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Author Topic: How did Clan Ice Hellion survive?  (Read 1219 times)

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masterarminas

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How did Clan Ice Hellion survive?
« on: June 13, 2014, 02:32:35 PM »

How did Clan Ice Hellion survive?  Looking at Field Manual:  Crusader Clans, the Hellion Touman is extremely weak.  Sure, on paper, the Hellions field 22 Clusters . . . but only ONE Cluster in their entire Touman is at a full TO&E strength of 5 Trinary. 

Four have a strength of four Trinary; three have just two Trinary; heck, one Cluster (176th Attack) can field just a SINGLE Trinary!

The other thirteen Clusters have three Trinary apiece!

Sixty-seven Trinary formations . . . ladies and gentlemen, that is just over a total strength of 13 (THIRTEEN) Clusters!  If divided up along traditional lines, that is ~40 Trinary of 'Mechs (approx. 600 total), and ~13 each of Elementals (approx. 975 total) and Aerospace Fighters (approx. 390 total) . . . exclusive of ASF and Elementals assigned to the Hellion Naval Reserve.

That is absolutely pitiful compared to every other Clan out there.  They didn't have any Allies of note.  Their pack tactics pissed off a good many Warriors in other Clans.  They whined almost as much as the Mongeese did.  So why didn't some other Clan (Jaguars or Falcons or Adders or Wolves or someone) Absorb their assets.
 
Even Clan Cloud Cobra (the second smallest Clan with the same 22 Clusters, on paper, as the Hellions) can field the equal of 95 Trinary within its Touman (141% the strength of CIH).  Of course, they lack sizeable ground forces, but make up for it with their impressive ASF assets.

Clan Goliath Scorpion (with 24 Clusters the third weakest on paper) has 118 Trinary formations . . . almost twice what the Hellions field!  176% of their strength . . . with a lot more heavier 'Mechs.  The bloody canon Scorpions should have been able to Absorb the Hellions in the immediate post-Refusal War period.

The numbers just get embarassing if you start looking at larger Clans. 

So how the frack did the Hellions manage to survive?

Especially if we look at Clan Ice Hellion holdings post the Great Refusal:

Quote from: from Sarna.net
Atreus (35 percent)
 Babylon (23 percent)
 Barcella (38 percent)
 Foster (30 percent)
 Hector (100 percent)
 Hoard (40 percent)
 Huntress (8 percent)
 Londerholm (68 percent)
 Marshall (9 percent)
 New Kent (6 percent)
 Tathis (30 percent)
 Capital: Hector


Population (Clan Space): 101,309,000 (3060)
 Population growth rate: 3.1 percent (82/51)
 Self-Sufficiency Index: 91 percent

Eleven enclaves . . . Eleven!  And that population of 101,309,000 would allow for some 10,000 Warriors!  They actually have (according to their Touman, not including Warriors assigned to the Naval Reserve) less than TWO THOUSAND.

MA
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 02:44:09 PM by masterarminas »
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Blacknova

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Re: How did Clan Ice Hellion survive?
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2014, 04:04:18 PM »

Dont forget to count the six Flurry Clusters. Perhaps the Crusaders left them alone for their vote, which also protected them from the Wardens. Before 3005, they may have had more strength and Hellions fury would not have helpedd. So after 3000 they almost become unspoken wards of the Crusaders, though that does not account for later developments.
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Re: How did Clan Ice Hellion survive?
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2014, 04:45:56 PM »

A big part of it is that nobody thought the Hellions were worth absorbing, nor annihilating.
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Re: How did Clan Ice Hellion survive?
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2014, 04:57:55 PM »

Good points.

I will say this.

1. FM Crusader Clans occurs after the Hellion's Fury so that campaign could have seen a greater number of assets prior to these assaults.

2. Fierce lightning attacks which are largely unsuspected are tough to fend off.

3. Who says what the Hellion's took was valuable? Maybe the other Clans realized the defensive investment was unimportant for what they wanted. Also a lot of what you are sighting as their assets is post Jaguar Annihilation and the Nova Cat Abjuration. Barcella, Hoard, Londerholm, and Huntress were not likely theirs before that.

Why didn't any Home Clan attack the Invaders as they became more and more entangled with the InnerSphere? Seriously I love Clan Wolf but what forces did they have to protect their homeworld enclaves? Perhaps a truce existed during Operation Revival? There isn't much honor in attacking a distracted enemy. Or perhaps the ilKhan forbade such Trails??
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masterarminas

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Re: How did Clan Ice Hellion survive?
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2014, 06:52:19 PM »

The Hellion's Fury campaign was waged by Khan Stephen Tyler from sometime after the Hellion's lost their bid to be included in the Invasion and ended sometime prior to the Battle of Tukayyid in 3052, when Tyler was killed by a 'bandit attack' on Londerholm (where the Hellions had captured a Smoke Jaguar enclave!).  saKhan Danielle Lienet was critically wounded in the same engagement, which allowed Asa Taney to become Khan.

After that point, we have no more information on any battles that the Hellions fought until after the Refusal War (and the Harvest Trials) in 3057.  We know that the Hellions lost at least 1 Binary in the Harvest Trials (to Clan Jade Falcon) and (possibly??) as much as an entire Cluster to Clan Wolf . . . led by Taney's saKhan Welland Cage.  Canon indicates that the Wolves gained Cage, but text in FM:CC (page 78) seems to indicate that Ward was getting his butt kicked and renounced his claim on Cage's unit, focusing instead on the Binary of Freeborns Taney had foisted on Cage.  Which he won . . . barely.  We also have references to Cage dying when he and Raina Montose challenged his leadership in 3065, so who knows what is really going on here!

We also have a reference in FM:CC to the wealth that the Hellion's Fury campaign netted for CIH (FM:CC page 77, 'Calm After The Storm').  Taney used that wealth to build a coalition among the Home Clans to either recall the Invading Clans or force them to accept reinforcements from the Home Clans.  Unfortunately, he waited until after the Refusal War and was thwarted when ALL of the Invaders joined together to resist him and Khan Ward's call for the Harvest Trials. 

Which was pretty dumb on the part of the writers . . . why did the ELEVEN Home Clans (including Diamond Shark, who possessed just one world in the Periphery) let SIX Invading Clans (two very nearly mortally wounded from the Refusal War) intimidate them into agreeing? 

That makes absolutely NO sense to me.

Next spurt of combat is centered on the Great Refusal in 3060, where Khan Asa Taney got his butt kicked by the Nova Cats of the SLDF.  After which, the Hellions had a temper tantrum which resulted in them taking former Bear, Cat, and Jaguar enclaves on Atreus, Barcella, Hoard, Huntress, and Londerholm.

Did the Hellions really lose almost 50% of their Touman in the Trials of Possessions for those worlds?  After all, more than two years had passed since the end of the Harvest Trials . . . enough time to restore most (if not all) of the Hellion losses up to that point.

And if they did suffer those calamitous losses in the wake of the Great Refusal, didn't that present the remaining Home (and some Invading) Clans with the perfect opportunity to seize the eleven enclaves (and their wealth) that the Hellions now held?

If they did take those casualties, why did Asa Taney remain in power until 3065?

And if the numbers in FM:CC (and FM:U) reflect the depleted Touman of Clan Ice Hellion, how many Clusters did the Hellions field prior to HELLION'S FURY?

MA
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 06:55:35 PM by masterarminas »
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masterarminas

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Re: How did Clan Ice Hellion survive?
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2014, 06:55:03 PM »

Dont forget to count the six Flurry Clusters. Perhaps the Crusaders left them alone for their vote, which also protected them from the Wardens. Before 3005, they may have had more strength and Hellions fury would not have helpedd. So after 3000 they almost become unspoken wards of the Crusaders, though that does not account for later developments.

Six Flurry Clusters as of FM:U, Blacknova.  And don't forget, they were predominately comprised of fast hover tanks and VTOLs with only around 5% of each Cluster consisting of BattleMechs.  For a traditional 15-star Cluster, that is (at best) ONE Star of 'Mechs in the entire Cluster . . . the rest is hover tanks and VTOLs.

MA
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Re: How did Clan Ice Hellion survive?
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2014, 08:57:48 PM »

and infantry, but they are armed forces still and should be counted in some form.
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Re: How did Clan Ice Hellion survive?
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2014, 09:12:45 PM »

Why did the Coyotes vote for the invasion? They are staunch Wardens. While the appearance of the Outbound Light did have an unnerving affect on the entire Clan society and the Yotes are ardent traditionalists I can't believe both Khans would vote to invade. But they did and there is no discussion of it.

For the Ice Hellions, the Clan combat system does aid them in holding onto their gains. Limited warfare and the whole Clan mind set of one to one engagement does prevent numbers from being used against them. Also as you note MA the large number of Home Clans each with their own agenda may further help the Hellions. Feuding seldom makes sense.

I hated the whole concept of the Harvest Trails. They made no sense to me.
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Re: How did Clan Ice Hellion survive?
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2014, 06:15:22 AM »

I think there is not much of an explanation. I may have 1 or 2 points though: The holdings of the Clan are quite much for so little units to show off. It is explained in the books that the Hellions suffer a lot of attrition due to their aggression but possibly more to their light forces.

However, it is not impossible to say that their factories and other wealth would help replacing their losses at record speed (not taking into account their sibkos, though :/)

If that is true and reinforcements come in every month in record numbers, then they could go out on yet another unfortunate fight, lose half of their machines, and then get new ones immediately.

How that makes sense while probably losing quite some warriors, I have no clue.


Another point is that they are seen as an annoyance but they dont have many real blood feuds as other Clans. Sure they pissed off many in the Hellion's Fury, but other than that, I have not much. Aggression is usually seen as a good sign for a warrior, right? :P

But all in all, it does not make much sense.

Could be that the Cluster numbers were done right before new reinforcements bolstered many of them, but FM:Updates doesnt show much of it in that regard.

I say the writers messed up. Making (or at least trying damn hard) them a laughing stock but keeping them around with those numbers sure does not help. I dont believe that they only held worthless stuff, that would go against much the Clan economy stands for. If you have 100 million people, that is worth quite a bit.

*shrugs*

Nice topic, though.
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drakensis

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Re: How did Clan Ice Hellion survive?
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2014, 04:52:17 AM »

Looking at the Ice Hellion numbers the prospect of someone seeking to absorb the Ice Hellions is the obvious next thought.

On reflection, Clan Fire Mandrill seem plenty capable of doing so. Just on cluster numbers they have a 3/2 advantage and only one of the six Ice Hellion Galaxy can compare in numbers to any one of the seven Kindraa. The only serious imbalance the other way is warships: Clan Fire Mandrill has only 7 warships to the Ice Hellions' 13.  On the other hand, the Ice Hellions seem to have used their warships in the Hellions' Fury campaign so several of their ships may be damaged.

Why would the Fire Mandrills do this? Well for one thing the tight kindraa loyalty suggests they're not likely to lose many warriors to the Harvest Trials. Secondly the Crusader bloc vote doesn't necessarily count for as much as it used to: the Invasion's happened afterall - the Crusaders as a whole won that, so counting every vote isn't as critical. And if enough Isorla can be amassed then one of the Kindraa might even break away and form a new Clan.

Of course, if this goes wrong then one or more Kindraa's could get gutted...


Babylon
Attackers: Kindraa Command Cluster (V/R), 21st Vanguard Battle Cluster (V/R) {Kindraa Kline} [135 Points]
Defenders: 43rd Hector Cavaliers (G/Q), 2nd Assault Cavaliers (V/R) [90 Points]

Staging from the Fire Mandrill's Dagda holdings Kindra Kline bid for possession of the two Ice Hellion Clusters. With the 43rd Cavaliers only partially present on Babylon due to several stars being assigned to escort Hellion merchant shipping, the garrison cluster crumbled quickly under pressure from the 21st Vanguard Battle Cluster. Although the Assault Cavaliers did better, they were still under-strength from losses against Clan Star Adder in the Hellion's Fury campaign. Kindraa Kline took enough battlefield salvage and supplies from the Cluster's bases to add another Cluster to their forces and then departed, leaving the Ice Hellion's Babylon holdings defenseless against their neighbours.


Foster
Attackers: 1st Battle Payne (E/R) {Kindraa Payne} [60 Points]
Defenders: 33rd Striker Irregulars (R/F) [30 Points]

The only Ice Hellion force on Foster was their 33rd Striker Irregulars - a unit being rebuilt under the leadership of a Ghost Bear warrior taken as isorla as a heavy-assault unit. With only two trinaries due to difficulties for the Hellions in acquiring such 'Mechs, the Cluster was rather shocked to find themselves confronted by the four trinaries of the 1st Battle Payne. Salvage from the battle let Star Colonel LaDon Jewel add a fifth trinary - led by former Ghost Bear Damon Hawkins - to his roster and the cluster remains in control of the former Ice Hellion enclave although Clan Coyote are rumoured to be interested in expanding their own holdings on the world.


Atreus
Attackers: 1st Battle Cluster (E/R), 16th Assault Cluster (V/R) {Kindraa Faraday-Tanaga} [150 Points]
Defenders: 44th Hector Cavaliers (G/Q), 200th Attack Cluster (E/R) [105 Points]

Like Foster, both Clan Fire Mandrill and Clan Ice Hellion had enclaves on Atreus so no shipping was required for Kindraa Faraday-Tanaga to launch their Trial of Possession for the Ice Hellion's territory. Loremaster Drew Tanaga was killed when saKhan Sellen Cage managed to ambush the 1st Battle Cluster with the 200th Attack Cluster and two stars of the 44th Hector Cavaliers. Although outnumbered, the Lithe Kill keshik managed to force Star Colonel Zachary Bush to pull his elite cluster back to regroup. Unfortunately for the saKhan her pursuit led her depleted forces headlong into the 16th Assault Cluster who drove them back in turn. A handful of warriors remained alongside Sellen Cage to request - and be granted - hegira, which leaves the Fire Mandrills in exclusive control of Atreus for now.


Marshall
Attackers: 61st Firestorm Cluster (E/F), 202nd Firebrand Cluster (R/F) {Kindraa Mattila-Carrol} [110 Points]
Defenders: 3rd Hector Cavaliers (R/R), 7th Hector Cavaliers (R/Q) [75 Points]

The third of the worlds shared by the Ice Hellions and Fire Mandrills, Marshall is also home to substantial enclaves from other clans and the site of frequent trials. There wasn't much chance of surprise under the circumstances but the two understrength Ice Hellion Clusters were sufficiently absorbed in their internal problems they somehow didn't notice the arrival of the Mattila-Carrol until batchall was called for. The 61st Firestorm Cluster shattered the 7th Hector Cavaliers almost without trying, denying the elderly and already injured Galaxy Commander Curtis no time to rally his command cluster. The 202nd Firebrand Cluster were denied the chance to fight at all but can take some satisfaction in being assigned a sixth binary made up of salvage and bondsmen from the 7th Hector Cavaliers. The  survivors of the 3rd Hector Cavaliers are believed to be on their way to Mattila-Carrol's other second-line cluster, stationed on Shadow.


Tathis
Attackers: 11th Battle Force (R/F), 32nd Vanguard Battle Cluster (R/R), CFMS Jungle Heat {Kindraa Mick-Kreese} [110 Points]
Defenders: 150th Attack Cluster (G/Q), 45th Hector Cavaliers (G/R), CIHS Impaler [90 Points]

For the first time in the campaign, the Fire Mandrills had to make a forced landing with their Lola III destroyer Jungle Heat duelling its class mate Impaler to cover the landing. Drawing on aerospace assets from both assigned clusters, Kindraa Mick-Kreese gained its third warship although both destroyers will need extensive and expensive repairs. With half of Zeta Galaxy already destroyed the 150th Attack Cluster was eager to see action for once and put up a respectable fight, as did the freeborn recruits of the 45th Cavaliers. Both units were taken as isorla, making good the Mick-Kreese's losses, but as they'd bid only for the warriors and not the enclaves they withdrew back to Shadow after the battle.


New Kent
Attackers: 87th Mandrill Airborne (V/Q), 17th Auxiliary Cluster (R/Q), CFMS Rage, CFMS Firetender {Kindraa Beyl-Grant} [135 Points]
Defenders: 175th Attack Cluster (R/F), 176th Attack Cluster (R/F), 52nd Hector Cavaliers (R/F), CIHS Swift Bait, CIHS Hellion's Pride, CIHS Whelp [105 Points]

The Steel Viper's capital world contained a small Ice Hellion enclave garrisoned by all of Zeta Prime galaxy. Already annoyed by a recent raid on their Shandrake Massif facilities, the Vipers let Star Colonel Dora Beyl know that her destroyer Rage and corvette Firetender were outnumbered by the three Fredasa-class corvettes supporting the Galaxy - and offered to let her bid their aerospace stars in addition to her own. The resulting battle cost Beyl-Grant the Firetender but they've replaced it with the least damaged captured corvette. Whelp and Swift Bait are being salvaged by the Steel Vipers who expect to have to scrap the latter. On the ground, numbers were about even and the Ice Hellions fought fanatically to hold their ground. In the end Dora Beyl concluded losses weren't affordable and withdrew. With the Steel Vipers focused on their Occupation Zone it's Clan Coyote that may profit at the expense of the Hellions in the long run.


Hector
Attackers: Kindra Command Trinary (E/F), 3rd Sainze Honor Guard Battle Cluster (E/F), 53rd Assault Cluster (V/F), 7th Sainze Honor Guard Striker Cluster (V/F), 14th Sainze Rear Guard Battle Cluster (R/F), 19th Sainze Rear Guard Striker Cluster (R/F), CFMS Fire-Eater, CFMS Reaver, CFMS Rancor {Kindraa Sainze} [330 Points]
Defenders: 7th Attack Cluster (E/F), 150th Hellion Lancers (E/F), 77th Hellion Lancers (V/F), 78th Hellion Lancers (V/F), 40th Hellion Lancers (E/F), 180th Attack Cluster (R/Q), CIHS Cage's Pride, CIHS Taney [315 Points]

The seat of Ice Hellion power demanded the commitment of the strongest Kindraa and the Sainze stepped up, contracting warships from Kindraa Payne and Faraday-Tanaga to counter the powerful squadron expected to be over Hector. Khan Asa Taney had dispatched several ships to retrieve scattered elements of his battered Clan however so only two warships awaited the Fire Mandrills. Despite this, they put up a ferocious fight, helped by poor co-operation between the Fire Mandrill warships. The crippled Sainze flagship finally rammed the Taney, destroying both warships and allowing the landing of the invasion forces.
Unlike under-strength units elsewhere, the Ice Hellion's Alpha Galaxy was in full fighting strength, pulling elements of the 18th Attack Cluster into the understrength Hellion Lancer clusters. saKhan Garret Sainze deliberately led his command trinary and the 3rd Sainze Honor Guard headlong into the 7th Attack Cluster, itself led by Khan Taney. Equally matched in numbers and each the best that their respective clans had to offer, this was the height of the battle and left both leaders dead with their commands gutted. Losses elsewhere were heavy for both sides with the 19th Sainze Rear Guard in particular shattered by the 40th Hellion Lancers. Although this could have marked a turning point for the battle, numbers still favoured the Sainze forces and the battle threatened to be one of mutual annihilation. At this point Kindraa Leader Marc Faraday who was aboard CFMS Rancor made contact with Star Admiral Jonas Hasbrin aboard CIHS Cage's Pride and advised him of the losses suffered by his Clan already, claiming saKhan Sellen Cage was believed to be dead on Atreus. Under the circumstances he offered Hasbrin the alternative to the shattering of what remained of the Ice Hellions: absorption into Kindraa Faraday-Tanaga who would then be well placed to either dominate the Fire Mandrills or to form a new Clan.
To the outrage of the Sainze, Jonas Hasbrin accepted the offer and under the guns of the two warships (the Payne flagship wasn't inclined to challenge matters) Kindraa Sainze had no choice but to let the survivors of the Hellion's Alpha Galaxy be evacuated although they could take satisfaction in now controlling Hector and its resources.



Aftermath

SaKhan - now Khan - Sellen Cage rallied Beta Galaxy and Theta Galaxy on Barcella and established that Delta Galaxy's survivors still held the enclaves on Hoard and Londerholm while Zeta Prime had effectively consolidated into a single Cluster on New Kent. In combination these forces amounted to effectively a single full-strength Galaxy with seven warships - and no yards to maintain them.

Meanwhile Khan Amanda Carrol was watching almost incapable of believing that the triumphs of the last months' battles were now slipping away as Kindraa Sainze on Hector and Kindraa Faraday-Tanaga on Atreus were on the verge of war with each other - a war the latter were likely to win. The election of her new saKhan was likely to tear the Clan entirely apart with Draymon Sainze and Marc Faraday as the leading candidates. Meanwhile Kindraa Payne, which the Khan had hoped would be eclipsed by her own Kindraa were still strongly placed. To add to her woes, the feuding between the two naval Kindraa was fanning the flames: Mick-Kreese was aligning to Faraday-Tanaga while the Sainze and Beyl-Grant both felt they'd been short-changed.

Deciding she didn't want to be associated with the shambles she predicted, Amanda Carrol stepped down as Khan and was almost immediately asked to serve as Loremaster by Laurel Payne and Samantha Kline. The two leaders had only bolstered their positions with short and successful operations during the Ice Hellion's savaging, and except in terms of warships either could stand against Faraday-Tanaga. And they knew someone who had more warships than logistical support - not to mention a considerable grudge against Kindraa Faraday-Tanaga.

Marc Faraday and Draymon Sainze were in mid-scream at each other in the Clan Council when the former Khan announced that Khan Sellen Cage of the Ice Hellions had been defeated in battle by Laurel Payne. No sooner had Payne entered the council chambers than she welcomed her bondswoman as a warrior of Clan Fire Mandrill and nominated Sellen Cage as the new Khan. With the combined bloc of Payne, Mattila-Carrol, Kline and former Ice Hellion votes backing her, the trickle of support from Sainze and Beyl-Grant warriors delighted at Marc Faraday's chagrin sealed the decision and Samantha Kline was easily elected as saKhan.

The new Clan leadership quickly tidied up the remaining issues: the New Kent enclave was ceded to Clan Steel Viper in exchange for supplies needed to make good the economic disruption of the war, which allowed the new Hellion Kindraa to consolidate onto only three worlds. Taking advantage of Kindraa Sainze's depletion, much of their previous resources were re-directed - something that would effectively demoted them into the bottom tier of Clan Fire Mandrill until they could rebuild from the Ice Hellion resources on Hector.

Finally, the warship fleet was re-apportioned. Faraday-Tanaga now possessed two including a battleship while Mick-Kreese had three light vessels, Beyl-Grant two and Payne only one. To counter this, the remaining Ice Hellion fleet was parted out with Kline, Payne and Mattila-Carrol each receiving one of the four destroyers. Kline also receive the cruiser Chaos Sailor while the Carrack-class Maker is assigned to Kindra Sainze. In theory this allows each Kindraa to field its own warships while continuing to strip Kindraa Sainze of striking power.

Clan Coyote petitioned the Grand Council to Absorb the remains of Clan Ice Hellion - a few hundred warriors who hadn't followed Sellen Cage into the Mandrills and the enclaves on Tathis and Babylon. No one contested the Absorption and a motion to censure the Fire Mandrill's for Absorbing the Ice Hellions' assets piecemeal was defeated with an ample majority, more important things (the Great Refusal) being on the agenda.


Post-Absorption (& Post-Great Refusal) Fire Mandrill assets
8 Kindraas (33 clusters and 14 warships)
Enclaves: Atreus (100%), Barcella (38%), Dagda (26%), Foster (60%), Hector (100%), Hoard (40%), Londerholm (68%), Marshall (24%), Shadow (100%)
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Marlin

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Re: How did Clan Ice Hellion survive?
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2014, 05:53:28 AM »

Hm. Interesting What if but does not answer the question. I would like some more opinions, but perhaps there are none.
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Re: How did Clan Ice Hellion survive?
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2014, 09:31:24 AM »

Pretty detailed work drak, I'll definitely give it a closer look which at this time I have yet to do. However I wanted to expound on some of my thoughts first. A couple of weeks back I was thinking that in a post wars of reaving scenario Star Adder is gonna need more warriors to invade the InnerSphere. How can that be accomplished? IMO you had a lot of destroyed Clans recently that didn't fit the exact legal criteria for annihilation. Smoke Jaguar for example. Yes that Clan was destroyed but the Grand Council never voted to annihilate them for crimes against Clan society like the Not Named Ones. Such a decision to use their genes and hence Mongoose (Widowmaker) genes as well would be the start of new Clans. Hell's Horses stuff really went to the Stone Lions which would be the first of these newbies. I'm really not sure of the exact circumstances of the demise of other Clans (Ice Hellion, Fire Mandrill, Steel Viper, or even Blood Spirit) but if they were not Annihilated their Bloodnames could simply be reactivated. I know the other Clans were Abjured (Wolf, Jade Falcon, Ghost Bear, Hell's Horses, Diamond Shark, Snow Raven, Goliath Scorpion, Nova Cat) but could their names be reactivated as well to form new Clans?? The finally extreme measure is to have the ilKhan found a few more blood houses. Not many but just to bring these newbies up to the magic number, 40. This would create a pool of new candidates for these new Clans which would see the Bloodnames shuffled to create a new mix and breeds. Minimum as I see it is six (6) new Clans could be created during this process with as many as eight (8) additional Clans created from the tainted InnerSphere Clans using their genes prior to the Invasion. Of course they'd need a minimum of two generations to prove themselves as true Clans (Mongoose I believe had to failed generations which was given as a cause for their absorption). You could really grow the Clans in this way.

Here you could Split the Baby or in this case the Clan. Could also call it Agreeing to disagree. Nicholas Kerensky set down the foundation of a Clan with 40 bloodnames. In this case you have Fire Mandrill starting with 7 Kindraa and 40 Bloodnames. Absorbing Ice Hellions gives your Kindraa enough to form 2 Clans but other bloodnames could be obtained from already absorbed Clans as I pointed out above. Smoke Jaguar doesn't use Mongoose bloodnames although the Cloud Cobras captured a few can't imagine the Jags really care. Perhaps the some Widowmaker bloodnames cloud be culled from Wolf as well. That could give 3 or 4 Kindraas a chance to survive as their own Clans and finally unite the remaining Fire Mandrills in this eventuality. Thoughts?
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drakensis

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Re: How did Clan Ice Hellion survive?
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2014, 10:57:12 AM »

I considered whether to divide the resulting Clan but I eventually decided that at least one - and perhaps both - of the new clans would be cripplingly weak and would probably get absorbed.

Now in 10-15 years (if they had that long), after raising new sibkos and recruiting from freebirths (not to mention replacing equipment) I suspect the Fire Mandrills could split into two, possibly three Clans: Tanaga-Faraday and Mick-Kreese departing first and quite possibly either the Sainze and Beyl-Grant or the former Hellions breaking off later.
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masterarminas

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Re: How did Clan Ice Hellion survive?
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2014, 11:33:24 AM »

Wonderful, Drak.  That is what I was talking about!  Or something similar.

MA
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drakensis

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Re: How did Clan Ice Hellion survive?
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2014, 12:14:38 PM »

Reading through the Ice Hellion section of Crusader Clans it wasn't just the low numbers that stuck out - it was the fact that so many of the units had other problems. The half of Zeta Galaxy on Marshall was a rotten twig - logistics, command structure and numbers all a wreck. One good kick...
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