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Author Topic: Rifles becoming extinct  (Read 4072 times)

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Ice Hellion

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Rifles becoming extinct
« on: February 11, 2018, 02:06:43 PM »
I looked at the 2nd Succession War Sourcebook and in it, I saw that Rifles became extinct during this period, which makes absolutely no sense since these weapons are just our good old guns from today (if they lost the tech to do that, they should have lost almost all the other tech as well).

Any reason for this that you might know or think of?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 02:07:42 PM by Ice Hellion »
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marauder648

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Re: Rifles becoming extinct
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2018, 03:01:01 PM »
I would assume that they are so basic that no one produced them as a weapon.  But thats bullhucky.  They'd probably not go extinct, its like Mech's of that period and the 3rd succession war would have rocket launchers or a MRM equivalent as options. 
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LiamsGhost

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Re: Rifles becoming extinct
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2018, 06:24:00 PM »
Keep in mind that "extinct" in a rules sense doesn't mean completely gone. It might not even necessarily mean no longer produced. It simply means that no known manufacturer of significance is still building them.

In this context, it arguably does make sense, because even in the succession wars era, there are better alternatives, and there's no reason for the houses to make them when they can still make autocannons and lasers. Once you're building rifles, you also need to build ammunition for them, taking up time, industrial capacity, and logistical load. It's a considerable investment of scarce major industries for little tangible gain.

That said, rifles are so simple that if someone decided they had a reason to build them (I can think of a couple places where a rifle might be pretty handy), they probably could retool existing industries to do it with little effort.

And funny note about rocket launchers. The marian version is unavailable until the 3060s, but the primitive version is very available in all eras. I suspect that in this case it's less that people are actually manufacturing them and more that they're so simple that if there's a demand they can be turned out quickly with little to no industrial capability.
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Rifles becoming extinct
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2018, 03:53:49 PM »
Quote from: LiamsGhost on February 11, 2018, 06:24:00 PM
Keep in mind that "extinct" in a rules sense doesn't mean completely gone. It might not even necessarily mean no longer produced. It simply means that no known manufacturer of significance is still building them.

In this context, it arguably does make sense, because even in the succession wars era, there are better alternatives, and there's no reason for the houses to make them when they can still make autocannons and lasers. Once you're building rifles, you also need to build ammunition for them, taking up time, industrial capacity, and logistical load. It's a considerable investment of scarce major industries for little tangible gain.

That said, rifles are so simple that if someone decided they had a reason to build them (I can think of a couple places where a rifle might be pretty handy), they probably could retool existing industries to do it with little effort.

And funny note about rocket launchers. The marian version is unavailable until the 3060s, but the primitive version is very available in all eras. I suspect that in this case it's less that people are actually manufacturing them and more that they're so simple that if there's a demand they can be turned out quickly with little to no industrial capability.

I understand your point of view. However it would mean that extinct has two meanings, one for Rifles/Rocket Launchers and the other for more advanced weapons...
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Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

DOC_Agren

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Re: Rifles becoming extinct
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2018, 06:06:15 PM »
and if I might throw in my $0.02 there is a lot of what I will call primitive weapons who went extinct because otherwise you have to explain why we never saw them until a given point in battletech when they were reintroduced.
Rocket Launchers are the best example

I have used Rifles on a couple of designs who were not designed to engage Real Combat Units, but instead hunt down rebel forces and other troublemakers and well in a pinch I could scratch Real Combat Units, before I die a horrible death at their guns.

On the other hand we all understand why the advanced hardware went extinct before they were reintroduced.  So I would say yes there are 2 means to extinct.
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LiamsGhost

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Re: Rifles becoming extinct
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2018, 06:07:26 PM »
First, primitive rocket launchers are never classified as extinct.  It's one of those amusing technologies that's readily available even during the worst of the succession wars, but doesn't appear on the canon designs of the era. Like the smart robotic control system.  ;D

And really, it's the same definition. It simply means that they're out of production, and in both cases you might stumble across them from time to time (advanced weapons in a cache, rifles... maybe on more primitive worlds in the periphery). Extinct simply means you shouldn't run into them, except in extremely unusual circumstances.

Whether or not they can be reproduced is a separate question, more tied to the complexity of the item. I would sometimes like to think that the Inner Sphere is large enough that any weapon technology that could be created by existing industries is, but that doesn't seem to be the feel they went for for the succession wars. In this world (cobbled together from the confused early days of writing the universe), factories are rare, mechs are scarce, and I suppose proven hardware gets priority.
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JPArbiter

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Re: Rifles becoming extinct
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2018, 02:34:35 PM »
Extinction does have two definitions.

unable to be produced and/or not in general use.  See also most word of blake designs.  I am willing to be the blueprints for the machining are still on a computer core in Russia somewhere in 3150.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 02:35:29 PM by JPArbiter »
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LiamsGhost

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Re: Rifles becoming extinct
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2018, 10:07:02 PM »
That's not two definitions, thats one reason for extinction (unable to be produced) and a definition of extinction (not in general use).

All extinct items are not in general use.

Some are not in general use because they can't be produced.

Some are not in general use because they aren't being produced.

Some cease to be extinct because the technology to build them is recovered.

Others cease to be extinct because someone finds a reason to start building them again.

Still others fail to return because despite the technology being recovered to build them, nobody's found a use for them.

It's still the same extinction, just the details are different.
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