OBT Forum

And Hellion, that's one point where you and I will have a disagreement.

We don't disagree, I just summed it up too quickly.
I wanted to say that at the time the ComGuards were created, their combined-arms units weren't designed against the Clans but against the biased House units.
Against the Clans, they were also quite efficient but they were not specifically designed for it.

Quote from: Ice Hellion on March 22, 2012, 02:46:30 PM

Against the Clans, they were also quite efficient but they were not specifically designed for it.

Post Tukayyid, they most certainly were designed primarily for anti-Clan operations. The ComGuard pre and post Tukayyid are two completely different beasts. I prefer to ignore the former, as really...they weren't used or in any way having a major body of work to study (we don't even have much of an idea what they looked like pre-Tukayyid, short of "they guarded stuff and killed some pirates").

That just about sums it up. Then again, what more do you need? Clearly they were slapped together for Tukayyid and even afterwards, I didn't see much in the way of major modification after Tukayyid (outside of possible Level II changes) other than to operate in consistently larger Levels and better (anti-Clan) training.

Fun (worthless) question: If the ComGuards were deployed originally to protect ComStar's HPGs, after Tukayyid, who took up the job? The same folks who guarded the HPGs before the ComGuards?

Clearly the ComGuards as a garrison/protection force for the HPGs was just an excuse to deploy themselves throughout the Inner Sphere quietly and without showcasing its full size.

The intelligence apparatuses of the Great Houses really really stink. 

An indicator why ComStar began to revive 'Mech production. The fiction states renewed manufacture was in response to the hideous losses suffered on Tukayyid, but given that their Terran BattleMech caches were supposedly dwindling as well in response to the recovery effort I'm starting to wonder if "post-Tukayyid repair" also meant refitting the Divisions with more 'Mechs...

Food for thought. 

I've always found the "hideous losses on Tukayyid" to be an interesting assertion, given that throughout the Succession Wars many units rebuilt their own shattered 'Mechs after salvaging them from the battlefield.

But are we sure it is 'Mechs we are talking about?
It could be 'MechWarriors.

Fun (worthless) question: If the ComGuards were deployed originally to protect ComStar's HPGs, after Tukayyid, who took up the job?

I have doubts about this deployment prior to Tukayyid as in Wolves on the Borders, there were only infantry forces to protect the HPG from the raid.

Plot device aside, I can only conclude that perhaps ComStar either lacked the ability or infrastructure to make good on the Clan salvage they garnered at Tukayyid, or didn't have the technical resources in place to quickly handle the repair/salvage overload. Personally, I think both have merit. Pre-Tukayyid, the ComGuard was a collection of small, isolated, relatively inactive garrison detachments. Outside of some basic maintenance items, ComGuard detachments were probably very self-sufficient. (Could go a long way to explaining in part a way ComStar was able to obfuscate the size of their military.) ComStar certainly didn't boast centuries of experience in fighting large Succession War-type engagements and then partaking in the salvage recovery/rebuild effort & culture.
 
You have to wonder how much of a shock Tuakyyid was to the ComGuard establishment across the board.

It absolutely was.

You can boil this all down to its most basic issue though. BT is predicated on the concept that in a "modern" society, massive amounts of knowledge can be lost. This crops up again and again, even with ComStar. ComStar forgets about the Royals (despite having Terra, the graveyards, and all the remaining SLDF data networks). ComStar forgets about pieces of advanced tech that existed in the Star League, but apparently stopped afterwards. The Houses forget so much (up to and including the ridiculous thing about forgetting how to make water filtration systems). ComStar forgetting logistics? Yeah, that's probably one of the things that stretches credibility the least.

If the average ComGuard person served for 30 years, the ComGuards would require only ~4% replacements per year (the extra allows for people leaving early or dying in accidents).  At that rate, it would take 8 years (until 3060) merely to replace the fatalities from Tukayyid.

That sounds more than adequate for a given period of time to replenish losses. Couple a lifetime service commitment (which hasn't been modified for the ComGuard as far as I know), with a significantly (by BattleTech standards) reduced recruit pool, plus new security concerns in light of the Schism and I'm pretty surprised the ComGuard's made any real headway redressing their manpower needs.

Then again, given how the ComGuard simply reorganized their army formations and garrison duties after losing the League and Confederation garrison posts, I have to check, but I don't think the ComGuard ever made good on the losses they sustained at Tukayyid. Material losses maybe, by shuffling around old equipment and filling in the small gaps with new, but I have serious doubts (without looking at the sourcebooks) they were ever able to recoup.

I also question the ComStar's capacity to supply new material goods to the Guards post-Tukayyid. Unless Terra was manufacturing goods in excess to available users and the Word of Blake just inherited a ton of material (doubtful, since the size of the WoB was purposefully obfuscated and surprised even ComStar), then the Terran manufacturing machine was not operating at even half speed post-Tukayyid for even a couple of years. (Say 6 year before ComStar loses Terra 3052-3058, subtract two years for refurbishment of mothballed factories, and it's still 4~ years of intense manufacturing.) Especially, given what we've seen Terra capable of doing during the Jihad, it leads me to believe in the possibility that either the Word of Blake inherited some serious stores when they took Terra, or the real brake to the ComGuard's recovery was manpower.

Not counting the Shadow Divisions, the WoB doubled the number of line Divisions and expanded the Protectorate Militias with locally manufacturing equipment. The Protectorate Divisions were created mostly after the start of the Jihad, so from 3067-3081, while the line Divisions were doubled from 3058-3067 - less than a decade. Even the Shadow Divisions benefited from Terran manufacturing, so the number of new divisions and manufactured material could conservatively be placed somewhere in the 30+ mark. Even averaging the creation of two divisions a year and replacement parts (which we know didn't happen), that's more than enough to have rebuilt the ComGuard to their pre-Tukayyid size. Again, it "seems" like manpower is the deciding factor.

This is funny because the WoB (for the most part) recruitment pool was "hindered" by the same physical limitations as ComStar. 

So a couple of possibilities. One, ComStar started the Terran manufacturing ball rolling, but didn't get to enjoy the fruits of their labor when they lost Terra in 3058. This idea might be supported by the notion that ComStar's new Rasalhague factories were able to help resupply the existing ComGuard, but not increase its overall size. ComStar was forced to purchase material from around the Inner Sphere just to supplement the 2-3 factories in the Republic. Given the situation post-3058, this wasn't too different from the six years post-Tukayyid time period while Terra was under their control. Before 3058 and after 3058, the ComGuard was saddled with the same material/recovery needs (only exacerbated a little bit more by the FedCom Civil War), with the primary difference being ownership of Terra. So, as they say, something is rotten in Denmark.

Either Terra wasn't producing, or ComStar couldn't find recruits, or ComStar didn't exert real effort in rebuilding after Tukayyid, or Focht is an idiot, or any combination thereof.
 

On the other hand, however, we've seen that a number of ComGuard personnel, especially senior officers, were refugees from House militaries -- Focht wasn't the only one, and Focht had had fifteen or twenty years to remake the ComGuards in light of his long service as Freddie Steiner, though it is debatable that he had the desire to do so, or a reason to bring his knowledge to the ComGuards, even though such is exactly why Waterly desired a truly competent military person to head the ComGuards -- which Teddy Kurita happily supplied.

Too true. I mentioned Focht is an idiot, but what that statement reflects is an inept officer's corp. Honestly, I lean more towards ComStar not exerting real effort to rebuild the ComGuards after Tukayyid. By ComStar, I mean the First Circuit.

It would have been in the First Circuit's best interest to maintain, in decent status, the post-Tukayyid ComGuards, but not make good or serious headway against their material losses (even rationalizing it in face of the % salvaged?...). In light of the Schism, rebuilding the ComGuards' manpower would have been hideously and painstakingly time consuming. Fleshing out loyal recruits from the WoB plants would diminish an already small recruitment pool, so sending Terran factories into overdrive to produce usable equipment for a future army of loyal recruits makes sense, but could have been akin to knowingly arming your enemy given the Guards' defection rate. Personally, if this were true, it was a monster mistake. Then again, hindsight is 20/20.

So it's possible the First Circuit declined to produce the massive amounts of new equipment to make good on the losses sustained at Tukayyid, and instead simply increased the manufacture of replacement components and repair equipment. Given the security issues in light of the Schism, I don't really see the First Circuit in a hurry to (re)expand the Guard to its previous size. Either way, increasing component production would have primed Terra's factories for the WoB take-over, and explain some of their massive decade-long expansion. If Terra was primed for intense manufacture, then the Word didn't lose as much time in the conversion process.

Food for thought...

Knight:  Agreed all along, and I'll use this opportunity to say that the reason I don't like anything in BT post-Clan Invasion is because either too many people are idiots or else no one can do math.  TPTB clearly invent stuff out of whole cloth and contradict prior sourcebooks because they failed to plan the universe out in advance. [/rant]

Ice:  I think it's pretty clear that ComStar (read: the First Circuit) never thought its troops would become a field army.  At her least-in-touch-with-reality, Waterly only expected the ComGuards forces on each planet would have to conquer that one planet, and they'd already have all the local knowledge (and skill) they'd need; it would be the 2766 Uprisings all over again, but this time with a believable explanation for its success.

The idea that the ComGuards would ever become a true field army would have been ridiculous even to Focht in 3049.  Possibly even as late as 3051, though in the Blood of Kerensky books he clearly advocates throwing in with the FedCom/Draconis forces early on.  But the ComGuards clearly lacked the logistical tail necessary to maintain a true field army, which is why they have to pour money and effort into building bases against the Clans rather than rebuilding the ComGuards post-Tukayyid.  Their personnel losses would have been reduced by people returning to active duty from the hospital, which seems to account for the majority of ComGuard growth between the end of Tukayyid and the fall of Terra.  Or rather, as FM: ComStar says 40% died at Tukayyid and in 3062 the ComGuard is at 60% of its pre-Tukayyid strength, whatever recruitment did happen only replaced personnel lost to the Schism and permanent disability from wounds, with the rest accounted for under people recovered from wounds.