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Author Topic: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind  (Read 5606 times)

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Knightmare

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Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2012, 11:17:20 AM »

Interior worlds aren't that big of an issue and easily explained.

First off, Holy Shroud was never fully fleshed out, but mentions key assassinations, bombings and data purges. All of those could occur on interior worlds. More likely, however was the loss of key infrastructure necessary to produce advanced tech. Just because the factory on New Avalon provided a finished product doesn't mean the computer controlled foundries or the computers themselves were produced on-site. Same goes for some of the advanced compounds necessary to complete production. I'd bet dollars to donuts they weren't all located on some well protected interior planet.

Destruction of the Star League's connected interstellar economies and industrial infrastructure was just as devastating to the tech base as nuked factory sites, fire bombed universities, key assassinations, horrendous shipping losses and purposeful data purges. Taken as a whole the decline is plausible.

I think that's the key. There's no single factor responsible, but a collection of factors that should be accounted for.

By the same rational, replacing those key, yet missing pieces of manufacture allow the Successor States to quickly repair their existing production capabilities for high tech production after the 3030s.

You can argue they weren't the same production power houses of old, (a smaller number of factories will do that) but certainly just as capable.   
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JPArbiter

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Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2012, 12:43:10 PM »

I tend to agree with the opinion that there was almost too much advanced tech "introduced" into the Reunification War era. The Periphery simply didn't have that many Mechs and such. Yeah the Star League was technologically superior but I just don't buy that all that Level 2 was intro'd by then. Don't get me started on warships. ...

introduced, but it was still very much limited production until the golden age era
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Dread Moores

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Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2012, 01:03:33 PM »

Fair points Knightmare. I think that very conjoined infrastructure that you mention is something that may play into the very rough AU idea I have floating around in my head.
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2012, 02:45:34 AM »

The question being are all these factors happening because someone or something made them happen or is it just bad luck (or good luck depending on the way you look at it)?
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lucho

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Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2012, 09:50:21 PM »

Not much to add that hasn't already been mentioned, except... the Periphery. It is canon that the Periphery nations- mainly the Taurians and RimWorlders- were manufacturing advanced tech during Reunification. Not much, true, but after the war, it is also canon that they continued research and production of advanced tech. Mostly in secrecy, yes, but it is canon that some of it was in the open (it is stated that the Hegemony failed to stop all of the work done outside Th borders). Either way, the Periphery had advanced tech, and by 2750 was on an even level with the Inner Sphere. But every reference to Holy Shroud is about the Inner Sphere. So, the writers have a problem here: is published canon wrong, and ComStar actively interfered in Periphery affairs (i.e. contradicting published canon that ComStar had at best a minimal presence in the Periphery), or did the Periphery never lose the advanced tech even if they lack the economic means to manufacture it?
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lrose

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Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2012, 10:29:17 PM »

If you believe the Cyrano entry in TR3050 Upgrade Comstar's Operation Holy Shroud did conduct operations in the Periphery- supposedly Comstar was responsible for the destruction of the Cyrano factory on New Vandenberg.

If on the other hand you chalk this up to the WOB trying to manipulate the TC (they wouldn't do that would they?) then it gets a lot harder to justify the loss of L2 tech in the TC, since even if worlds like New Vandenberg were open to pirate attacks, the Hyades Cluster wasn't raided during the entire SW period so there is no reason why the TC would have lost their knowledge to pirate raids.
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JPArbiter

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Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2012, 09:56:16 AM »

Not much to add that hasn't already been mentioned, except... the Periphery. It is canon that the Periphery nations- mainly the Taurians and RimWorlders- were manufacturing advanced tech during Reunification. Not much, true, but after the war, it is also canon that they continued research and production of advanced tech. Mostly in secrecy, yes, but it is canon that some of it was in the open (it is stated that the Hegemony failed to stop all of the work done outside Th borders). Either way, the Periphery had advanced tech, and by 2750 was on an even level with the Inner Sphere. But every reference to Holy Shroud is about the Inner Sphere. So, the writers have a problem here: is published canon wrong, and ComStar actively interfered in Periphery affairs (i.e. contradicting published canon that ComStar had at best a minimal presence in the Periphery), or did the Periphery never lose the advanced tech even if they lack the economic means to manufacture it?

this question brings up four great big misconceptions about the Periphery and it's relation to the Inner sphere

1) The Periphery is still part of the Inner Sphere.  so any questions related to holy shroud and Comstars influence in the Inner Sphere extends to the Periphery as well

2) The Periphery was not spared from the Succession Wars- true thier actions were minor, at at various points in history Periphery nations did get involved, usually to try and steal shit from the houses

3) The Star League did NOT have the same reverence for preserving either technology or infrastructure.  after all they could always rebuild when the war was over, unlike the succession wars.

4) The Amaris Coup started with a massive recreation of the Reunifacation Wars, that dropped the SLDF's capabilities by a third.  such actions would have seriously depleted the Peripheries industrial and military capabilities, but when you are fighting for freedom...

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Knightmare

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Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2012, 11:49:43 AM »

4) The Amaris Coup started with a massive recreation of the Reunifacation Wars, that dropped the SLDF's capabilities by a third.  such actions would have seriously depleted the Peripheries industrial and military capabilities, but when you are fighting for freedom...

Post-revolution reconstruction expectations probably didn't include the fall of the Star League or the Succession Wars. It's kind of a kick in the pants for the poor Taurians.

Oh well.
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lrose

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Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2012, 01:11:22 PM »

Post-revolution reconstruction expectations probably didn't include the fall of the Star League or the Succession Wars. It's kind of a kick in the pants for the poor Taurians.

Oh well.

And yet every SB, including Era Report 2750 say that the TC was best prepared for the Succession Wars. (whatever exactly that means- it's not fully spelled out.)  I would take it to mean that during the Coup and years before the 1st SW, the TC managed to rebuild vital industries (those building water & fusion plants) and stockpile much needed supplies. 
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2012, 01:33:43 PM »

And yet every SB, including Era Report 2750 say that the TC was best prepared for the Succession Wars. (whatever exactly that means- it's not fully spelled out.)  I would take it to mean that during the Coup and years before the 1st SW, the TC managed to rebuild vital industries (those building water & fusion plants) and stockpile much needed supplies.

And/or that they understood that they shouldn't fight against the Successor States as long as they didn't threaten the Taurian Concordat.
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Dread Moores

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Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2012, 02:12:29 PM »

There's also always the old standby FASA fluff reasoning for the Periphery's fall. "They lost the ability to manufacture the key Star League tech water filters that are so important."

I don't note it as particularly solid, but it's worth pointing out. :)
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Knightmare

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Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2012, 05:18:26 PM »

Post-revolution reconstruction expectations probably didn't include the fall of the Star League or the Succession Wars. It's kind of a kick in the pants for the poor Taurians.

Oh well.

And yet every SB, including Era Report 2750 say that the TC was best prepared for the Succession Wars. (whatever exactly that means- it's not fully spelled out.)  I would take it to mean that during the Coup and years before the 1st SW, the TC managed to rebuild vital industries (those building water & fusion plants) and stockpile much needed supplies.


"Best prepared" sounds like a well equipped boy scout roaming Yellowstone. They may be ready to weather a rough winter, but that doesn't mean it was survived with GPS and high-tech gear.

I think you're probably right. The Concordat was probably able to rebuild much of the infrastructure lost during the Coup with local equivalents (and/or also stockpiling parts). Using local replacements would place them in a better situation than their Inner Sphere counterparts, because of the tech disadvantage...

Interesting thought. Thanks Mad. 
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Dragon Cat

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Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2012, 05:53:07 PM »

You've also got all those systems in the Cluster that is difficult to navigate the Taurians probably had the best defended capital until someone dropped a big rock on it
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Really, as long as there is an unbroken line of people calling themselves "Clan Nova Cat," it doesn't really matter to me if they're still using Iron Wombs or not. They may be dead as a faction, but as a people they still exist. It's not uncommon in the real world, after all.

masterarminas

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Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2012, 06:12:01 PM »

You've also got all those systems in the Cluster that is difficult to navigate the Taurians probably had the best defended capital until someone dropped a big rock on it

Don't get me started on that Dragon Cat.  The Taurians, whom the Powers That Be have consistently and mind-bogglingly have labelled as paranoid-obessive to the point of psychosis, the people who have an entire arm of their armed forces devoted to Asteroid Service, somehow don't notice when people with no business in their system begin playing around with asteroids and rocket-thrusters?  What?  What?

Now, either the Taurians are stubborn, paranoid, SOBs obessed with House Davion, who are willing to go to extreme lengths to protect their worlds (human wave attacks, civilians with bombs, WMDs, etc.) with a 5,000-man strong elite-rated Special Asteroid Space Force or . . . they're not.  In the latter case, yes, the rocks fall everyone in Samantha City dies thing can happen.  But in the first case?  First rock that starts to move in a way that orbital mechanics doesn't allow for (they have had SEVEN HUNDRED YEARS to chart any and all errant rocks in their HOME system, after all), and a horde of DropShips, aerospace fighter carriers, and small craft would be swarming over that 'troid before it move so much as a million kilometers.

Yeah, yeah, yeah; I've heard people suggest that there were 'stealth' sytems on the asteroids that prevented them from being picked up on sensors.  But that does jack for telescopes, which are the primary means of watching your own local space for errant rocks from the heavens.

And then they blame it on the Davions with no explanation of how the Fed Suns could have gotten a team into place and do this.  Ignoring the WOBbies (in SPAAAAAAACE) who just so happen to have this restored WarShip named Vengeance fully stocked with nuclear missiles for you to take your revenge.

Don't get me started on how much the current regime has screwed with my Taurians.

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Dragon Cat

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Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2012, 06:36:18 PM »

I 110% agree with you I thought it was one of the funnies/worst explanations for an event in the Jihad.

If it was a massive ship that had appeared and flung rocks at the planet (we know the Blakists have/had one) I could have bought it but why oh why did they not pick up and engage the asteroid?  Why did the famed suicidal nuke toting defenders not get there first?

We they all on holiday?

The Vengeance was the perfect tool for the Taurians it actually fit them really really well considering they don't really mind using nukes.  But I never understood why they didn't question the Blakists just handing over this ship when they were engaged on so many other fronts.

Yes Sharplen was dead but they should have been rejoicing at getting rid of that idiot and tried to start licking their wounds instead of starting a war with the Federated Suns which let's be honest were always going to finish off the the Jihad and turn around and give the Taurians a kicking.

It was a short cut to start a war pure and simple.  It kept the Taurians and Suns Periphery busy and let TPTB kill some more WarShips and nuke some more worlds.

Personally I would have more believed either big killer ship appearing and hitting them with rocks or a suitcase nuke going off in the middle of Samantha - Blakist helping the Taurains with the analysis and the nuke clearly coming from the Suns (sure they Blakists could have stolen one) as reasons to start a war
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My stuff, and my AU timeline follow link and enjoy

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Really, as long as there is an unbroken line of people calling themselves "Clan Nova Cat," it doesn't really matter to me if they're still using Iron Wombs or not. They may be dead as a faction, but as a people they still exist. It's not uncommon in the real world, after all.
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