Topic: Questions About Revival Trials (Read 1183 times)

masterarminas · « **on:** June 27, 2015, 11:15:57 PM »

Okay. I've just (finally) gotten the PDF of Revival Trials and sat down and read it from cover to cover. And I've got a few questions for you good folks.

First off, other than being a plot point, what was the deal with the other Khans laughing (literally laughing) at N'Buta in the opening fiction? As written, the entire thing seems . . . implausible. Even the smaller Clans (who had to know that they had zero chance of being included in the Invasion if slots were selected via Trial) just outright rejected the idea that every Clan should be involved from the first?

According to my read of the text, only Ulric Kerensky was silent during this. The Scorpion Khans, the Cobra Khans, the Raven Khans (who had been disqualified from the Trials, WTF?), . . . everyone else just decided it was better to fight and win a coveted slot against the real powerhouses of the Clans?

Second, the text then goes on to say that N'Buta pulled the Adders out of the running when he bid his entire Touman and once again was ridiculed.

Seriously?

Look at what the other Clans actually bid in Round 1:

Blood Spirits: 9 Galaxies. We don't know how many they actually had at the time; just that after the Burrock Absorption they recovered only 8 Clusters from 5 Galaxies. And were still able to field 6 Galaxies just a few years later.

Burrock: 9 Galaxies. Once again, we have no clue as to their actual numbers.

Cloud Cobra: 7 Galaxies. Ah . . . writers, by the time of Field Manual: Warden Clans, the Cobras only had SIX Galaxies. And I'm certain I didn't miss any passages where it was shown that they LOST one or more entire Galaxies in the intervening years.

Coyotes: 8 Galaxies. Gee wiz, guys. They only had eight in 3061 . . . and once again there is no mention of them getting an entire Galaxy or more taken apart between 3048 and 3061!

Diamond Shark: 7 Galaxies. Ok. They had 8 in 3061, so they didn't bid their entire Touman like the Adders. Just 87.5% of it.

Fire Mandrill: all 7 Kindraa. That is 100% of their Touman.

Ghost Bear: 12 Galaxies. We don't know how much they had in 3048, but in 3061 they had just 13. AFTER building a new Galaxy.

Goliath Scorpion: 7 Galaxies. Once again, that is exactly what they have in 3061.

Hell's Horses: 9 Galaxies. Out of nine in Field Manual: Crusader Clans.

Ice Hellion: 7 Galaxies. Sigh. We know they lost units in the Hellion's Fury campaign, but they also gained a LOT of resources. Yet, in 3061, they had just six small Galaxies. Any ideas here? Anyone?

Jade Falcon: 10 Galaxies. And no, I'm not about to try and guess how many they had. There is simply not enough information to make a reasonable approximation.

Nova Cat: 9 Galaxies. See above.

Smoke Jaguar: 11 Galaxies. See above.

Snow Raven: N/A. Since, apparently, they were disqualified from the Trials without even putting up a Trial of Refusal!

Star Adder: Entire Touman. And we don't know how many there was. They had 11 Galaxies in 3061 after losing 3 to the Spirits and absorbing what was left of the Burrocks, and then rebuilding units. But we don't know for sure.

Steel Viper: 9 Galaxies. Out of the ten that they had (90% of Touman!).

Wolf: Didn't bid. And the guesses at 3048 Touman composition are even more iffy than the Falcons or Jags.

Six Clans that bid their entire known Touman (plus the Adders), plus at least three more Clans (for a total of TEN out of the seventeen existing in 3048) that bid everything but a token Galaxy that would have remained behind in the Homeworlds. And of the seven left, two didn't bid at all (Wolves and Ravens).

So why all of the derision at the Adders over bidding their entire Touman? At least six other Clans did the exact same thing!

It makes no sense to me; it feels forced, written to make the universe match the established canon via a deus ex machina that the writers hope stays behind the curtain!

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

MA

Ice Hellion · « **Reply #1 on:** June 28, 2015, 12:54:35 AM »

Quote from: masterarminas on June 27, 2015, 11:15:57 PM

Even the smaller Clans (who had to know that they had zero chance of being included in the Invasion if slots were selected via Trial) just outright rejected the idea that every Clan should be involved from the first?

Why would they know they had no chance of being included in the Invasion if slots were selected via Trial?

Takiro · « **Reply #2 on:** June 28, 2015, 06:10:28 AM »

Oh goodie, working on Clarion Call and the Quicksilver Trails I really liked seeing this title released. I thought Star Adder was right but why didn't N'Buta open his mouth and "we are the planners and it looks like you could certainly use some help there Khan Hawker" [DUMB ASS!] He was set up perfectly for that.

To a certain extent I can see your point MasterArminas but making up new stuff is a problem when you go back and try to file in the holes on previously established canon. For us as alternate universe buffs there are plenty of opportunities and this product puts some forth.

The one thing I still have never understood is the vote still and Clan Coyote's role. Others were nicely explained as Crusader politicking or a Scorpion coin flip but never Coyote who along with Wolf were staunchly Warden. Their vote has never been explained. Could it be that their Traditionalist Clan values overrode their long standing political philosophy when confronted with an InnerSphere invasion? They are despite being Wardens very Conservative and if Leo Showers played them right perhaps but I don't know seems pretty obvious to me. If Coyote remained true and stood with the Wolves I think the vote may have been closer and given the 3rd Battle Cluster's performance the invasion may have been forestalled. Then what gets fun but still why did Coyote vote for invasion?

Blood Spirit, you are forgetting that deal they made with the Ravens that gives them 10 or 11 Galaxies by 3010 and leaves them with only 6 Warships.

Burrock, I never noticed a 9 Galaxy bid by them if so this would indicate a large loss of strength in the years to come. Their Absorption just 10 years later has them fielding a Touman of 7 Galaxies (3 front line and 4 second line). Of course initial bids here could have been contract bids with certain Clans stepping up to bolster numbers.

Cloud Cobra could have well made that bid of 7 Galaxies even if they fielded just 6 because of their high number of reserves. I believe FM Warden Clans says they have a huge reserve, probably the largest of any Clan, but doing so would have taxed their abilities IMO.

Coyote was more of a paper tiger at this point with more troops on paper than in actuality. I believe they were beating up on Snow Raven at this time and both Clans were pretty hurt. So while they may have fielded 5 line Galaxies at this time on paper Khan Sullivan Koga is current the Khan Steele's champion at this time and has yet to reform their touman.

Diamond Shark did get bitched up by the invasion something fierce. Tukayyid cost them parts if not all of Alpha, Gamma, and Omega Galaxies so it is possible that they had more at this point however I don't think the evidence shows that.

Fire Mandrill went all in with 7 Kindraa which is interesting as it forgoes the possibility of contract bidding and don't forget these are all combat hardened troops thanks to constant infighting.

Ghost Bear is the place it gets really interesting cause their bid is previously established in canon, the Invading Clans. Now they did bid 12 Galaxies there but that source explicitly states they are "FRONTLINE" Galaxies.

Goliath Scorpion does put forth their max but again could have been contracting with other Clans. It is interesting that the lowest initial bid is 7 Galaxies. Which brings me to an interesting point. Is this a pissing contest or Clan bidding? The point of Clan bidding is to show daring and elan not a bragging contest to say look how many bad ass troops I got bitches!

Hell's Horses appears to be their max but again why bid your max unless your scarred? It seems as though someone confused overall strength with the bidding process.

Ice Hellion could be bidding their Flurry units as part of their invasion force but again why not lower? They are rash.

The Falcons like have more than 10 Galaxies at this point in time. The invasion cost them dearly even with Khan Crichell's bandit caste logistics which enabled their miraculous post Refusal War recovery. Twycross cost the Falcons as did Tukayyid. My guess is they could have had 12 which does shave something off their bid.

Nova Cat at 9 Galaxies initially is a little more daring cause they had approximately 11-12 looking at the evidence. The invasion of Irece, Luthien, and Tukayyid cost them significant troops.

Smoke Jaguar with 11 Galaxies could be shaving a couple of Galaxies off given their unmatched invasion losses. No Clan took it like they did from Wolcott, to Luthien, to Tukayyid. They may have had 12-13 Galaxies at this time. I believe their bid is also eluded to in the Invading Clans SB.

Snow Ravens couldn't make the 7 Galaxy measuring stick requirement?? Yes they did tangle with Coyote but was this the original Cutdown (minimum force considered necessary to win) for Operation Revival? I actually didn't mind their imposed exclusion story wise. As the naval Clan they are powerful yet weak.

Star Adder had 10 Galaxies (5 front line and 5 second line) during the Burrock Absorption that they split up during that Operation to create more. With 47 or 48 Clusters they are not high end but more middle of the road Clan strength wise. I didn't mind their story or performance in this product. It probably fit the best of all to me.

Steel Viper is perhaps the most believable bid cause they can never decide what the hell to do. Very toe in the water.

Wolf, is the weird Touman. Their strength should give them something like the Jaguars and the Bears but perhaps their Warden stance was always getting them beat up? That don't make sense however because winning Trails wins you resources. I approximate their strength as that of the Adders at this time at around 10 Galaxies which isn't bad but isn't great. I mean they use bloodlines from not only themselves but the Widowmakers giving them a larger pool then any other Clan. Industrially they are strong but yet according to my own math there are four stronger Clans (Ghost Bear, Smoke Jaguar, Jade Falcon and Nova Cat). Even Steel Viper, Star Adder and Blood Spirit might be larger placing them near Coyote for 8th or 9th place in ground force strength. That does seem to show Crusader strength at this time - still Wolf should have more.

I agree with your conclusion MA. It was written to fit established story lines but perhaps the entire Touman bid goes to the Snow Raven part as well - the Naval Component. I might be reaching here but that is the best I got. Perhaps it also forgoes the possibility of contract bids?? Your guess is as good as any. Love to hear what you think

JPArbiter · « **Reply #3 on:** June 28, 2015, 09:29:03 PM »

Lets keep in mind a couple of things

1) The arrival of the Outbound Light, and the intel gleamed from it, was the equivilent of September 11th or Pearl Harbor (Apoliogies to my European friends for lack of cultural context) it signified, even to the Warden Clans, that they were no longer 100 safe and isolated. Intyel gleamed from Wolf's Dragoons also indicated that the Inner Sphere was significantly stronger then expected, strong enough perhaps to even counter the weight of the clans.

2) Despite all of this information you still had a unity council of seventeen warrior tribes. proud warriors with 300 years of martial heratige, longer if you count the SLDF Traditions transplaneted. there was bad blood, politics, pride, and even fear working against a unified military action, and no singular leader that could really build a cult of personality large enough to unite. While N'Buta's call was logical, it was also doomed from the start thanks to such cultural pride, and the fact that the clans were allowed to become a loose confederation during the Golden Century rather then a unity government.

3) There is certainly some Warden Calculus at play, even if it was done without Wolf Leadership. surely some Wardens saw the invasion and it's inevitable failure, particularly undercut in force, as a chance to weaken the Crusader clans Militarily for their own gains at home. history has indeed proven this, since in less then a quarter of a century the field of clans was reaved from 17 to 4 in the homeworlds

masterarminas · « **Reply #4 on:** June 28, 2015, 10:27:40 PM »

Another question:

What was up with Burrock, Coyote, and Star Adder in sending a Veteran unit to fight the Revival Trials? Every Clan has at least one Elite Cluster, after all.

Wouldn't you send your best Warriors for a shot at the chance to invade the Inner Sphere? I would.

Quote

Blood Spirit: Red Guards (Elite)
Burrock: 206th Hussar Cluster (Veteran)
Cloud Cobra: N/A
Coyote: 38th Assault Cluster (Veteran)
Diamond Shark: 21st Assault Cluster (Elite)
Fire Mandrill: Provisional Assautl Cluster (Beyl-Grant Veteran; all others Elite)
Ghost Bear: 3rd Bear Guards (Elite)
Goliath Scorpion: 1st Cateran Cluster (Elite)
Hell's Horses: 11th Mechanized Cavalry (Elite)
Ice Hellion: 7th Attack Cluster (Elite)
Jade Falcon: 3rd Falcon Talon Cluster (Elite)
Nova Cat: 1st Nova Cat Guards (Elite)
Snow Raven: N/A
Smoke Jaguar: 6th Jaguar Dragoons (Elite)
Star Adder: 5th Assault Cluster (Veteran)
Steel Viper: 4th Viper Guards (Elite)
Wolf: N/A

The majority of Clans did select an Elite unit to fight. Only these three did not. Did the writers forget that those Clans had better units . . . or was it done to justify their loss?

MA

Takiro · « **Reply #5 on:** June 29, 2015, 12:44:30 AM »

Good points JP, I imagine the Coyotes were pretty shocked and their traditionalist attitudes overrode their political philosophy.

MA you have a good point but have you considered presumed inferiority of some units in Clan bidding. Winning with less force is better and sometimes you can lull a "better" opponent into a false sense of superiority. Veteran units should not be dismissed. I mean they are not Green.

Keep in mind Star Adder was a proxy force and perhaps used their InnerSphere OPFOR rather than its best troops. Coyote was still a Warden Clan and perhaps this was their way of participating but not trying to win an invasion corridor all that bad. Honor was served in other words. Burrock seems to have been duplicitous if there is such a thing in the Clans. We know of their dealings with the Dark Caste and even N'Buta referred to them as the Clans' spies in his speech before the Council.

I have more but must go to bed. Till tomorrow!

Blacknova · « **Reply #6 on:** June 29, 2015, 07:13:22 AM »

Galaxies could possibly be explained by more 2-3 cluster units or less 4-6 cluster units. That's all I have as its late.

Takiro · « **Reply #7 on:** June 29, 2015, 04:43:01 PM »

Okay without getting into the specifics I wanted to post the outcome of the Combat Trails. Results are worst to best.

Wins - Losses
0-0 Wolf (Did not compete)
0-0 Snow Raven (Did not qualify)
0-0 Cloud Cobra (Withdrew from bidding)
0-2 Burrock
0-2 Hell's Horses
0-2 Ice Hellion
1-2 Blood Spirit
1-2 Fire Mandrill
1-2 Goliath Scorpion
1-2 Coyote
2-2 Diamond Shark
2-2 Nova Cat
2-1 Star Adder (Proxy force)
3-2 Steel Viper
3-1 Ghost Bear
3-1 Smoke Jaguar
4-0 Jade Falcon

Overall I liked this product but things like a Political Balance Table for the Homeworlds circa 3048 would have been a nice addition as well as any changes for the Hellion Fury campaign. Oh and Coyote's reasons for voting yes.

Ice Hellion · « **Reply #8 on:** June 30, 2015, 02:02:27 PM »

And how did the Veteran units perform?

drakensis · « **Reply #9 on:** July 01, 2015, 03:12:31 AM »

Burrocks lost in the first two rounds and were eliminated.
Coyotes beat the Fire Mandrills in the first round but then got beaten by the Smoke Jaguars and Steel Vipers.
Star Adders beat the Diamond Sharks, lost to the Nova Cats and then beat the Fire Mandrills

Although beating the Fire Mandrills - a scratch cluster built up from the various Kindraa forces IIRC - isn't much of an accomplishment.

Takiro · « **Reply #10 on:** July 01, 2015, 06:19:05 AM »

Hey Hell's Horses couldn't get it done. No wins! To me they were the biggest under performer.

For overachiever I'd go with Jade Falcon. No losses! Running the table in Clan space is an accomplishment.

JPArbiter · « **Reply #11 on:** July 05, 2015, 04:03:18 PM »

Quote from: Takiro on July 01, 2015, 06:19:05 AM

For overachiever I'd go with Jade Falcon. No losses! Running the table in Clan space is an accomplishment.

Strictly speaking the Falcons have never been beaten in a major war since the Revival trials. there have been times they stopped, either by treaty or strategic necessity, and they have fought to draws, but I can't think of a real defeat they suffered up to the turn of the 32nd century with the exception of Twycross.

Ice Hellion · « **Reply #12 on:** July 06, 2015, 02:04:57 PM »

Quote from: JPArbiter on July 05, 2015, 04:03:18 PM

Strictly speaking the Falcons have never been beaten in a major war since the Revival trials. there have been times they stopped, either by treaty or strategic necessity, and they have fought to draws, but I can't think of a real defeat they suffered up to the turn of the 32nd century with the exception of Twycross.

It depends how you define winning and losing.

Takiro · « **Reply #13 on:** July 06, 2015, 03:57:36 PM »

Well the Falcons were beaten on Tukayyid. They failed to take either of their objectives but some how achieved a draw based on causalities inflicted.

The Refusal War isn't their finest moment but they did win just barely.

Coventry would have been a greater defeat but they were allowed to withdraw.

That being said the Falcons seem to have this thing where they have to win no matter how abstract their victory may seem.

Dragon Cat · « **Reply #14 on:** July 06, 2015, 04:33:33 PM »

Explaining the veteran units could simply be a case of the Clan method of combat

Those units may have won trials within their Clans placing them at the top of the picking order or could be politically well placed ie Khans chosen or the could have historical links as being one of the Clan's premier units like the 1st Nova Cat Guards I don't think you can pick out the units based on their average experience indicator explaining the choices is likely just beyond the scope of the PDF

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Author Topic: Questions About Revival Trials (Read 1183 times)

masterarminas

Questions About Revival Trials

Ice Hellion

Re: Questions About Revival Trials

Takiro

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JPArbiter

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masterarminas

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Takiro

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Blacknova

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Takiro

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Ice Hellion

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drakensis

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Takiro

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JPArbiter

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Ice Hellion

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Takiro

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Dragon Cat

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