones and the predictable "pirate points" (and make no mistake; they're utterly predictable; it's called celestial mechanics, and no system's celestial mechanics would be better understood than that of Sol).  Naturally, a sizeable reserve would be maintained in case something odd happened.  But the SLN was still large enough that it could take the entire Rim Worlds Navy (or Amaris Imperial Navy, if you prefer) at one time and not bat an eye.  It's not like the Usurper's troops can easily bring their SDSes from other worlds, and those seemingly did the worst damage to the SLN during the years-long campaign to retake the Hegemony world-by-world.  So the SLDF would have an overwhelming naval superiority at Terra, had Kerensky attacked at once.

The SLDF was also still a finely trained instrument, and Amaris's forces were less so.  By giving Amaris nearly a decade to train and prepare for the obviously-inevitable Battle of Terra, Kerensky gave Amaris plenty of time to hire additional mercenaries, make use of the Hegemony's highly-advanced technology to reequip his forces, and create large conscript armies.  Kerensky played directly to Amaris's advantage, sapping the SLDF of irreplaceable men & equipment while giving Amaris plenty of time to keep manufacturing and training his own units.

Now, the other favorite concept, psychology.  Read Sunzi's Art of War some time; in it, the ancient Chinese general advises to always leave an enemy a way to retreat.  Sounds odd, at first, but it has a sound reason for it: people who feel trapped rightly recognize that they have two options: surrender or fight as if their lives depend on it.  The SLDF doesn't appear to have taken a whole lot of surrenders, and by cornering Amaris and his troops he gives them more motivation to fight hard, without breaking their will.  So by striking Terra immediately after leaving the RWR, Kerensky achieves strategic surprise, with all its well-known mentally-unsettling effects ("Wait, doesn't he have to take the other worlds, first? What's he doing here!"), while his Navy can assure that Amaris will not receive any reinforcements from the RWR troops uselessly garrisoning the rest of the Hegemony.

The fight for Terra would still be hard, but the SLDF would have been in much better shape to deal with it, there would have been many, many fewer losses to the SDS system.  Amaris would doubtless have tried to hold the rest of the Hegemony hostage, so the first order of business for the SLN would have been to conduct orbital strikes on every HPG in the Sol system, to prevent Amaris from issuing further orders to the rest of the Hegemony.  This might have taken long enough for him to still send out genocide orders, but there's no guarantee his troops would have followed such orders, anyway, and once you start genociding people, they tend to fight back -- for that same "you're going to kill me if I stand here, so I might as well die trying to kill you before you kill me" result.  Which means you could well have popular uprisings, and not a few Amaris units rebelling and killing their commissars (there are only a few commissars, after all, and a lot of soldiers).  Given that H:LoT I indicated there was a lot of shock and outrage at the Usurption among Amaris's own troops (who had nevertheless just seized the Hegemony), the chance for significant defections from the RWR/AI forces is very large. 

So, checkmate in two moves.

Once Amaris was dead -- and thus the proverbial snake decapitated -- how many of the remaining RWR troops would have remained loyal to him?  Likely not very many.  And Kerensky would have plenty of troops still alive to handle the few hardliners, while many, possibly most, of the Hegemony worlds would have been retaken without a fight.  The SLDF would have been quite strong enough then to awe the Council Lords, and potentially return to the Periphery to force them back into line -- they certainly didn't have any significant numbers of troops remaining, anyway, per the canon numbers in H:LoT I. 

Would this all have worked?  I don't know, but I think it would have resulted in less devastation than Kerensky's canonical campaign.  Kerensky approached the canon campaign in a very direct, unimaginative manner.  "I'm going to take every territory in the Hegemony until I slowly get to Terra."  Rather than strike the snake's head and let the body wither, Kerensky started at the tail and worked his way up to the head.

Kerensky was evidently an avid player of Risk, and not of chess.
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Takiro

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Re: Crushing Amari's Terra
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2012, 05:25:27 PM »

Actually the SLDF learned a great deal about their enemy during the Hegemony Campaign most importantly the secrets of the SDS. If Kerensky attacks Terra directly and I think Amaris might know it is coming ordering some forces to reinforce his position. If he could transport Caspars from the outer systems he may be able to destroy the SL fleet completely.
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Halvagor

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Re: Crushing Amari's Terra
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2012, 05:45:02 PM »

Except that by striking Terra earlier, say in 2772, when he began Operation CHIEFTAIN, Kerensky has given Amaris five less years to build SDS equipment -- and still has his entire fleet, not the remnant which destroyed dozens or hundreds of SDS ships to learn the lessons.  Yes, casualties will be high, but they'll only have to learn lessons once, because they won't need to assault any other SDSes.

If Amaris does order reinforcements, the SLN is in position to strike as soon as the RWR ships jump in, before they can react to launch fighters or DropShips (that's the point of guarding JumpPoints).  And the RWR reinforcements will most likely arrive piecemeal, based upon their distance from Terra.  Either way the SLN maintains a massive superiority in numbers and training, and can get in that useful first-strike.  Caspar-class ships are just as much eggshells-armed-with-sledgehammers as all other Star League WarShips, and by guarding jump points the SLN can ensure they don't have to maneuver to get within range; they can be at the jump points simply waiting for ships to arrive, only to cold-cock them when they jump in and are still trying to figure out what's around them.  Caspar-class SDS, as the most dangerous of Amaris's ships, would naturally get the priority, as the SLN can expect to mop the floor with the human-crewed RWR ships. 
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Re: Crushing Amari's Terra
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2012, 06:10:42 PM »

I agree.  Terra was the goal; it should have been the primary target once the SLDF had consolidated and taken out the Rim Worlds Repubic (i.e., slackened the troops thirst for blood).  But the story was written so that the SLDF would be bled white and the Star League would subsequently fall.  A massive strike against Terra would have gone against that storyline, and might have allowed for the preservation of at least the Hegemony.

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Ice Hellion

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Re: Crushing Amari's Terra
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2012, 02:56:19 AM »

I know it doesn't make sense from a strategical point of view and there must be a reason for trying to surround (in a 2D way while the Universe is a 3D thing) Amaris.

I can't find one.
Unless he is hoping Amaris will make the mistake to counterstrike...
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Re: Crushing Amari's Terra
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2012, 07:04:36 AM »

Just a thought about the hitting every world on the way.

Could Kerensky have been intentionally beating up his forces?  Kerensky was loyal to his people, that's pretty obvious with the Exodus but could he have been intentionally destroying as much of their equipment as possible.  He was a great strategist so it's said.  Could he have thought

"I can beat Amaris easy, but I don't want any of the Succession Lords seeing us as a threat, I'll give them a warning shot by showing exactly what we can do. (take the Terran Hegemony Worlds) But in the process I'll beat up the SLDF so badly no-one will see us as a threat or try to recruit us."

This way he leaves the Hegemony worlds under his control to rebuild HIS army while the Succession Lords wonder if it's really worth them bother trying to gain his support (a beat up army costs more to fix than it's worth, which is shown as no-one tried to recruit the SLDF until the majority had left).  This buys Kerensky time to try and save the Council or make his Exodus plans.
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Really, as long as there is an unbroken line of people calling themselves "Clan Nova Cat," it doesn't really matter to me if they're still using Iron Wombs or not. They may be dead as a faction, but as a people they still exist. It's not uncommon in the real world, after all.

Gabriel

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Re: Crushing Amari's Terra
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2012, 10:46:03 AM »

Another possibility the sheer shock at the level of treachery scrambled his brains a bit. He also thought the greedy House Lords might have actually stepped in and helped. He thought that especially from Davion or Steiner.
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Re: Crushing Amari's Terra
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2012, 05:19:20 PM »

I consider Kerensky's abilities as a commander to be entirely an informed ability; he never demonstrates, to my mind, any hint of either tactical or strategic ability.  This may simply be a reflection of the lack of such skills among FASA's (or Fanpro's, or CGL's) staff, who wouldn't recognize a great strategy if one hit them over the head.  Since they didn't take the time to sit down and give him a good strategy, we're left scratching our heads at why he's considered such a great leader.

Then again, essentially no one in the BT universe has a head for strategy...

I don't see why Kerensky would care what the Council Lords thought about the SLDF -- and he has every reason to want them to fear it, as that would make them more pliable and likely to support his campaign against Amaris.  Nor is killing millions of his troops in utterly meaningless battles over the other Hegemony worlds a great way to demonstrate his overriding concern for them.  It was, however, a great way to devastate the Hegemony, which certainly worked out well for the Council Lords. 
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