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Author Topic: NEWSFLASH: Taurians Still Had Fleet Until 1st Succession War!  (Read 3349 times)

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masterarminas

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NEWSFLASH: Taurians Still Had Fleet Until 1st Succession War!
« on: September 29, 2011, 12:36:37 PM »

Holy mother of God!  Page 44 of H:RW, on the before-and-after, it shows 127 WarShips in 2575 and NINE (9!) WarShips in 2600--years after the conclusion of the War!

Further, the fluff text for the Concordat says (on page 281) the following:

Quote
No more Concordats were built after war's end, but the last few survived until the First Succession War.

The emphasis is mine.

 :o

Now, my question is, how does this square with previous canon that said the Taurian's weren't allowed WarShips?  How does this fit into the Shattered Dawn universe? 

Oh, and just for my own curiousity, how did the Taurians officially lose those ships in the 1st Succession War:  a War in which they did not (according to canon) participate?  Something's not right here.

MA
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 12:37:52 PM by masterarminas »
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Halvagor

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Re: NEWSFLASH: Taurians Still Had Fleet Until 1st Succession War!
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2011, 01:03:22 PM »

The same way they don't officially have the TCS Vandenberg floating around in space in the 3050s & 3060s. 

Falsify production & loss records, and it'd be pretty easy to fool the Star League into thinking all the ships were destroyed, leaving the ~9 or so that the Concordat was listed as having at the end of the RW.  The information presented in H:RW wasn't necessarily known to the Star League at the time. 

As for the loss of the WarShips, it could have been maintenance rather than combat which did in the majority of the remaning Taurian ships, leaving only the essentially-useless Vandenberg worth calling a "ship".  Plus, if they had to keep their warships secret, opportunities for training the crew properly would be very limited, making what few training operations they did perform that much more dangerous, and thus more likely to result in the accidental loss of the ship.

Or we could just point to this as one more inconsistency in H:RW.  YMMV.
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masterarminas

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Re: NEWSFLASH: Taurians Still Had Fleet Until 1st Succession War!
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2011, 01:09:12 PM »

I could go with that, if the text said they were lost during the Star League era.  But they lasted until the 1st Succession War (or at least some Concordats did, and Vandenberg  :( ).  After the redeployment of the SLDF to fight Amaris, and their Exodus, there was really no longer any reason to hide them.  The Successor States weren't interested in the Periphery, not when they had far jucier former Terran Hegemony worlds to fight over.

Right?

MA
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Halvagor

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Re: NEWSFLASH: Taurians Still Had Fleet Until 1st Succession War!
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2011, 02:05:16 PM »

That's certainly an argument, yes.  But perhaps the Taurians wanted to keep them hidden for either countering what they always believe is the inevitable Davion invasion, or to spearhead their eventually triumphal reconquest of the territory they lost in the RW.  The sudden appearance of unknown Taurian warships would be a benefit to either of those circumstances.

And while "the last few survived until the First Succession War" still doesn't mean that all 9 ships survived until then.  Consider, the Periphery states were used more for their raw materials than their industry, so it's possible the Taruians actually had to import the parts and equipment from the Inner Sphere to keep their ships operational (even if on the black market to avoid going public with their fleet), then the First Succession War would have destroyed the factories which made those parts, causing the rapid downward-spiral of the Taurian Fleet even without combat losses.

Or the Taurians did go public with their tiny fleet, but no one else cared and we're changing a little history. 
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lrose

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Re: NEWSFLASH: Taurians Still Had Fleet Until 1st Succession War!
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2011, 02:45:52 PM »

I'm not really what to make of this entry (or that the MOC had 2 warships in 2600 or that the MOC and TC had any remaining mech regiments- I always figured they were either destroyed or disbanded after the war- especially if you read the unit histories which mention just about every regiment in the TDF being formed during the Uprisings or the SW era.). 

While it is likely that the Concordats served in the TDF it is possible that they were captured ships used by the AFFS and were destroyed during the 1st SW in battles with the CC and DC. 

As for what this does for SD- not much- I was going to give the TDF a fleet of ships that survived the war and been hidden away- this only makes it easier to justify that position and to allow for the inclusion of more ships in the fleet. 

Keep in mind we already know that the TDF deployed warships during the Uprisings- they had 4 Lola IIs that they somehow managed to acquire.  (only 3 of which were specifically mentioned as being destroyed).  It is likely that many of the TDF warships could have been destroyed during the Uprisings.  As for the survivors - as Halvagor said they probably bit it more due to maintenance issues then combat damage.
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Halvagor

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Re: NEWSFLASH: Taurians Still Had Fleet Until 1st Succession War!
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2011, 03:09:57 PM »

For the Uprisings, I always took the position that if the Amaris family could provide 40 Divisions worth of BattleMechs (between 120 and 240 BattleMech regiments), then the Rim Worlds could probably be relied upon to provide a number of WarShips, as well.  Whether these were merely lots of Pintos or more advanced designs is another story, but if the Rim Worlds had an unexpected Dart-class cruiser 50 years after the last one was thought destroyed and the Taurians had Lola IIs, there is clearly room for a lot of warships to appear.

Of the 9 surviving Taurian warships, the Vandenberg seems one, and the Dart-class was thought extinct after SLS Gettysburg destroyed the last in the Vandenberg revolt of 2722, so another of the 9 survivors was likely a Dart, which clearly did not live to see the First Succession War.
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Dread Moores

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Re: NEWSFLASH: Taurians Still Had Fleet Until 1st Succession War!
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2011, 03:10:55 PM »

Oh, and just for my own curiousity, how did the Taurians officially lose those ships in the 1st Succession War:  a War in which they did not (according to canon) participate?  Something's not right here.

MA

Like others mentioned, lack of maintenance. The Taurians don't have a WarShip yard to maintain them, or construct new ones. And yards capable of doing so are not an easy thing to produce, judging by the lack of replacements for lost WarShip yards. Additionally, with the Taurians focus on colonization, I could see those ships being stripped down for parts to fund colony fleets.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 03:14:58 PM by Dread Moores »
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Takiro

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Re: NEWSFLASH: Taurians Still Had Fleet Until 1st Succession War!
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2011, 04:16:08 PM »

Yeah I guess it is like the Iranian Air Force after the fall of the Shah. The US stopped supplying parts and without proper maintenance their high tech fighter jets quickly became inoperable.

The Reunification War gutted Taurian industry and the Star League was very careful on what they rebuilt. We know this from canon texts. Thus maintaining any fleet would be extremely difficult for the Concordat.

The Periphery as envisioned by Irose for BTSD already had a small hidden fleet of warships. The Taurians in particular had some.

As to what happened to any surviving ships in canon there is three possibilities.
1. They were mothballed somewhere and are still there.
2. Were gradually scrapped for parts during the Succession Wars,
3. Destroyed in war.

The Concordat fought two significant conflicts about the time of the 1st Succession War. One was the Periphery Uprising were "rebels" could have seized some of these vessels for use against the SLDF. Two was the brief border war that erupted between the Magistracy and Concordat in 2812. Fought over worlds like Detroit it wasn't a glorious conflict but it could have claimed the last of these relics.

Last but not least ComStar is watching during the Succession Wars for lostech like warship. See the Tirpitz Incident. If they found out I'm sure they screwed with any remaining warships.
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CJvR

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Re: NEWSFLASH: Taurians Still Had Fleet Until 1st Succession War!
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2011, 11:37:53 AM »

Although rarely mentioned I suspect the increasingly desperate SS threw a few damaging raids at the TC, having those industries and a badly chewed up military wouldn't have been a good combination.
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