Topic: My anti-WoB rant (Read 3262 times)

lucho · « **on:** May 25, 2012, 09:15:11 PM »

Ok, I didn't want to derail the "Death of the TH" thread, so I'll put my rant here. Some of you are going to break out the pitchforks and flamethrowers, one or two might agree with me, that's how it goes

Quote from: Knightmare on May 25, 2012, 07:06:05 AM

The Schism kinda dumps that idea on its head.

As far as naming conventions & right to exist go, the WoB is pretty standard stuff.

They:
Have Religion
Have Bible
Have Purpose
Have Zero Moderates

Pretty cut and dry.

IMO, I think the only, perhaps, "Whaaa?!" moment is the initial knee jerk reaction to the dismantling of the Second Star League. Then again, most of us are moderates by default, far less likely to strap an improvised explosive to our chest - which a WoB agent would gladly do.

So it's not that off color or out of character if you dump the whole, "What would I have done" line of thinking.

As a published sociologist, I disagree with that viewpoint. Real life doesn't work that way; in fact it doesn't work anywhere except B-movies. Schisms and religious fundamentalism are always a result of someone manipulating others for personal ambition. Ok, we have that in this case (the Master/ the real Thomas Marik), but this brings my second point: trying to lay it down to religious kooks completely misses my point.

Some time back, I posted a topic about this at Solaris7. I consider the responses to it positive, but they also missed the points I made. They also wrote it off as "well, religious nutjobs are like that." No it's not, and it's completely beside the point.

Here are the arguments from that long-dead post, with some updated comments:

1) Battletech is a game about battlemechs, right? Why should nukes (and other WMDs and the warships that carry them, for that matter) be allowed to take center stage?
--Let me add to this that this is the argument by the PTB for arbitrarily removing warships from the game, but nukes and WMDs are different?

2) On the grand scale, Battletech is a game about war, empire, geopolitics, and warring dynasties. Not religious fundamentalism.
--Yes, there is religion in ComStar, but there is also some in the Vatican. Believing either organization is driven by it only indicates an over-exposure to Republican/religious right propaganda.

3) Focht was decribed as a convert to ComStar, a true believer. He killed Waterly because he felt that Waterly betrayed Comstar`s dream. Since when does a true believer secularize what he just fought for?
--While his belief in the Word of Blake is never clearly established outside of the BoK trilogy, Focht was an outsider. His influence didn't extend past the ComGuards. The only way he could have pulled off what he did is if you accept that he pulled off a coup de etat. Which is an entire can of worms by itself.

4)Everybody in ComStar toes the line... or else. ROM is very good at this. And yet the organization decides that anybody who dislikes the changes can simply leave? Oh, and it`s ok if you take some equipment with you. Am I the only one who finds this odd?
--Ok, this is the one that really got under my skin. Does everyone remember established canon? The Comstar Sourcebook, 20 year Update, just to name a couple? The intelligence agency that removed at least one Primus and was used by more than one Primus to cement power and eliminate opposition (including Waterly) suddenly goes passive and lets an outsider eliminate the Primus and dictate terms to the First Circuit? The organization that brutally enforces doctrinal purity lets this outsider secularize the order? ROM just turns passive and lets the reforms and defections happen?

5) After these questionable decisions ComStar just sits on it rear and lets the WOB build forces, seize Terra, and manipulate events in the Inner Sphere and Periphery? Focht and others bitch and moan about how bad the Blakist are, but do nothing? Not even when they obviously know what`s going on?
--Don't underestimate the importance of this one

All of this comes after the whole FedCom split, which was itself hard to swallow (somebody who just fought a major military campaign just passively lets his birthright be usurped? And then after fighting a brutal civil war to get it back, he quits?!?) I know that the idea was devised long ago by FASA, and has long been in the making. Many products have hinted at it. Nevertheless, the whole idea leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
--Yeah, yeah, I know: stupid pills and the needs of the plot. Even so, this is what we get? Maybe it's their way to get us to write more AUs

Ok, I've ranted enough, plus a bit more. I've got a couple of ideas for an AU on the topic, but let's start with this: no schism. ROM decides that Focht joins Waterly in 'retirement' and Demona Aziz becomes the next Primus.

Gabriel · « **Reply #1 on:** May 25, 2012, 10:03:02 PM »

Demona becomes Primus oh my god what do the other gargoyles have say about this.

Blacknova · « **Reply #2 on:** May 25, 2012, 10:04:28 PM »

Quote from: Gabriel on May 25, 2012, 10:03:02 PM

Demona becomes Primus oh my god what do the other gargoyles have say about this.

That's the funniest thing I have read in a while.

Gabriel · « **Reply #3 on:** May 25, 2012, 10:06:33 PM »

Thanks I get a good zinger every once in a while.

Knightmare · « **Reply #4 on:** May 25, 2012, 10:23:19 PM »

Quote from: lucho on May 25, 2012, 09:15:11 PM

As a published sociologist, I disagree with that viewpoint. Real life doesn't work that way; in fact it doesn't work anywhere except B-movies. Schisms and religious fundamentalism are always a result of someone manipulating others for personal ambition.

This is spot on, but my explanation is a gross generalized description of the Order. It speaks nothing to its leaders, participants, or guiding individuals. And keep in mind, for every guy pulling the strings there are a dozen or so poor slots willing to strap an improvised IED to their back. So as an explanation for the organization and the bulk of its membership, the description is applicable. You could easily swap "God is Great" for "Peace of Blake be with you." The end result is still the same.

Quote from: lucho on May 25, 2012, 09:15:11 PM

1) Battletech is a game about battlemechs, right? Why should nukes (and other WMDs and the warships that carry them, for that matter) be allowed to take center stage?
--Let me add to this that this is the argument by the PTB for arbitrarily removing warships from the game, but nukes and WMDs are different?

There's precedence here. They're called the First & Second Succession Wars. Nukes & WMDs were used (not detailed) heavily to create the Third Succession War setting the original game was based in. This time around they were used to reorient the game and drive the plot in the direction dictated by the Developers. Either way, this is an old trick. Nothing new here.

Quote from: lucho on May 25, 2012, 09:15:11 PM

2) On the grand scale, Battletech is a game about war, empire, geopolitics, and warring dynasties. Not religious fundamentalism.
--Yes, there is religion in ComStar, but there is also some in the Vatican. Believing either organization is driven by it only indicates an over-exposure to Republican/religious right propaganda.

The WoB is no more dedicated or fundamental in their drive than the Clans. Heck, if we're making comparisons the WoB has more in common with the Clans than they do with Inner Sphere characters/nations in both overall dedication and pan-fanaticism to their ideal (the DC comes close.)

And for the record the Jihad was not driven by religious fundamentalism. It was driven by an intense reaction after being denied their organization's objectives - joining the Second Star League, etc. Just like the DC's code of Bushido is a cultural glue helping to hold the DCMS and Combine society together, the Order's Word of Blake and religious trappings does the same.

I can not stress this last bit enough.

Quote from: lucho on May 25, 2012, 09:15:11 PM

3) Focht was decribed as a convert to ComStar, a true believer. He killed Waterly because he felt that Waterly betrayed Comstar`s dream. Since when does a true believer secularize what he just fought for?
--While his belief in the Word of Blake is never clearly established outside of the BoK trilogy, Focht was an outsider. His influence didn't extend past the ComGuards. The only way he could have pulled off what he did is if you accept that he pulled off a coup de etat. Which is an entire can of worms by itself.

Yea, I never really bought into that. Very good point.

Quote from: lucho on May 25, 2012, 09:15:11 PM

4)Everybody in ComStar toes the line... or else. ROM is very good at this. And yet the organization decides that anybody who dislikes the changes can simply leave? Oh, and it`s ok if you take some equipment with you. Am I the only one who finds this odd?
--Ok, this is the one that really got under my skin. Does everyone remember established canon? The Comstar Sourcebook, 20 year Update, just to name a couple? The intelligence agency that removed at least one Primus and was used by more than one Primus to cement power and eliminate opposition (including Waterly) suddenly goes passive and lets an outsider eliminate the Primus and dictate terms to the First Circuit? The organization that brutally enforces doctrinal purity lets this outsider secularize the order? ROM just turns passive and lets the reforms and defections happen?

Most of ROM defected to the Word, but enough stayed to provide marginal protection for the new ComStar and Focht's reforms. Personally, I don't think the split was provided enough detail. While Waterly's actions during Tukayyid may have left a bad taste for some of ComStar, I don't think it was justification enough for such a large % of the whole organization to just follow Focht and Mori.

Given the level of dedication and indoctrination most members are subjected to, I would have expected the reverse, with ComStar being the smaller of the two after the split.

Quote from: lucho on May 25, 2012, 09:15:11 PM

5) After these questionable decisions ComStar just sits on it rear and lets the WOB build forces, seize Terra, and manipulate events in the Inner Sphere and Periphery? Focht and others bitch and moan about how bad the Blakist are, but do nothing? Not even when they obviously know what`s going on?
--Don't underestimate the importance of this one

This one is pretty self explanatory, though I think TPTB's setup was kinda lame. It basically comes down to believing that any distraction besides the seizure of Terra was more important than Focht reclaiming the world immediately after its fall. While some of the events along the Clan front might have delayed the inevitable for a short time, IMO it shouldn't have been enough to stop it.

On the flip side, the continued defections and the shear number of sleeper agents in the organization meant that any ComStar counter-attack would have likely been a serious mess. Maybe not CASE White bad, but bad.

On the flip, flip side ComStar looks like an even bigger idiot because they knew how powerful Terra's manufacturing capabilities were.

Quote from: lucho on May 25, 2012, 09:15:11 PM

Ok, I've ranted enough, plus a bit more. I've got a couple of ideas for an AU on the topic, but let's start with this: no schism. ROM decides that Focht joins Waterly in 'retirement' and Demona Aziz becomes the next Primus.

I dig that. Make it happen.

Cestusrex · « **Reply #5 on:** May 26, 2012, 12:08:30 AM »

I agree with most of what you said but was completely confused by this.

Quote from: lucho on May 25, 2012, 09:15:11 PM

2) On the grand scale, Battletech is a game about war, empire, geopolitics, and warring dynasties. Not religious fundamentalism.
--Yes, there is religion in ComStar, but there is also some in the Vatican. Believing either organization is driven by it only indicates an over-exposure to Republican/religious right propaganda.

Are you implying that the Vatican is not driven by religion? I thought that was kind of the point of the Roman Catholic Church and the Holy See based in the Vatican. I mean I can see the point with ComStar, it was created as a supposedly neutral go-between organization that morphed into a quasi-religious order (still don't get why and how that happened) unlike the Catholic Church that was a religious organization that morphed into a political state with the creation of the Papel States; which it subsequently lost the last vestiages of when Italy unified under Victor Emmanuel I. The Church didn't get any territory to call its own again until Mussolini, of all freaking people, gave them the area that became known as the Vatican. But what do I know, I'm just an Republican, Southern Baptist, unpublished historian.

FirstStarLord · « **Reply #6 on:** May 26, 2012, 02:23:10 AM »

ComStar was turned into a tech cult due to the actions of Conrad Toyama, who the WoB revered enough to name a battlemech design after. Jerome Blake was a spiritual man, but there is little indication from any of the sources that he allowed that to govern much of his decision-making in ComStar's early years. In fact his actions tended to be quite practical in nature. Operation Silver Shield is a great example of this; originally he wanted to occupy the whole Terran Hegemony, but he accepted that with his resources he could only take Terra proper. He also built most of the corporate structure that made ComStar a financial powerhouse. While he also created ROM, he only envisioned it for internal security purposes, a force that reacted against threats as they emerged rather than an instigator of

Toyama on the other hand created much of the doctrine for ComStar as it first appeared in the Battletech universe. The ranks, the robes, the incantations, the religious dogma (ComStar was/is first and foremost a religion, albeit one heavily based upon idealized views of science and human unity deified rather than a god in any traditional sense, with Blake re-imagined as a prophet) are all his legacy. He turned ROM into a full-blown instrument of terror and repression against dissidents both inside the order and out. He also created the name ComStar for Blake while still a junior executive in the First Circuit, and approved the starburst insignia for the order as well.

I've often wondered though if the whole ComStar story arc was part of some greater conspiracy in the BT universe, one that dates back to at least the reign of Jonathan Cameron during the Star League era. It seems there is some force from that time forward pushing the political and social order ever more clearly into a new direction based around the hollowing out of the Great Houses and concrete political constructs. Devlin Stone's actions and the progression of the story through the Dark Age period seem to support elements of this, although it may be nothing more than wild speculation on my part.

lucho · « **Reply #7 on:** May 26, 2012, 10:20:05 AM »

@FirstStarLord: right. Jerome Blake was a visionary, perhaps, but he was above all else a bureaucrat who wanted to maintain a piece of his homeland (the TH); canon shows that he ran ComStar as a business, like you said, the religion is due to Toyama. It seems that the original writers based the chracter of Jerome Blake on an idealized version of Jack Welch. Hmm, Neutron Jack in the 31st century.... makes a twisted kind of sense

@knightmare:

Quote

There's precedence here. They're called the First & Second Succession Wars. Nukes & WMDs were used (not detailed) heavily to create the Third Succession War setting the original game was based in. This time around they were used to reorient the game and drive the plot in the direction dictated by the Developers. Either way, this is an old trick. Nothing new here.

That' s irrelevant. It's background material. I'm talking about actual gameplay. TPTB claim that allowing warships in the game detracts from big stompy robots, but allow nukes and other WMDs into gameplay? The double standard bugs me.

Quote

The WoB is no more dedicated or fundamental in their drive than the Clans. Heck, if we're making comparisons the WoB has more in common with the Clans than they do with Inner Sphere characters/nations in both overall dedication and pan-fanaticism to their ideal (the DC comes close.)

And for the record the Jihad was not driven by religious fundamentalism. It was driven by an intense reaction after being denied their organization's objectives - joining the Second Star League, etc. Just like the DC's code of Bushido is a cultural glue helping to hold the DCMS and Combine society together, the Order's Word of Blake and religious trappings does the same.

I can not stress this last bit enough.

Huh?? The WoB is presented as utterly fanatical, totally dedicated, even if they don't all work so well together (St.Jamais vs. Appolyon for instance). I can see parallels with the crusader clans, but not with the DC; Bushido and the Dictum Honorum are just rules for behavior.

The Jihad was very much driven by fundamentalism. The whole of the Blakist's reason for being was the fulfillment of Blake' s vision (as told by Toyama, yes, I know) through the First/Second/Third Transfer. When the Star League disbanded, they saw their chance at fulfillment snatched right out of their fingers, and reacted badly (epic temper tantrum might be a better description)

Quote

Most of ROM defected to the Word, but enough stayed to provide marginal protection for the new ComStar and Focht's reforms. Personally, I don't think the split was provided enough detail. While Waterly's actions during Tukayyid may have left a bad taste for some of ComStar, I don't think it was justification enough for such a large % of the whole organization to just follow Focht and Mori.

Given the level of dedication and indoctrination most members are subjected to, I would have expected the reverse, with ComStar being the smaller of the two after the split.

I think you' re missing my point here. Why would the organization in charge of keeping everyone in line and singing the same song even permit the reforms/schism to take place? Either Focht disappears (and is later reported to have slipped on a bar of soap

), or Demona Aziz disappears and the reforms go smoothly and nobody leaves to form the Word of Blake. ROM does not suddenly go passive-aggressive and let Focht secularize the order while secretly helping those who disagree with him. ROM would not leave and set up a new organization; they would clean up the one they have.

Quote

This one is pretty self explanatory, though I think TPTB's setup was kinda lame. It basically comes down to believing that any distraction besides the seizure of Terra was more important than Focht reclaiming the world immediately after its fall. While some of the events along the Clan front might have delayed the inevitable for a short time, IMO it shouldn't have been enough to stop it.

On the flip side, the continued defections and the shear number of sleeper agents in the organization meant that any ComStar counter-attack would have likely been a serious mess. Maybe not CASE White bad, but bad.

On the flip, flip side ComStar looks like an even bigger idiot because they knew how powerful Terra's manufacturing capabilities were.

Yes, TPTB' s explanation is lame. Focht opens up Terra' s warehouses and commissions new designs from Terran manufacturers, but says that Terra has only symbolic value? The only explanation that makes sense here is that Focht really is a true believer and is the sleeper agent working for the WoB (forget that brat Arthur Steiner-Davion. Focht is the Master' s protege)

Knightmare · « **Reply #8 on:** May 26, 2012, 06:38:48 PM »

Quote from: lucho on May 26, 2012, 10:20:05 AM

That' s irrelevant. It's background material. I'm talking about actual gameplay. TPTB claim that allowing warships in the game detracts from big stompy robots, but allow nukes and other WMDs into gameplay? The double standard bugs me.

Not true. WarShips are still playable units in BattleTech, as are nukes. However, after the Jihad neither are large components of the game universe. The Jihad returns the game setting back to "big stompy robots", but any scenario can be played with either.

Basically your complaint isn't about game play, but rather game setting. You don't approve the change. Right on. For the record, neither am I. For a long time I was S7's defacto Aerospace/WarShip guy. I'll miss WarShips in the post-Jihad era fiction, but I'll survive.

(Funnily enough the rules for Nuclear Weapons were detailed in a book that also provided stats for the very first WarShip...)

Quote from: lucho on May 26, 2012, 10:20:05 AM

Huh?? The WoB is presented as utterly fanatical, totally dedicated, even if they don't all work so well together (St.Jamais vs. Appolyon for instance). I can see parallels with the crusader clans, but not with the DC; Bushido and the Dictum Honorum are just rules for behavior.

I guess you've never heard of Kentares then...but, "utterly fanatical, totally dedicated" sounds like any DCMS MechWarrior to me.

As a sociologist you should know there's a blurry line between religion and rules for behavior, when rules for behavior are worshiped as a religion and are considered sacrosanct.

Fanaticism is fanaticism. Whether it's cloaked beneath the guise of an almighty super being, a totem, or a mantra the end result is still the same. Fanaticism.

Quote from: lucho on May 26, 2012, 10:20:05 AM

The whole of the Blakist's reason for being was the fulfillment of Blake' s vision (as told by Toyama, yes, I know) through the First/Second/Third Transfer. When the Star League disbanded, they saw their chance at fulfillment snatched right out of their fingers, and reacted badly (epic temper tantrum might be a better description)

96.7% sure I mentioned that. This "disappointment" is what started and drove the Jihad. The WoB's dedication to their religion (the fundamentalism you mentioned) is what sustained their effort. Religion wasn't the root cause any more than saying the Crusades were solely determined and executed by Christian religious beliefs..

Quote from: lucho on May 26, 2012, 10:20:05 AM

I think you' re missing my point here. Why would the organization in charge of keeping everyone in line and singing the same song even permit the reforms/schism to take place?

Percentage of new members could be a reason, though a weak one. However, ComStar relies on recruitment (it has had issues with this before.)

At any rate, depending on the amount of time spent with the Order, massive reforms for the "better" could/would be welcomed. This is probably why the Rank & File of ComStar (long used to living in fear of ROM) supported the Reforms. This is one possible reason. By the same token, ComStar is like any secret society insofar as the higher you rise in rank the more dedicated and fundamental the individual tends to be. This is why the WoB knew where all the bodies were buried after the Schism, but also why their population was smaller in size.

Like I said, I personally don't feel like the Schism was provided enough explanation or detail in explaining its execution. Old ComStar is just too complicated a beast to divide without an almost immediate bloody civil war.

Knightmare · « **Reply #9 on:** May 28, 2012, 04:36:09 PM »

On a side note. I'm digging this thread and some of the other new ones. Good conversations.

Dread Moores · « **Reply #10 on:** May 28, 2012, 09:30:26 PM »

Quote from: lucho on May 26, 2012, 10:20:05 AM

Huh?? The WoB is presented as utterly fanatical, totally dedicated, even if they don't all work so well together (St.Jamais vs. Appolyon for instance). I can see parallels with the crusader clans, but not with the DC; Bushido and the Dictum Honorum are just rules for behavior.

Portions of WoB are presented as utterly fanatical. There is a pretty strong tone throughout the entire Jihad that the Word is a multi-headed hydra...and no head agrees with the others or even knows they exist. It doesn't take long to look through the JHS series to find a number of examples of moderate folks who work with the Word for non-fanatical reasons. (Heck, it's one of the key reasons the Terrans supported the Word for a significant percentage of the war.) Whether or not you like this tone is something else entirely. But the tone is most definitely there. The Word is not united in purpose or philosophy at any significant level, outside of a small (comparatively) group of fanatics, such as Apollyon's crew. The very strong fractures and divisive nature of the organization is one of the key things that leads to their failure.

lucho · « **Reply #11 on:** May 28, 2012, 11:13:05 PM »

Dagnabit, Real Life gives me some grief, and I end up not being able to post for a few days

Quote

Not true. WarShips are still playable units in BattleTech, as are nukes. However, after the Jihad neither are large components of the game universe. The Jihad returns the game setting back to "big stompy robots", but any scenario can be played with either.
Basically your complaint isn't about game play, but rather game setting. You don't approve the change. Right on. For the record, neither am I. For a long time I was S7's defacto Aerospace/WarShip guy. I'll miss WarShips in the post-Jihad era fiction, but I'll survive.
(Funnily enough the rules for Nuclear Weapons were detailed in a book that also provided stats for the very first WarShip...)

Yes, Warships are playable, and my complaint is about the setting (you'll get no argument from me on that point), but the way TPTB are going about it comes across as a double standard. Returning the game to "big stompy robots" could have been accomplished better.

Quote

I guess you've never heard of Kentares then...but, "utterly fanatical, totally dedicated" sounds like any DCMS MechWarrior to me.
As a sociologist you should know there's a blurry line between religion and rules for behavior, when rules for behavior are worshiped as a religion and are considered sacrosanct.
Fanaticism is fanaticism. Whether it's cloaked beneath the guise of an almighty super being, a totem, or a mantra the end result is still the same. Fanaticism.

Two things here; let me deal with the second first, and the first second (heh). Yes, I know very well that the line between religion and codes of conduct is a fine one indeed; blurring that line results in what we (probably shouldn't) call ethics. With just the right touch, people can be (and have been, repeatedly) made to do literally anything, no matter how self-destructive.

Using Kentares as an example is a bad choice. The only fanatic there was Jinjiro, to whom we could arguably attribute the whole Kentares mess as extreme (and I mean extreme

) daddy issues. The rank and file was anything but fanatical: they hid civilians, committed seppuku; the entire DCMS had serious fallout from Kentares that cost them the war (from the original HKSB; TPTB haven't retconned this yet

). Not an example of fanaticism.

Quote

96.7% sure I mentioned that. This "disappointment" is what started and drove the Jihad. The WoB's dedication to their religion (the fundamentalism you mentioned) is what sustained their effort. Religion wasn't the root cause any more than saying the Crusades were solely determined and executed by Christian religious beliefs..

I think we're agreeing, but looking at this from different directions. Religion was the root cause in the sense that they felt that the Great Moment of FulfillmentTM was lost. Personally, I would say that they have an ideology, not religion, but that's just me (as portrayed, they sure act like republicans). Those who believe the strongest tend to have the most brittle of egos.

Quote

Percentage of new members could be a reason, though a weak one. However, ComStar relies on recruitment (it has had issues with this before.)
At any rate, depending on the amount of time spent with the Order, massive reforms for the "better" could/would be welcomed. This is probably why the Rank & File of ComStar (long used to living in fear of ROM) supported the Reforms. This is one possible reason. By the same token, ComStar is like any secret society insofar as the higher you rise in rank the more dedicated and fundamental the individual tends to be. This is why the WoB knew where all the bodies were buried after the Schism, but also why their population was smaller in size.
Like I said, I personally don't feel like the Schism was provided enough explanation or detail in explaining its execution. Old ComStar is just too complicated a beast to divide without an almost immediate bloody civil war.

I was talking about ROM, not ComStar as a whole. ROM is, by definition, the most hardcore dedicated of the order. They are the group that makes things happen... or not. It doesn't matter a bit what the rank and file of ComStar think; unless you're on the First Circuit (and even then), you do what you're told, or else. My original question still stands: why would ROM suddenly go passive, abandoning its very specific duty of enforcing doctrinal purity, when an outsider tosses that doctrine?

Past that, I agree 110% that the schism was glossed over. Even if it were adequately explained, there's enough storytelling material for a long time.

Quote from: Knightmare on May 28, 2012, 04:36:09 PM

On a side note. I'm digging this thread and some of the other new ones. Good conversations.

Agreed. I just wish I had more time to post, to say nothing of my writing (I never did get back to Arda, and now I'm outlining a crossover between Btech and Cien AÃ±os de Soledad)

Quote from: Dread Moores on May 28, 2012, 09:30:26 PM

Portions of WoB are presented as utterly fanatical. There is a pretty strong tone throughout the entire Jihad that the Word is a multi-headed hydra...and no head agrees with the others or even knows they exist. It doesn't take long to look through the JHS series to find a number of examples of moderate folks who work with the Word for non-fanatical reasons. (Heck, it's one of the key reasons the Terrans supported the Word for a significant percentage of the war.) Whether or not you like this tone is something else entirely. But the tone is most definitely there. The Word is not united in purpose or philosophy at any significant level, outside of a small (comparatively) group of fanatics, such as Apollyon's crew. The very strong fractures and divisive nature of the organization is one of the key things that leads to their failure.

just like the GOP. Not all of them are Tea Party drones; some of them can actually see what right in front of them, and a few can even think for themselves.

Knightmare · « **Reply #12 on:** May 28, 2012, 11:40:36 PM »

Quote from: lucho on May 28, 2012, 11:13:05 PM

Yes, Warships are playable, and my complaint is about the setting (you'll get no argument from me on that point), but the way TPTB are going about it comes across as a double standard. Returning the game to "big stompy robots" could have been accomplished better.

Guess we'll never know. Still, if WarShips were gonna go out with a "bang," the Jihad certainly provided fans with enough (and varied) scenario material to last a while.

Quote from: lucho on May 28, 2012, 11:13:05 PM

Using Kentares as an example is a bad choice. The only fanatic there was Jinjiro, to whom we could arguably attribute the whole Kentares mess as extreme (and I mean extreme ) daddy issues. The rank and file was anything but fanatical: they hid civilians, committed seppuku; the entire DCMS had serious fallout from Kentares that cost them the war.

See, I think it's a great example. You've mentioned the exceptions here, not the rule. The rule is that 99.9% of the DCMS on planet did carry out the order without second thought. MechWarriors disgusted with their actions did commit seppuku, but only after they murdered millions of civilians. By which point, the deal was done.

It doesn't matter that the DCMS had fallout from Kentares, or that it cost them the war. We're not talking about cause and effect here, we're talking about a state of being. The fanaticism of the DCMS is a state of being, one that allowed a Kentares Massacre to occur, just like the Smoke Jaguars Massacre at Edo, and so on.

Quote from: lucho on May 28, 2012, 11:13:05 PM

Personally, I would say that they have an ideology, not religion, but that's just me (as portrayed, they sure act like republicans). Those who believe the strongest tend to have the most brittle of egos.

I guess to comes down to verbiage. The WoB (and old ComStar) uses certain key words associated with a religion, rather than an ideology - with one of the key indicators resting in their belief of the supernatural/higher power. Then again, the only real difference between a spiritual ideology and a religion (legally at any rate), tends to revolve around questions of physical organization and legal recognition. (I happen to have quite a few degrees myself - one being in Philosophy and most recently in Communication. I've been published in both.)

So the argument of determining whether or not the WoB is an ideology or a religion is kind of a moot point. Personally, I'd say the WoB was a religion with conflicting ideologies. Unlike the varied Protestant faiths for example, the various WoB factions stuck together rather than going their separate ways. A lot of what Dread mentioned stems from sticking together: Too many hens in the hen house.

Combative religious ideologies & physical goals = institutional conflict.

Quote from: lucho on May 28, 2012, 11:13:05 PM

I was talking about ROM, not ComStar as a whole. ROM is, by definition, the most hardcore dedicated of the order. They are the group that makes things happen... or not. It doesn't matter a bit what the rank and file of ComStar think; unless you're on the First Circuit (and even then), you do what you're told, or else. My original question still stands: why would ROM suddenly go passive, abandoning its very specific duty of enforcing doctrinal purity, when an outsider tosses that doctrine?

Good question. I have no idea why ROM jumped ship or helped form a splinter group calling itself the Word of Blake. Unless the ComGuard was shooting ROM agents who refused to go along with the new regime...

Halvagor · « **Reply #13 on:** May 29, 2012, 02:00:42 PM »

My thought on ROM's passivity is somewhat complex.

1) They may not have liked the way Waterly was taking the organization. She clearly never understood anything of what Tiepolo was doing, and he was a much more subtle thinker than she.

2) ROM may be responsible for ensuring "doctrinal purity" but they also, based on comments of the First Circuit in the Warrior series, recruited a lot of sociopaths and other undesirables more for their willingness to carry out orders than for an ability to judge the correctness of those orders.

3) ROM itself may well have been split on the issue, and decided to keep a foot in both camps until they could decide which they wanted to support. The fact that we know an outsized portion of ROM agents went with the WoBblies doesn't necessarily counteract that; it's possible the split was between the more numerous ROM agents (who'd never known anything other than Waterly's insanity) and the older ones in higher positions (who may have known enough about ComStar's history to understand how Toyama had corrupted "the sainted Blake's" ideals).

4) ComStar, for all that its sourcebooks (written by either ComStar itself or the none-too-friendly Wolf's Dragoons, generally, neither an unbiased source), claims to have had a significant degree of doctrinal purity, doesn't seem to display it in the fiction. Which brings up the question of how much stock to put into the sourcebooks, since they, as is traditional in BT, are subject to in-universe biases and tampering.

Knightmare · « **Reply #14 on:** May 29, 2012, 02:19:02 PM »

Good points, though I'd add that TPTB more or less stated that sourcebooks trump novel fiction in the hierarchy of canonized "facts."

Which makes for some interesting comparisons. Does ROM run strict with doctrinal purity as a matter of course, or only when it suits a particular need? ROM as an organization could be far more morally flexible than the sourcebooks allude, despite their claim to the contrary. Makes me wonder what kind of institutional memory ROM possesses. It's not impossible to impart a sense of moral flexibility in a fanatical organization, but not easy either...

Reminds me of a movie quote.

"The marines are gitmo at fanatical."
"Fanatical about what?"
"About being marines."

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