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Author Topic: Moving Infantry  (Read 10580 times)

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Hammer6R

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Re: Moving Infantry
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2011, 02:56:10 AM »

I was thinking of the original 3025 Drops & Jumps.....I just don't have my copy handy, but I'm certain about the 'battalion' line. I've been using the Intruder as the main infantry dropship in most states for years, based solely on the 3025-era Drops & Jumps, because it was a tail-lander, unlike the Condor, which I've always taken as a company-scale transport...
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Halvagor

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Re: Moving Infantry
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2011, 03:30:11 AM »

My copy of FASA 1619 Dropships and Jumpships copyright 1988 doesn't even have the word "battalion" anywhere in the Intruder writeup. 

The text is as follows:

Quote from: FASA 1619 Dropships and Jumpships
"The Intruder Class DropShip is a combat assault ship designed to support raiding operations or to attack heavily defended ground targets.  The ship often takes the place of the lighter-armed and -armored Union Class DropShip, especially when no BattleMech support is needed.

"The Intruder's well-armored, 3,000-ton hull contains a large assortment of weaponry, and its cargo section has a 675-ton capacity with enough area to carry up to ten heavy vehicles.  To provide aerospace support, there is a Fighter bay on either side of the hull, each equipped with servicing support equipment and a single small craft cubicle.  The Intruder often carries a pair of Land-Air-'Mechs to provide a light 'Mech force, which gives it great flexibility in its operations.

"The ship carries a marine support unit for ground combat, boarding operations, and scouting purposes.  This unit normally consists of three infantry platoons, though special circumstances often require the use of an armor unit, motorized infantry, a scout unit, or specially organized irregular units.  Quarters are provided for up to 90 troops. 

"The ship is equipped with three large bays that the marine units use for Training purposes.  These bays contain target practice simulators, visual training aids, and plenty of floor space for physical activities.  The training bays often serve as recreation rooms when not needed for other purposes.

"The Intruder's well-equipped medical facility can handle most emergency cases that occur during combat.  It consists of an emergency treatment room, which can handle two cases simultaneously, an intensive care ward with room for up to six patients, and a tiny dispensary for treating minor injuries and illnesses. 

"To support the marine unit during ground operations, the ship carries a well-equipped command center.  From this room, deep inside the armored walls of the ship, the marine commander can control all the activities of the three platoons and any other units operating with the Intruder's troops.  The command center contains extensive communications gear, combat computers, mapboards, and tactical intelligence displays."

[Two paragraphs on the landing gear]

"The Intruder is most often used in raids and in intelligence-gathering missions to worlds known to be occupied by hostile forces.  The ship is ideal for such missions because it can fight in space or on the ground without support from other DropShips.  Once landed, the ship can then deploy its reconnaissance or raiding forces, which are coordinated from the Intruder's command center.  Its heavy armament keeps it well-protected from enemy AeroSpace Fighters and ground forces."

[Two paragraphs about assignments to planetary assault forces and the few extant variants]
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Hessian

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Re: Moving Infantry
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2011, 05:44:24 PM »

Sorry -- may be showing my ignorance here, but 4 platoons equals a battalion? The listing for the Intruder in the original DS/JS TRO lists it as carrying a (small) battalions-worth of troops (listed as 'commandos' in the text). With infantry, a 'small' battalion would be 300-ish people, in 8-10 platoons (mostly infantry, with some support troops). Four platoons is barely a company, which should have 5 or 6, minimum.

To me, the Intruder should be carrying 300-500 troops. Even allowing for improvements in technology, you can't really deploy fewer than 500 troops and expect to do anything with them. Ask the US Army in Iraq. Infantry are there to control the population and act as scouts in the field -- it's only insane people like Grayson Carlyle who actually have infantry fight 'Mechs ;) -- and appearance is everything.

3-4 Platoons (Platoon = Lance) is an expanded company (84-112 troopers) to me. 9-12 Platoons (254-336 troopers) would be battalion strength for infantry. Numbers given for 28 man platoons (Foot and Motorized).

Well... according to the Field Manual series the standard size of an infantry battalion for the various powers is as follows:
DCMS: 252 troops(3 companies of 3 platoons of 4 squads of 7 troops) per page 17 of FM:DC
FWLM: 448 troops(4 companies of 4 platoons of 4 squads of 7 troops) per page 20 of FM:FWL
CCAF: 259 troops(3 companies+command squad of 3 platoons of 4 squads of 7 troops)
AFFS: 258 troops(3 companies of 3 platoons of 4 squads of 7 troops) per page 22 of FM:FS
LAAF: 231-301 troops(3 companies+command platoon of 3 platoons+command squad of 3-4 squads of 7 troops)

Periphery militaries: 252 troops(3 companies of 3 platoons of 4 squads of 7 troops) per page 16 of FM:P with the exception of the Marian Hegemony which uses a different organizational scheme.



So in the BT universe a standard infantry battalion consists of 9 to 16 platoons.

But back to Takiro's original question: Given these numbers it seems that if infantry is transported over interstellar distances at all it is done in company or battalion sized units, but not whole regiments. At least that is my interpretation of the infantry transport capacities of canon DropShips and the size of standard infantry battalions.

Though I wonder if the Fortress, Fury, Intruder, Seeker and Triumph are not used for standard infantry but Spec.Ops Infantry units(e.g. Commandos) or other specialized infantry types(like some of those in TRO:3085) and that standard infantry is transported in battalion-sized units or that standard infantry is either transported in converted cargo spaces(as Halvagor suggested) or not at all(as Ice Hellion suggested).
Given the currently available information this seems to be the most logical expplanation to me.

Just my thoughts though...


Ciao
Hessian




 
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Dread Moores

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Re: Moving Infantry
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2011, 05:52:45 PM »

But back to Takiro's original question: Given these numbers it seems that if infantry is transported over interstellar distances at all it is done in company or battalion sized units, but not whole regiments. At least that is my interpretation of the infantry transport capacities of canon DropShips and the size of standard infantry battalions.

Though I wonder if the Fortress, Fury, Intruder, Seeker and Triumph are not used for standard infantry but Spec.Ops Infantry units(e.g. Commandos) or other specialized infantry types(like some of those in TRO:3085) and that standard infantry is transported in battalion-sized units or that standard infantry is either transported in converted cargo spaces(as Halvagor suggested) or not at all(as Ice Hellion suggested).
Given the currently available information this seems to be the most logical expplanation to me.

Agreed on the company and battalion sized transport. We do have canon materials showing that infantry are in fact moved though, both through the 4th SW, the Clan Invasion, the FCCW, and onwards. Most of those movements are as part an RCT or similar grouping, but it is clear that infantry are being moved. There are some examples in the FCCW sourcebook of independent infantry regiments being moved, though more often they were specialists like airmobile or spec ops.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 05:53:34 PM by Dread Moores »
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Hammer6R

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Re: Moving Infantry
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2011, 02:15:50 AM »

My copy of FASA 1619 Dropships and Jumpships copyright 1988 doesn't even have the word "battalion" anywhere in the Intruder writeup.

The text is as follows:

[snipped]

....Well, foosh!  :o :-[ My bad....I don't know how my brain transcribed 'battalion' into that....
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Takiro

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Re: Moving Infantry
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2011, 05:50:23 AM »

Happens, I'm typing here at 3 am in the morning who knows what I'm writing not me for sure.  ;)

Do you guys think that a Monarch or a Princess would be more ideal? It sounds that comfort is what we are getting at in this thread. Dedicated quarters could be a big plus moving infantry. Infantry bays are great for rapid deployment depending on mission specialty. Better than cargo cattle wagons that seem to be the norm.
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Hessian

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Re: Moving Infantry
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2011, 06:08:00 AM »

Do you guys think that a Monarch or a Princess would be more ideal?

Yes, I would think so. Away from combat situations this would make sense to me.

Ciao
Hessian
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Halvagor

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Re: Moving Infantry
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2011, 10:35:43 AM »

Happens, I'm typing here at 3 am in the morning who knows what I'm writing not me for sure.  ;)

Do you guys think that a Monarch or a Princess would be more ideal? It sounds that comfort is what we are getting at in this thread. Dedicated quarters could be a big plus moving infantry. Infantry bays are great for rapid deployment depending on mission specialty. Better than cargo cattle wagons that seem to be the norm.
Honestly?  I don't think a DropShip is the solution.  Certainly not one of the small ones of 5000 tons or less.

Here's a Mule variant which has replaced nearly all its cargo capacity with steerage compartments for troop-transport.  It also includes 90 days of supplies and 8 small craft so it could do boarding missions en route or use the craft in landing operations while the dropship stays well out of the fighting.

Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name:  Mule (Troop Transport)
Tech:              Inner Sphere / 2737
Vessel Type:       Spheroid DropShip
Rules:             Level 1, Custom design
Rules Set:         AeroTech2

Mass:              11,200 tons
Length:            158 meters
Power Plant:       Standard
Safe Thrust:       3
Maximum Thrust:    5
Armor Type:        Standard
Armament:         
    1 Autocannon/5
    8 Medium Laser
    2 Small Laser
    2 SRM 6
    3 Large Laser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name:  Mule (Troop Transport)
Mass:              11,200 tons

Equipment:                                                            Mass 
Power Plant, Drive & Control:                                        2,184.00
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 3
      Maximum Thrust: 5
Structural Integrity: 10                                               224.00
Total Heat Sinks:    59 Single                                            .00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps:                                                     326.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters:                 84.00
Fire Control Computers:                                                   .00
Food & Water:  (94 days supply)                                        450.00
Armor Type:  Standard  (290 total armor pts)                            16.00
                           Standard Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Fore:                                 70
   Left/Right Sides:                  80/80
   Aft:                                  60

Cargo:
   Bay 1:  Cargo (1) with 2 doors                                      614.00
   Bay 2:  Small Craft (8) with 2 doors                              1,600.00

Life Boats:  64 (7 tons each)                                          448.00
Escape Pods:  64 (7 tons each)                                         448.00

Crew and Passengers:
      4 Officers (3 minimum)                                            40.00
     13 Crew (1 minimum)                                                91.00
      3 Gunners (3 minimum)                                             21.00
    900 Steerage Passengers                                          4,500.00
     40 Bay Personnel                                                     .00
Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Autocannon/5(40 rounds)  Nose      1(5)   1(5)     --     --    1     10.00
1 Medium Laser             Nose      1(5)     --     --     --    3      1.00
2 Small Laser              Nose      1(6)     --     --     --    2      1.00
1 SRM 6(15 rounds)         FL/R      1(8)     --     --     --    8      8.00
2 Medium Laser             FL/R     1(10)     --     --     --   12      4.00
1 Large Laser              AL/R     1(13)   1(8)     --     --   16     10.00
  1 Medium Laser                                                  6      2.00
1 Large Laser              Aft      1(13)   1(8)     --     --    8      5.00
  1 Medium Laser                                                  3      1.00
1 Lot Spare Parts (1.00%)                                              112.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                               Heat: 59      11,200.00
Tons Left:                                                                .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        313,308,128 C-Bills
Battle Value:      1,664
Cost per BV:       188,286.13
Weapon Value:      2,453 (Ratio = 1.47)
Damage Factors:    SRV = 83;  MRV = 21;  LRV = 0;  ERV = 0
Maintenance:       Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 85,013
                   (24,862 Structure, 58,920 Life Support, 1,231 Weapons)
                   Support Points (SP) = 24,308  (29% of MPV)
BattleForce2:      MP: 3,  Armor/Structure: 5 / 5
                   Damage PB/M/L: 3/1/-,  Overheat: 0
                   Class: DL;  Point Value: 17
                   Specials: sph
Its 900 person capacity I settled upon as it would allow the FWLM to carry two battalions aboard, while everyone else could fit three battalions and a hundred or so additional personnel (such as the inevitable regimental staff). 

As for those small craft, here's an example of turning a small craft into an infantry landing craft:
Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name:  Inf Delivery
Tech:              Inner Sphere / 3025
Vessel Type:       Aerodyne Small Craft
Rules:             Level 1, Standard design
Rules Set:         AeroTech2

Mass:              200 tons
Length:            31 meters
Power Plant:       Standard
Safe Thrust:       5
Maximum Thrust:    8
Armor Type:        Standard
Armament:         
    1 LRM 10
    1 Medium Laser
    4 Small Laser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name:  Inf Delivery
Mass:              200 tons

Equipment:                                                              Mass
Power Plant, Drive & Control:                                           65.00
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 5
      Maximum Thrust: 8
Structural Integrity: 8                                                  8.00
Total Heat Sinks:    11 Single                                          10.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps:                                                      29.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters:                  1.50
Fire Control Computers:                                                   .00
Food & Water:  (15 days supply)                                          8.50
Armor Type:  Standard  (280 total armor pts)                            15.50
                           Standard Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Fore:                                 80
   Left/Right Wings:                  72/72
   Aft:                                  56

Cargo:
   Bay 1:  Infantry (motor) Platoons (4) with 4 doors                   28.00
   Bay 2:  Cargo (1)                                                     8.00


Crew and Passengers:
      3 Crew (3 minimum)                                                12.00
      1 Gunners (1 minimum)                                              4.00
    112 Bay Personnel                                                     .00
Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 LRM 10                   Nose         6      6      6     --    4      5.00
  Ammo (LRM 10) 24         ---                                           2.00
1 Medium Laser             Nose         5     --     --     --    3      1.00
4 Small Laser              Aft          3     --     --     --    4      2.00
1 Lot Spare Parts (0.25%)                                                 .50
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                                    Heat: 11    200.00
Tons Left:                                                                .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        12,558,560 C-Bills
Battle Value:      793
Cost per BV:       15,836.77
Weapon Value:      1,422 (Ratio = 1.79)
Damage Factors:    SRV = 21;  MRV = 4;  LRV = 2;  ERV = 0
Maintenance:       Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 7,504
                   (831 Structure, 6,450 Life Support, 223 Weapons)
                   Support Points (SP) = 3,152  (42% of MPV)
BattleForce2:      MP: 5,  Armor/Structure: 7 / 0
                   Damage PB/M/L: 1/1/1,  Overheat: 0
                   Class: DS;  Point Value: 8
                   Specials: if
Each of these Infantry Delivery craft can carry a full company of troops for anyone other than the FWL (so long as you ignore the command squad, which is pretty meaningless in play), and of motorized troops at that.  Now, it's an aerodyne craft, so the infantry is best used as paratroopers, because the craft can't land very easily, but it can come back around to provide some light fire support, though I wouldn't recommend it given that it's armed like a Valkyrie.  A spheroid would be able to land, but be much more vulnerable to interception in-flight, so I went with the aerodyne.
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Hammer6R

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Re: Moving Infantry
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2011, 11:36:56 AM »

Nice pirate raider!  ;) ;D You could place a reinforced infantry/commando company (c.300-400) aboard each of two of these, and have enough personnel to raid warehouses for loot, grab slaves and cause hate-n-discontent in general, if covered by a 'Mech company in a Union...

OTOH, the Marine in me salivates at the potential here: two of these, plus two conventional Mule's for supplies, plus one Triumph and one Titan for Aerospace support ferried by a Star Lord make for one heck of a non-Mech assault unit -- I could call that a 'Marine Aerospace Expeditionary Unit'  8) ...

Gripping Hand, this design actually makes a great deal of military sense, since it uses readily-available spaceframes (that are easy to work on, and have plentiful spare parts), and because it would be easy to disguise for raiding or other surprise assaults......
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Halvagor

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Re: Moving Infantry
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2011, 01:23:22 PM »

Yes, it'd make a great raider in the same sense that a Wasp LHD would -- note in particular that it can land a full infantry company at each of eight different points simultaneously.  Pirates wouldn't use it for that, since it can't carry cargo, but it'd make a decent boarding shuttle, and since few JumpShips carry fighters, it means the pirates wouldn't need any heavier aerofighters of their own.  In one barely-armed shuttle they've got enough firepower to intimidate a Jumper and enough troops to overwhelm the crew.  A real bargain for prospective pirates. 

Fortunately for those who want to pillage and not just burn, I've also got a civilian-style 200 ton craft with a 100 ton cargo capacity.  Perfect for hauling everything that's not nailed down (but anything which can be pried up). 
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Re: Moving Infantry
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2011, 10:47:46 PM »

Speaking of a raider...  After interjecting to ask questions in a thread on CBT.com, did you know that WiGE aircraft can be dropped like Mechs?  Oh, my.

Quote
Aren't the rules for that in StratOps? WiGEs are explicitly listed among the units that can make atmospheric drops and use basically the same rules as 'Mechs, except that they can choose to spend 5 MP upon landing to remain airborne as usual (still can't actually land and move on the same turn, but that option they have).

Quote
Correct. StratOps pp. 23 has that rule.

The key is in pp.22:

"'Mechs, ProtoMechs, battle armor, WiGE Vehicles and vehicles with jumping MP may make atmospheric drops."

Same page states that these units may be dropped from as high as the atmosphere interface hexrow on the high-altitude aerospace map.
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Halvagor

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Re: Moving Infantry
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2011, 11:03:29 PM »

Well, that actually gives WiGEs a reason to exist.  Shame that vehicle bays aren't reported as having the same drop capabilities as 'Mech bays, however, which were I a rules lawyer I would use to justify preventing WiGEs from being able to execute a drop.
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Dread Moores

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Re: Moving Infantry
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2011, 12:04:45 AM »

Well, that actually gives WiGEs a reason to exist.  Shame that vehicle bays aren't reported as having the same drop capabilities as 'Mech bays, however, which were I a rules lawyer I would use to justify preventing WiGEs from being able to execute a drop.

I'd imagine they would have to have some drop capacity, since vehicle drop chutes exist in TacOps, under Advanced Rules.
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Halvagor

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Re: Moving Infantry
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2011, 12:05:45 AM »

Ah, I'd never noticed that before, thanks for pointing it out.
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Knightmare

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Re: Moving Infantry
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2011, 03:58:52 PM »

Well, that actually gives WiGEs a reason to exist.  Shame that vehicle bays aren't reported as having the same drop capabilities as 'Mech bays, however, which were I a rules lawyer I would use to justify preventing WiGEs from being able to execute a drop.

I'd imagine they would have to have some drop capacity, since vehicle drop chutes exist in TacOps, under Advanced Rules.

As mentioned somewhere else...it's a nice homage to Renegade Legion Gravtanks.

That said, this might not be an explanation but something neat to think about but...

In BattleTech fiction DropShips seem to be notoriously easy to destroy/knock out of the sky with only a handful of Aerospace Fighters, or destroyed from the inside out with only a satchel charge or OS SRM launcher.

That being said, it would make sense to split large infantry formations into much smaller pieces, and to provide almost every DropShip charged with disgorging ground forces some protection from enemy infantry. After all, most DropShips are poor anti-infantry platforms, and all it takes is a platoon of SRM-equipped infantry sending a few rockets into a DropShip's cargo bay or into its landing gear to really ruin a Dropper's whole day.

Lest not forget about those pesky Aerospace Fighters either...why risk losing a regiment's worth of infantry when a lance of Stuka's chew up your sole transport vessel?

I'll pass, and continue to divvy up my BPIs. Thank you very much.

At any rate, this is just a possible fictional explanation for a lack of full regimental-sized infantry transports. That, and like it was mentioned earlier, PBIs are often forced into coffin hotel-like living arrangements in space. Tough living = Angry Soldiers.  ;)
 
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