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Author Topic: My problem with the way they make LAM'S  (Read 3942 times)

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Swords of Fire

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Re: My problem with the way they make LAM'S
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2012, 07:46:27 AM »

Well... I was surprised to see that while the Spectral LAM conversion equipment takes up mass(10 % of the Spectral LAM's mass) it isn't shown on the Spectral LAM's recordsheet.

So my personal theory why the Spectral LAM's cannot use lighter,but, and this is important, also bulkier, equipment(Endo Steel Chassis, Ferro-Fibrous Armor, XL Fusion Engine, XL Gyroscope) is as follows:
The LAM conversion equipment also takes up space on the Spectral LAM(similar to the Standard Fusion Engine) thus limiting the space available for other components and prohibiting the use of the lighter but also bulkier equipment like Endo Steel Chassis, Ferro-Fibrous Armor, XL Fusion Engine, XL Gyroscope etc.

Besides that I agree with Dread Moores in that LAM's using all that lighter equipment would indeed be pretty ridiculous.

I must admit my theory is along the same lines. My suspicion is that owing to the need to effectively rearrange the LAM for each transformation, i.e. fold the wings in Mech form, fold up arms and legs during flight that there is a need to conserve interior space to allow for such transformations which would discourage the use of bulky materials. I'd also suspect that there may be a design decision there to use the same old materials on at least the first generation of new LAMs to avoid the need to redesign the gyroscope to support multiple transformations with varying centres of gravity. I'd hate to be the engineer tasked with working out how to balance a mech that spends most of the time standing up and occasionally bends 90 degrees at the waist for extended periods of time.
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Re: My problem with the way they make LAM'S
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2012, 10:26:19 AM »

That's a good point. LAMs might just be radical, or complicated enough to warrant the reusing of standard "working" components over something more experimental just to get them into the field. Why mess with something that works right? At least to start anyway...

Especially with LAMs...
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Red Pins

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Re: My problem with the way they make LAM'S
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2012, 10:45:07 AM »

...Talk about irony,  I'm going through the final look-over for Permanent Air-Mechs.  Endo-steel and XL engines are allowed, there's a new movement type called Nape-of-the-Earth, oversize PAMs between 60-75 tons, PSRs are required before moving at (x3) movement...  Oh, 5% and a single crit are needed for avionics in Light and Mediums, or 10% and 2 crits for Heavies.

Ironically, they have to land every Turn.
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Gabriel

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Re: My problem with the way they make LAM'S
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2012, 01:17:09 AM »

Hey I was thinking something experimental be used in Lam's. Because come on with everything else the Wobies used was radical.
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Swords of Fire

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Re: My problem with the way they make LAM'S
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2012, 02:45:44 AM »

...Talk about irony,  I'm going through the final look-over for Permanent Air-Mechs.  Endo-steel and XL engines are allowed, there's a new movement type called Nape-of-the-Earth, oversize PAMs between 60-75 tons, PSRs are required before moving at (x3) movement...  Oh, 5% and a single crit are needed for avionics in Light and Mediums, or 10% and 2 crits for Heavies.

Ironically, they have to land every Turn.

I would have thought that was the direction TPTB are going with the Partial Wing technology. Because logically you have to have a full wing for there to be a partial wing if only for comparisons sake.
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Do not discount the strength of belief and individual will. The strongest blade can be shattered by persistence and the knowledge that the actions of one can cause most severe damage.

Things learnt from Strategy Games:
Economy means everything, 110 villagers can support a stronger army than 50.

The strongest economy means nothing if you cannot deal with the prick with horse archers who keeps on killing your villagers.

Dread Moores

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Re: My problem with the way they make LAM'S
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2012, 03:28:02 AM »

Hey I was thinking something experimental be used in Lam's. Because come on with everything else the Wobies used was radical.

Something experimental was used in them. LAMs.
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Gabriel

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Re: My problem with the way they make LAM'S
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2012, 05:12:30 AM »

I meant some type of tech.  :)
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Gabriel

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Re: My problem with the way they make LAM'S
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2012, 02:40:44 PM »

Hi I was just looking over tech when I realized something. If Star League Lams could not use Star League Endo Steel why cannot the Spectral Lams use Clan Endo Steel it is much less bulkier. After all they can use Clan Lasers and Heat sinks.
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Will of Iron,Nerves of Steel,Heart of Gold,Balls of Brass... No wonder I set off metal detectors.Death or Compliance now that's not to much to ask for,is it?

Dread Moores

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Re: My problem with the way they make LAM'S
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2012, 04:07:38 PM »

Hi I was just looking over tech when I realized something. If Star League Lams could not use Star League Endo Steel why cannot the Spectral Lams use Clan Endo Steel it is much less bulkier. After all they can use Clan Lasers and Heat sinks.

Likely for the same reasons that they can't use IS endo steel. Something about that type of structure (fluff side, not critical slot requirements) interferes with the transformation process.
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JPArbiter

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Re: My problem with the way they make LAM'S
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2012, 04:36:45 PM »

by not allowing LAMs to incorporate most advanced construction materiel is a game mechanic control  I do not know how many people were around back then, but I have seen and played with the ORIGINAL LAM rules way back when.  Trust me, a Victor LAM was nothing to sneeze at.

by time the MK II LAM construction rules came about that capped LAMs at 55 tons, and it was assumed (but never explicitly stated) that you could use Endo Steel, Ferro Fib, and XL Engines in building your LAMs even with the 55 ton cap, you could create some battlemechs that were wicked little gunships, moving as fast as a Hermes, and packing as much firepower as a crusader.

given no one really gives a damn about balancing BV with pilot skills, and the problem only exacerbated itself as you had unhittable gunships that could hit you every time.  when the only way to counter something in a game is to use that same something and hope the dice are on your side, something is inherently wrong with the mechanic.

Now Catalyst compromised in three key areas as far as LAM construction that need to be mentioned.

1st is Double Heat Sinks.  without double heat sinks, LAMs are heat pumps that will lose their utility after one air mech super move and three laser strike.  at that point you either had to compromise on armor (which the cannon LAMs do) or firepower to keep the machines effective.

2nd is Composite internal structure.  facts are facts, this would make any armor breach nearly catastrophic, but you save 5% of the LAMs total weight, at the very least making up for the mass lost to conversion equipment.  since LAMs will now and forever be experimental equipment, that is not too far out of the way to go.

3rd is clan technology- the Spectral/Celestial LAMs prove this.  Min-Maxers who absolutely need their toys can use clan tech on LAMs, provided they are willing to pay through the nose in BV.  you will get that extra edge in range and firepower for less weight, whats not to love?
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Dragon Cat

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Re: My problem with the way they make LAM'S
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2012, 04:36:53 PM »

It doesn't say anything about Composite Structures IIRC which does give a little wiggle room

LAMS are historically fragile so they wouldn't be too hard done by with composites
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Really, as long as there is an unbroken line of people calling themselves "Clan Nova Cat," it doesn't really matter to me if they're still using Iron Wombs or not. They may be dead as a faction, but as a people they still exist. It's not uncommon in the real world, after all.

JPArbiter

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Re: My problem with the way they make LAM'S
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2012, 04:49:05 PM »

It doesn't say anything about Composite Structures IIRC which does give a little wiggle room

LAMS are historically fragile so they wouldn't be too hard done by with composites

two LAM Variants in RS3085U use composite structure and rules previously leaked by the Lord of Nukes himself basically stated

[paraphrase] LAMs may not use any engine, gyro, chassis or armor that requires additional critical spaces to be allocated on the record sheet.[/paraphrase]

you can use compact engines or gyros though :P
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Dragon Cat

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Re: My problem with the way they make LAM'S
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2012, 05:00:23 PM »

I thought that just couldn't remember for sure
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Really, as long as there is an unbroken line of people calling themselves "Clan Nova Cat," it doesn't really matter to me if they're still using Iron Wombs or not. They may be dead as a faction, but as a people they still exist. It's not uncommon in the real world, after all.

Gabriel

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Re: My problem with the way they make LAM'S
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2012, 05:20:42 PM »

Hmm I have to get my paws on that.
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MadCapellan

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Re: My problem with the way they make LAM'S
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2012, 08:41:15 PM »

The basic explanation I've always got from Catalyst's higher-ups was that anything that was so bulky as to take-up crits/appear in more than one location would inhibit conversion.  How can the torso fold and reposition if the engine runs through all three locations, for example?  It's a sensible assessment.  You could argue that a LAM with all it's Endo slots in one side torso doesn't split it across multiple locations, but the way Endo and Ferro crits are assigned has always been an abstraction of how bulky it is overall, and such a layout wouldn't really mean you've got a left torso mass resevoir.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 08:35:57 AM by MadCapellan »
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