OBT Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to OurBattleTech.com - A BattleTech Fan Site

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5   Go Down

Author Topic: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind  (Read 5609 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Knightmare

  • Terran Supremacist
  • Network Gnome
  • General
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,459
  • Taking out the Sphere's trash since 3026
    • Our BattleTech
Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2012, 09:20:15 PM »

Also remember that space is big, really, really big, and that using old SLDF charts and jumping in well outside the systems normally traveled areas, you could lob in a rock from way out.

That's right. Space is HUGE. It's super easy to get in, get out, hide, etc. The great thing about gravity wells and computers is that both do the heavy lifting when it comes to setting a hunk of rock on a collision course. Fire and forget baby.

The story still works. You only have to jump outside of the common safe proximity points - common being those "typical" points with safe and decent transit times to and from a planet - and set your asteroid on an elliptical course towards the target planet. You could use a system's gravity well, but it's a slow and risky proposition. Risky because gravity wells are notorious for sucking down loose debris. Therefore they would likely be well observed. Not the best option when sending a secret, large, slow moving body towards a capital world. Even the addition of a fusion engine would only shorten the travel time, but not enough to reduce the risk of detection given the path.

The best option would be to "fire" your asteroid along the horizontal plane of a system. You wouldn't get any help from the system's star, but outside of the well's cones you'd have have more "space" to work with and less risk of detection. Either way, it's a long, long trip, even with engine assistance. The good news, is that there's no reduction in speed. No flipping end over end to reduce your velocity. An asteroid can be fired at ridiculous velocities.

Honestly, getting the asteroid into the target system isn't an issue. The issue is ultimately detection and lead time before impact.

A fast moving, non-reflective, non-transmitting object, even with a lot of mass would be hard to track unless it was super close to orbit. Radar isn't much help unless it's close to near-earth orbit. At which point you're already SOL. What you're really talking about is visual detection. And no offense, but there's no friggin way Taurus is tracking 100% of their near orbit, or beyond. Even if they were, visual detection is short-ranged. Again, by the time you saw the asteroid you're already SOL. A neutrino detector is absolutely worthless in a system with heavy traffic, and again, would require a general line-of-sight to be useful - meaning, you'd have to know where to point the bloody thing. If the strike is timed to hit during any type of celestial event, tracking becomes even more difficult. So if the Cluster is known for any type of common eclipses, flares or other events, they could be used for additional cover. IF the working hypothesis that the Blakists added some stealth tech to the Asteroid you can start multiplying the difficulty rating even more - though any type of electronic transmissions, outside of something hyper-local, say around the fusion engines, would be detrimental to the asteroid's innate strengths.


Remember that the size of the asteroid, if composed of dense materials, doesn't have to be a mile long to detonate like a nuclear weapon.     

Logged
Quote from: Dragon Cat
WORD (of Blake) is good for two things. 1. Leaving inappropriate notes on other people's work. 2. Adding fake words (of Blake) to the dictionary.

masterarminas

  • General
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,515
Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2012, 09:23:50 PM »

Well, DM, there are cleared areas into which ships can jump safely.  But those particular points are all defended.  Whether by stations, aerospace fighter bases, a facility for armed small craft on a nearby asteroid, or DropShips.  And the SASF hasn't changed since Periphery 1st; its been listed in every product since then, meaning it got rebuilt sometime before 3025.  Outside of Terra, Taurus is the single hardest nut to crack in BattleTech.  And yet once the negotiation party of the Uruk-Hai gets blown away by the defenses, the rest of it manages to get through without a scratch.  And despite all of these defenses, and sensors, and telescopes, and SASF someone gets insystem and then sends asteroids with fusion engines attached to bombard the capital.  And no one ever say them coming.  What about the heat plumes?  The visual evidence produced by the drive flares?

It makes no sense given what we know is canon about the Hyades and the Taurian defenses there.  But the powers that be weren't concerned about consistency:  Herb himself said (about the Jihad) we set out to break every faction.  According to him, it wouldn't have been fun to leave the Taurians alone; they needed something to shake them up.

Master Arminas
Logged

masterarminas

  • General
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,515
Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2012, 09:30:12 PM »

Knightmare, I agree.  It would take six months to a year to get an asteroid from as far away as Jupiter to Earth, unless you put a WarShip's transit drives on it!  (And in that case, their sensor nets should have detected it!)  That's a long time for someone to notice a rock moving faster than it has any right to be--or to just see the visual flare of that drive plume pushing.  Odds are, with as much loose debris around Taurus as there is (in canon) their sensor nets are first class.  To avoid exactly what happened.

Master Arminas
Logged

Dread Moores

  • Overste
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 740
Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2012, 09:32:47 PM »

Well, DM, there are cleared areas into which ships can jump safely.  But those particular points are all defended.

That has to slow down trade traffic. All the required scanning, very possibly boarding, and just dealing with the multiple, redundant layers of security.

As for the rest, I think our opinions will differ on that. Drive plumes have been noted as notoriously hard to detect in BT (realistic or not), and I find the idea of Taurus being the single hardest nut to crack outside of Terra to be something that breaks the setting badly. Note, I'd say that for any other system that puts up something in the modern era that could give an SDS a run for its money. That's just personal opinion, and you're welcome to different thoughts. I've just never accepted that the Taurian defenses are actually what they're written as. :)
Logged
The first one to use the term Dork Age loses.

Knightmare

  • Terran Supremacist
  • Network Gnome
  • General
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,459
  • Taking out the Sphere's trash since 3026
    • Our BattleTech
Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2012, 09:37:16 PM »

And despite all of these defenses, and sensors, and telescopes, and SASF someone gets insystem and then sends asteroids with fusion engines attached to bombard the capital.  And no one ever say them coming.  What about the heat plumes?  The visual evidence produced by the drive flares?

Technically MA, outside of the gravity well along the horizontal plane - outside of the Oort Cloud - is outside of a system. It's so vast, so many AUs away from anything habitable that JumpShips can jump in and out at their heart's content and no one would be the wiser.

Going there is an unattractive option for a couple of reasons.

1. It's so far away from the system's star that jump drives can only charge via their fusion engine, and therefore fuel reserves.
2. It's so far away from the system's habitable planets that travel times are absurd.
3. There's nothing there.

As for drive plume, the asteroid only needs to reach its target velocity - whatever that is. Once that velocity is reached the drive can shut down. Considering the distance between the asteroid's likely launch point and the inner system, the drive system could have been off days before the rock hit Taurus or entered an area where the risk of detection would offset the advantages of increasing its velocity any further. I also doubt the asteroid's engines were heavily insulated, so heat wouldn't be much of an issue either. 

I'm saying it's the greatest way to mess up Taurus (though there's a little poetic justice in having one of the system's chief strengths used against them), I'm just saying it's a completely plausible way to mess up Taurus.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 09:43:00 PM by Knightmare »
Logged
Quote from: Dragon Cat
WORD (of Blake) is good for two things. 1. Leaving inappropriate notes on other people's work. 2. Adding fake words (of Blake) to the dictionary.

masterarminas

  • General
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,515
Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2012, 09:49:19 PM »

And despite all of these defenses, and sensors, and telescopes, and SASF someone gets insystem and then sends asteroids with fusion engines attached to bombard the capital.  And no one ever say them coming.  What about the heat plumes?  The visual evidence produced by the drive flares?

Technically MA, outside of the gravity well along the horizontal plane - outside of the Oort Cloud - is outside of a system. It's so vast, so many AUs away from anything habitable that JumpShips can jump in and out at their heart's content and no one would be the wiser.

Going there is an unattractive option for a couple of reasons.

3. There's nothing there.

True, except for certain clusters like the Hyades (and the Badlands, and the Pleiades).  The nebula is outside the system limit.  That cloud of gas and dust and debris fills up the interstellar space between systems; not very thickly to be sure, but it is there.  Along with random bits of debris.  A system's star generates a solar wind that pretty much keeps such gasses outside of the system, but beyond a certain point, they don't.  That would increases the danger of jumping to a point outside the sytem.   Right?

MA
Logged

Dragon Cat

  • KU Player
  • General
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,271
  • Not Dead Until I Say So
Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2012, 10:01:01 PM »

not sure if that would be enough to punch through JumpShip armour - or at least a very low chance

it would however obliterate a jump-sail (not that one should be deployed out there anyway) or likely any canopies like fights - would probably wreck their engines too with debris
Logged
My stuff, and my AU timeline follow link and enjoy

http://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/dragon-cat-collection/

The original CBT thread
Dragon Cat on CBT


Really, as long as there is an unbroken line of people calling themselves "Clan Nova Cat," it doesn't really matter to me if they're still using Iron Wombs or not. They may be dead as a faction, but as a people they still exist. It's not uncommon in the real world, after all.

Knightmare

  • Terran Supremacist
  • Network Gnome
  • General
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,459
  • Taking out the Sphere's trash since 3026
    • Our BattleTech
Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2012, 08:17:41 AM »

True, except for certain clusters like the Hyades (and the Badlands, and the Pleiades).  The nebula is outside the system limit.  That cloud of gas and dust and debris fills up the interstellar space between systems; not very thickly to be sure, but it is there.  Along with random bits of debris.  A system's star generates a solar wind that pretty much keeps such gasses outside of the system, but beyond a certain point, they don't.  That would increases the danger of jumping to a point outside the system.   Right?

The important bits are in bold.

While Cray would be the best guy to answer this, if I remember my classes right, then points of space beyond the hard reach of a system's star are still so vast that even in a cluster or nebula there are huge patches (like system-sized patches) where there is literally nothing present. Nebula aren't like rings around a planet, where they hug a celestial body (in this case a star system) using velocity to counter gravitational pull. If I remember correctly, they're discharge emanating (for the most part) away from a system's star - having left the confine's of a local star's catch. So in a nebula with a number of stars, the interstellar "dust" is more or less sandwiched between and around them. Visually the swirl looks like it hugs the star, and astronomically speaking it does, but we're still talking millions of miles outside of a system's boundary. 

The point is, even a nebula has vast distances where there is literally nothing there. By nothing I mean, nothing of note: major celestial body, etc. Basically anything that would cause gravitational distortions large enough to inhibit a JumpShip.

There are still all the downsides to jumping into one of these null spaces (distance, recharge issues, distance, etc.), enhanced even more by the nebula's other stars, etc., but certainly doable and not over the top by BattleTech's space-faring technology.

That's the point I think. An asteroid is not over the top when you consider Taurus's system defenses and who sent it.

Dropping well beyond the reach of everything and everyone and setting an asteroid on a collision course is a "sane" move considering the alternative of trying to bully your way onto the surface. If the object lesson is to punish the Concordat and your organization has high-tech, but limited manpower, this was the right way to go. With BattleTech sensors being what they are, and the impossibility of placing an entire night's sky under constant asteroid surveillance (with enough lead to make a difference), an asteroid pummeling stood a very high chance of success.
 

 
   

« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 08:20:09 AM by Knightmare »
Logged
Quote from: Dragon Cat
WORD (of Blake) is good for two things. 1. Leaving inappropriate notes on other people's work. 2. Adding fake words (of Blake) to the dictionary.

fitzgerald

  • Kavallerist
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 104
Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2012, 06:01:31 AM »

It makes no sense given what we know is canon about the Hyades and the Taurian defenses there.  But the powers that be weren't concerned about consistency:  Herb himself said (about the Jihad) we set out to break every faction.  According to him, it wouldn't have been fun to leave the Taurians alone; they needed something to shake them up.

Master Arminas

Then the TPTB choose an idiotic method of shaking up the Taurians with the asteroid strike.

A civil war between the Farlookers and Inheritors would have made sense.   Would have been built on previous canon material dating back from the 1st Periphery Handbook.   

A long simmering conflict within Taurian civil society has erupted in violence within the the Jihad, as brother turns on  brother, and incidentally a FedSun Merc Regiment or two gets side swiped.

The Taurian's should have been the "Lone Mech/Lance" makes a difference on a far and distant colony world, months from backup and any help at all.  The Spaghetti Western were it's you in a beat up old Thud against a lance of wicked pirates.

Ciao
Logged

lrose

  • General
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,664
Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2012, 07:22:07 AM »

Rather then a Far Lookers-Inheritors civil war, there should have been a Taurian Civil War between Shraplen's supporters who wanted to ally with the CC and join the new SL and those who said- "Join the Star League- my ancestors died fighting those bastards during the War of Star League Aggression- their ain't no way we're joining them now"

I mean really- the TC can't ever let go of a grudge, except apparently in this case because it would hurt the TC more to join the new SL and become a Capellan lap dog.  If I have any complaint about the way TPTB have handled the TC it is that the TC is pig headed and stubborn only when it hurts the Concordat, if it would help the TC (like telling Sun Tzu to shove his offer of joining the SL up his ass) then suddenly they start acting out of character and go along with out even complaining. 
Logged

Knightmare

  • Terran Supremacist
  • Network Gnome
  • General
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,459
  • Taking out the Sphere's trash since 3026
    • Our BattleTech
Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2012, 07:41:52 AM »

Hmm...a Civil War between Shraplen's Pro-Star League/Capellan faction and a Anti-Star League faction. Interesting. Samantha's destruction could have been authorized after an Anti-League victory for "assisting" in the dissolution of the Second Star League.

Neat idea.
Logged
Quote from: Dragon Cat
WORD (of Blake) is good for two things. 1. Leaving inappropriate notes on other people's work. 2. Adding fake words (of Blake) to the dictionary.

lrose

  • General
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,664
Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2012, 11:11:28 AM »

I at one point started working on an AU based on this- basically instead of Brenda Calderon refusing to stand up to Shraplen, she becomes the focus of the opposition- basically the bulk of the TDF supports her as regent for Erik Calderon/next protector if Erik isn't Jeffrey's son.  A small but fanatical group - the Pleiades Hussars, Pleiades Lancers and a few others oppose her and support Shraplen.  The basis for the AU was from Periphery 2e, where it says a lot of the TDF was tired of Thomas' insanity towards the end of his reign and were pleased with Jeffrey's new direction for the TDF/TC- I figure these same officers would see Shraplen doing the same things as Thomas and not want to repeat history. 

I've really been meaning to get back to this at some point...maybe soon.
Logged

Halvagor

  • Fanjunkare
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 207
Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2012, 02:59:01 PM »

Irose, I think that's a fine idea; it would explain turmoil in the TC much better than the Jihad did.  I hope you get back to expanding on that idea.
Logged
"...but if evil men were not now and then slain it would not be a good world for weaponless dreamers."  From Kim, by Rudyard Kipling, 1901

Dragon Cat

  • KU Player
  • General
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,271
  • Not Dead Until I Say So
Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2012, 03:36:27 PM »

Irose, I think that's a fine idea; it would explain turmoil in the TC much better than the Jihad did.  I hope you get back to expanding on that idea.

Ditto sounds nice
Logged
My stuff, and my AU timeline follow link and enjoy

http://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/dragon-cat-collection/

The original CBT thread
Dragon Cat on CBT


Really, as long as there is an unbroken line of people calling themselves "Clan Nova Cat," it doesn't really matter to me if they're still using Iron Wombs or not. They may be dead as a faction, but as a people they still exist. It's not uncommon in the real world, after all.

Rainbow 6

  • KU Player
  • General
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,994
Re: Era Report 2750 and H: Reunification War are blowing my mind
« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2012, 04:41:23 PM »

Irose, I think that's a fine idea; it would explain turmoil in the TC much better than the Jihad did.  I hope you get back to expanding on that idea.

Ditto sounds nice

Same here, i for one look forward to seeing it.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5   Go Up