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Author Topic: Interesting Discussion  (Read 2874 times)

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Dread Moores

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Re: Interesting Discussion
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2012, 05:38:52 PM »

But at the same time a WarShip, or at least an armed transport of some sort would be better in the short run (in BattleTech verse) because of the massive Cargo Holds a WarShip has.

That's really not necessary. There are plenty of cargo DropShips available. That's one area the BTU doesn't lack. Additionally, it puts the cost of the fleet up massively, as WarShip cores are incredibly more expensive. It's also probably a lot more likely to inspire feelings of fear in whatever systems you pass through, increasing the likelihood of "accidents."
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Knightmare

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Re: Interesting Discussion
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2012, 09:52:26 AM »

Plus, WarShips can't land on a planetary surface. So while the increased cargo carrying capacity of a WarShip might be appreciated, you're tacking on a whole lot of time transporting it to your new colony.

A cargo DropShip can transport from Point A to Point B with a single load and unload.
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Takiro

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Re: Interesting Discussion
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2012, 12:04:35 PM »

Plus, WarShips can't land on a planetary surface. So while the increased cargo carrying capacity of a WarShip might be appreciated, you're tacking on a whole lot of time transporting it to your new colony.

A cargo DropShip can transport from Point A to Point B with a single load and unload.

I'd like to know if a KF Core can transit an atmosphere cause I got an idea for a hybrid.  ;)
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Dragon Cat

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Re: Interesting Discussion
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2012, 01:13:16 PM »

Plus, WarShips can't land on a planetary surface. So while the increased cargo carrying capacity of a WarShip might be appreciated, you're tacking on a whole lot of time transporting it to your new colony.

A cargo DropShip can transport from Point A to Point B with a single load and unload.

I'd like to know if a KF Core can transit an atmosphere cause I got an idea for a hybrid.  ;)

It can't jury's out on a Sub-Compact Core since the Devs haven't been drawn on it but doesn't look promising.
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Really, as long as there is an unbroken line of people calling themselves "Clan Nova Cat," it doesn't really matter to me if they're still using Iron Wombs or not. They may be dead as a faction, but as a people they still exist. It's not uncommon in the real world, after all.

Dread Moores

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Re: Interesting Discussion
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2012, 01:36:00 PM »

It can, if you want it to immediately and automatically result in what has become known as "Standard Davion Naval Tactic # 1 through Infinity."
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Knightmare

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Re: Interesting Discussion
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2012, 04:11:43 PM »

It can, if you want it to immediately and automatically result in what has become known as "Standard Davion Naval Tactic # 1 through Infinity."

Hehe. I prefer: "DOME inspired terraforming."
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Dread Moores

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Re: Interesting Discussion
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2012, 08:59:56 PM »

I would as well, as I pretty much prefer anything non-Davion. Then again, I'll make an exception in this case, simply because it makes the Davions have a military weakness. That's a welcome change of pace. Apparently, that's all they taught in Davion naval classes. "Here's how to execute a jump. Here's how to execute a ramming manuever. Here's how to combine the two. Congratulations graduates!"
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Knightmare

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Re: Interesting Discussion
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2012, 10:32:51 PM »

I'd add: "Abandon formation", and "Ignore Orders" to the same class.
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Dragon Cat

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Re: Interesting Discussion
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2012, 03:00:10 AM »

I'd add: "Abandon formation", and "Ignore Orders" to the same class.

For one ship, the one thing that gets me is the Davions get labelled because of what I'd say is lazy writing and an angst against warships

Conversation follows

"we need to kill WarShips"
"ok I'll kill this one"
"better have it ram the other one kill two one throw"
"we did that with the last Davion ship"
"we want dead warships - see 2 dead WarShips"

I get where Herb has been going recently less gun toting more carrier type ships (not that I agree with it) but the way they eliminated so many WarShips was a bit of a joke IMO
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Really, as long as there is an unbroken line of people calling themselves "Clan Nova Cat," it doesn't really matter to me if they're still using Iron Wombs or not. They may be dead as a faction, but as a people they still exist. It's not uncommon in the real world, after all.

Minerva12345

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Re: Interesting Discussion
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2012, 11:21:05 AM »

I'd think multiple DropShips would need to be broken up or used as habitats to start with, or even integrated into the structures.

I gave this idea a thought and then wanted to trademark a quote "The Most Expensive Pigstye You'll Ever See." Pondering further this line of thought I came across a concept of using DropShip walls (that have been bathing in space for months to year(s)) as walls protecting(?) my main protein source. Then I mutated this idea further thingking that there should be a colony tradition of wrestling with giant mutant hogs...
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Dread Moores

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Re: Interesting Discussion
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2012, 06:20:27 PM »

I get where Herb has been going recently less gun toting more carrier type ships (not that I agree with it) but the way they eliminated so many WarShips was a bit of a joke IMO

Herb wasn't the chief line developer when Davion WarShips did the lion's share of their kamikaze tactics. That had far more to do with specific authors in certain novels (as most of those wacky Davion shenanigans occurred during the Twilight of the Clans and the FedCom Civil War). Specifically, you'd be looking more at Mr. Pardoe and Mr. Coleman for most of those issues.

WarShips destroyed under Herb's tenure have actually had more usual action than at most other points in the history of WarShip writing. They've gone out in blazes of glory in black-sea naval conflicts (many of them quite huge) throughout the course of the Jihad. So I'm not sure what is exactly a joke about that.

I bring this up, because it's a common complaint, and it seems to be an equally common misconception. Ships in the Jihad were destroyed, that's absolutely true. But they were destroyed doing exactly what they were built for...war. Ground forces saw far more "flipping over the table" moments (via nukes or bio weapons or giant rocks or whatever) than anything naval forces faced. Now, that's also because nukes aren't a "flipping over the table" moment in naval environments. But particularly as you close on the Protectorate and Terra...you really want to complain about WarShips destruction there? Those ships that were destroyed went out in some of the most intense naval conflicts seen since the SLDF's Liberation of Terra. The Twilight of the Clans and the battles at Trafalgar and Huntress had nothing on this. If you don't want WarShips to be gone, I understand the disappointment. If you're disappointed about the way that WarShips were destroyed over the course of the Jihad...then I think you might need to double check if you really want to call such naval vessels "War"Ships.
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Blacknova

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Re: Interesting Discussion
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2012, 06:28:15 PM »

I think the crux of the complaint, one that I have not seen voiced, is that the ships were destroyed and not replaced.

However, I think what TPTB are doing (according to MadCaps thoughts in another post) is making a move from 1906-1930s are naval strategy "I kills it with my battleships"* to a more post-WWII style of combat, with carriers as the central force, light escorts and swarms of fighters.  Being an avid Cold War Naval fan, my dispair over the loss of BT WarShips has changed to one of quiet hope.

Also, what if someone develops stealth naval armour. Suddenly you have ships operating like submaries of today.  That would be pretty cool...

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Dread Moores

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Re: Interesting Discussion
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2012, 07:35:27 PM »

I think the crux of the complaint, one that I have not seen voiced, is that the ships were destroyed and not replaced.

Everything after this quote, I pretty much agree with. I agree with this quote (and the complaint as well), but from the completely opposite end. Battletech needs obsolescence badly. It needs things to go away and never come back. It needs new things to replace those missing things. There's a reason that TROs are one of the top sellers. Unfortunately, the mentality behind WarShips (that of obsolescence to eventually be replaced predominately by carrier DropShips and pocket WarShips) hasn't been applied to the rest of Battletech. Most non-naval, non-infantry unit types are pretty bloated with designs. New designs don't seek to fill missing gaps, because there's still hundreds or thousands of the old things floating around. Extinction isn't a threat for most unit types (particularly 'Mechs), and that leads to the situation you have now.

Let's go with an example (and something that will likely be viewed as sacrilege). When the Phoenix designs were lost (the visual aspects of them, that is), they had an amazing opportunity to give a whole new generation of units a push. How awesome would the Hammerhands have been, if it became the entire replacement for Davion Warhammers? How much less boring would the Warlord be if the Davions had said "We can't do BattleMasters anymore, and we need something to fill that role. Here you go." Project Phoenix was something that hamstrung the future development of the game in the worst way. Two TROs later, we're already getting another entire Phoenix section. We keep going back to the same old designs, which makes the new designs seem pretty superfluous. It's led to a growing sense of bloat and blandness among these combat arms.

Now, the one place that hasn't happened in BT? Naval warfare. You actually have a clean break, and a clear point of obsolescence in the Jihad. Going forward, the factions realize that they need something in that role, hence the expansion of pocket WarShips and carrier fleets. Have you lost the big battlebarges? Sure. But here's the interesting question...when did you ever really have them? They weren't around at BT's creation. They weren't given stats until Battlespace. But considering the current era being written at the time of Battlespace (leading into the Clan Invasion and forward), when did players suddenly rush out to begin playing large naval actions? They didn't see use during the Clan Invasion, until the Twilight of the Clans (and then in two or three limited conflicts). They saw a few limited conflicts during the FCCW. So where was this giant fleet action era in any of the actual timeline of written Battletech material? Way back in the Star League, in an era (that up to the pre-Jihad writing period) had exactly one out of print book covering it? On their home table top, maybe. But now you are asking Battletech to support your own non-canon play with canon product, simply because you want it that way.

That means that the massive fan outrage about WarShips isn't exactly so massive. In over 25 years of selling product, Battletech's creators have never found an overwhelming market for products relating to WarShips or the era of massive naval conflicts. Sure, the outrage is vocal online...in a tiny, tiny, nowhere near representative minority of the Battletech customer base. But sales numbers don't lie. TROs sell well, so new toys clearly sell. And of those new toys, 'Mechs sell. What hasn't sold? WarShips, judging by their less and less frequent appearance in TROs, in era where their production was increasing. And here is where I find the overly vocal WarShip crowd to be a mite bit hypocritical. Under the aegis of the late-era CGL line developers (Randall and Herb primarily), you have had more product supporting large naval actions and WarShips that at any other point in BT's publication history. You have even been given material to support the era of massive naval fleets (the Star League and Reunification War era). So..what more do you really expect in the way of support for a unit type that clearly has not been a big sales driver for the overall Battletech consumer base? Honestly...of anything in the BT setting, WarShip fans seem to have the least to complain about. You haven't been drowned in unit bloat. You've been given a massive blaze of glory exit. You have a future in smaller and more varied, versatile, and interesting ship types. You've been given historical information to cover the era with the most relevance to that unit type. What the hell is missing? I'd kill to have just 'Mechs (let alone the other combat arms) treated with the same care and foresight.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 07:36:43 PM by Dread Moores »
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Knightmare

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Re: Interesting Discussion
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2012, 10:14:31 PM »

Forgive me, but I've been drinking, but WOW.

+Infinity, and I love Aerospace.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 10:15:01 PM by Knightmare »
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Dragon Cat

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Re: Interesting Discussion
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2012, 11:20:01 PM »

I just hope we haven't seen the last of them in the future ( I mean proper WarShips not just pockets, full scale cruisers, destroyers, BCs) always loved Aerotech since I got TRO 3057 (the original - although the upgrade is nice too) :)
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My stuff, and my AU timeline follow link and enjoy

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The original CBT thread
Dragon Cat on CBT


Really, as long as there is an unbroken line of people calling themselves "Clan Nova Cat," it doesn't really matter to me if they're still using Iron Wombs or not. They may be dead as a faction, but as a people they still exist. It's not uncommon in the real world, after all.
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