OBT Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to OurBattleTech.com - A BattleTech Fan Site

Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down

Author Topic: Size of House Militaries at the start of the 1st War  (Read 6292 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Blacknova

  • Puppet Master
  • Global Moderator
  • General
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,351
  • Rugby Players - Inspiration for the BattleMech
    • The Kapteyn Universe
Size of House Militaries at the start of the 1st War
« on: March 09, 2012, 07:04:24 PM »

According to the review of the House forces in Lib Tera 1, they were much bigger than we expected at the Exodus, even not counting SLDF gains. It would appear that some were in the 200+ range, making the 1st War one hell of a swing.
Logged
Dedicated to committing viciously gratuitous bastardy of the first order.

The Kapteyn Universe - http://www.ourbattletech.com/kapteyn

Follow the KU on twitter: Matt Alexander
@BlackNova01

You know there is something wrong with the FWL, when Word's spell check changes Impavido to Impetigo and Zechetinu to Secretion.

Dread Moores

  • Overste
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 740
Re: Size of House Militaries at the start of the 1st War
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2012, 01:16:21 AM »

Huh. I would have actually thought they were much bigger than that, even.
Logged
The first one to use the term Dork Age loses.

Takiro

  • General
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,175
  • For the Last Cameron!
Re: Size of House Militaries at the start of the 1st War
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2012, 07:19:35 AM »

Well they give us solid numbers for the Great Houses which I'm pretty happy with for the Mech side of things. It accounts for the Edict of 2650 then has two doublings before the start of hostilities which makes sense. However, the thing that irks me is the naval side of things. The size of their fleets is so tiny compared to the Star League's it ain't funny.
Logged

Dread Moores

  • Overste
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 740
Re: Size of House Militaries at the start of the 1st War
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2012, 10:16:19 AM »

However, the thing that irks me is the naval side of things. The size of their fleets is so tiny compared to the Star League's it ain't funny.

Why would that irk you? It's been mentioned for a long time that the SLDF fleet was one of their greatest advantages.
Logged
The first one to use the term Dork Age loses.

CJvR

  • Fanjunkare
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 267
Re: Size of House Militaries at the start of the 1st War
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2012, 10:29:30 AM »

Well they give us solid numbers for the Great Houses which I'm pretty happy with for the Mech side of things. It accounts for the Edict of 2650 then has two doublings before the start of hostilities which makes sense. However, the thing that irks me is the naval side of things. The size of their fleets is so tiny compared to the Star League's it ain't funny.
Care to share a rough estimate? Have the old housebooks been overwritten?
Logged

Halvagor

  • Fanjunkare
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 207
Re: Size of House Militaries at the start of the 1st War
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2012, 12:50:00 PM »

Davion:
2750: 53 'Mech regiments, 25 WarShips
2765: 110 'Mech regiments, 51 WarShips
2785 (Estimate): 220 'Mech regiments, 100 WarShips

Liao:
2750: 42 'Mech regiments, 30 WarShips
2765: 92 'Mech regiments, 37 WarShips
2785 (Estimate): 184 'Mech Regiments, 74 WarShips

Kurita:
2750: 55 'Mech regiments, 30 WarShips
2765: 115 'Mech regiments, 42 WarShips
2785: 230 regiments, 84 WarShips

Marik:
2750: 60 'Mech regiments, 30 WarShips
2765: 95 'Mech regiments, 47 WarShips
2785 (Estimate): 190 'Mech regiments, 94 WarShips

Steiner:
2750: 52 'Mech regiments, 40 WarShips
2765: 90 'Mech regiments, 62 WarShips
2785 (Estimate): 180 'Mech regiments, 124 WarShips

I agree with Takiro that the Member State navies are far too small, as the numbers presented here really don't jive well with the official production numbers of member-state designed WarShips.  Given that the SLN had ~2250 WarShips active in 2760, it's rather pathetic for even the twice-doubled member states to field only an estimated 476 WarShips between them in 2785.  More than a third of the Liao fleet in 2750, by these figures, must consist of 24th-century vintage Du Shi Wang battleships, even more outdated than the retired-for-a-century Monsoon class of the SLN.  Nearly the entirety of the Lyran fleet (and large portions of everyone else's) must have consisted of Mako corvettes to meet the design's 100+ unit production run between 2692 and 2785.

The numbers just don't look like they should add up.  I'm not seeing how the DCMS is able to field "multitudes" of New Samarkand carriers with the WarShip count it's provided, either.   
Logged
"...but if evil men were not now and then slain it would not be a good world for weaponless dreamers."  From Kim, by Rudyard Kipling, 1901

Dread Moores

  • Overste
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 740
Re: Size of House Militaries at the start of the 1st War
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2012, 01:52:02 PM »

And that would be reason number two for why the Star League should stay shrouded in mystery.
Logged
The first one to use the term Dork Age loses.

Halvagor

  • Fanjunkare
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 207
Re: Size of House Militaries at the start of the 1st War
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2012, 02:05:02 PM »

Yes, LoT I is very bittersweet.  Part of me wants to like it, but all it does is confirm that even in the SLDF, no one understood a lick of 3000 years of military strategy.  Sunzi would have said Kerensky was an incompetent; I certainly think so.  Amaris having no sense of strategy I can understand; he's not hailed as a military genius.  Sadly, he doesn't even come off as an effective dictator, and CGL continues to not understand economics (particularly finance). 

I think I preferred the bare-bones explanation provided in the old Star League book.

On the up-side, Kerensky being a crappy tactician/strategist goes a long way to explaining why the Clans are such terrible strategists, as well.  As if ~200 years of ritual combat in place of actual war wasn't enough. 
Logged
"...but if evil men were not now and then slain it would not be a good world for weaponless dreamers."  From Kim, by Rudyard Kipling, 1901

Takiro

  • General
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,175
  • For the Last Cameron!
Re: Size of House Militaries at the start of the 1st War
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2012, 03:15:26 PM »

Your right on with your estimates Halvagor but it screws up the old numbers we have of Great House strength at the time. Both House Liao and Steiner give us in the 120s for number of Mech regiments that began the 1st War. I estimated the ground forces at 50 - 60 Mech regiments under the Edict of 2650 so that was pretty good. Doubling in 2752 with the Arms Amendment is fine but to reach that goal in just 15 years? The Star League doesn't technically end until 2781 when the High Council dissolves so doubling between 2765 and 2781 would be highly illegal. Yeah who is gonna stop you since your kind of on the honor system but feeding the SLDF in its campaign has got to consume some supplies no? What of Lyran casualties in the Rim War?

Don't even get me started on warships. Major disappointment with House numbers. However the original Black Lion class Battlecruiser was endorsed in canon and we got plenty of good SL fluff. Although their Rim foes and the Periphery in general field many warships, don't ask me how more than a House, we have little detail on them.
Logged

Halvagor

  • Fanjunkare
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 207
Re: Size of House Militaries at the start of the 1st War
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2012, 03:27:10 PM »

Well, it did say that Stevie Amaris bought ~200 obsolete SLN WarShips, which doubtless made up the bulk of the ~400 RWR/Periphery WarShips which came out of nowhere.  Sadly for the staff of the book, ~300 RWR WarShips are, mathematically, barely able to send one ship to each Hegemony system's jump points, yet the text shows that dozens of RWR WarShips were thrown at the Terra System, alone (and pretty much all wiped out); dozens more are arranged in squadrons to attack other SLN targets.  So the idea that the RWR navy could seize all, what, 286 Jump Points in the Hegemony simultaneously I find...dubious.

But more annoying to me is the idea that Amaris & his trainers could form & train 70 "Secret Army" divisions in five years; he's said to have had 2 "Secret Army" divisions in 2760, but suddenly there are ~70 in 2765.  And if the SLDF was shown to be "brittle" without their support network, how did the "Secret Army" units achieve the sort of skill at operations, command, and logistics necessary to operate entire divisions by the dozen?  In the real world, five years from being civilians most officers are just barely qualified to be Company XOs, not running divisions against the best-trained fighting force in the known galaxy, and achieving better than 2:1 casualty ratios. 

As I said, there's a lot in LoT I which I find annoying, even if it's nice to have some other things fleshed out.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 03:33:22 PM by Halvagor »
Logged
"...but if evil men were not now and then slain it would not be a good world for weaponless dreamers."  From Kim, by Rudyard Kipling, 1901

CJvR

  • Fanjunkare
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 267
Re: Size of House Militaries at the start of the 1st War
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2012, 04:59:24 PM »

Those shipping figures seem very low considering the figures mentioned in the early house books.
Logged

Takiro

  • General
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,175
  • For the Last Cameron!
Re: Size of House Militaries at the start of the 1st War
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2012, 05:14:47 PM »

I'm thinking BTSD is gonna just retcon some of these figures. I have been planning some revisions to my favorite little alternate universe for some time waiting to see what this Year of the Star League would bring. It appears we are gonna have to fix more than a few things here though.
Logged

drakensis

  • Duke of Avalon
  • KU Player
  • General
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,299
Re: Size of House Militaries at the start of the 1st War
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2012, 05:58:57 PM »

If it is accepted that Stefan Amaris could raise dozens of divisions in a few years from reservists (and in fairness, that's not wholly implausible given how rapidly large forces have been raised in our own history*, even given a longer and more technical training period) then it is consistent that the House Lords could raise scores of regiments in a similar time period.

Of course this is very different from the immense strain of expanding forces in the 31st century, but that is after centuries of almost constant war.

* In WWII the US Army went from, IIRC correctly, ~12 regular divisions and ~12 National Guard divisions in 1945 to 91 divisions in 1945. Training mechwarriors and other 'modern' soldiers so quickly would not be possible, but it's believeable that given three or four times as long - that is, 12-16 years - that a highly industrialised society could do likewise in Battletech. Now whether they could do so secretly is another can of worms entirely.


As to warship numbers, Amaris' method of building ships sounds plausible enough. The SLDF yards seem to have been able to churn out battleships once or twice a year without great difficulty so the prospect of a member state being able to build themselves a dozen or so large warships in a decade and a half sounds plausible, and building many smaller ships - corvettes and destroyers - in yards that usually build jumpships would also be possible (it would also fit the general proportions seen in RUW naval organisation). I doubt there would be many yards capable of building warships that the SLDF wouldn't keep control of so the slow buildup is also plausible although I admit I'd like to see the sort of fleets detailed in the Fan Book TRO 2800
Logged

lrose

  • General
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,664
Re: Size of House Militaries at the start of the 1st War
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2012, 11:54:16 PM »


Steiner:
2750: 52 'Mech regiments, 40 WarShips
2765: 90 'Mech regiments, 62 WarShips
2785 (Estimate): 180 'Mech regiments, 124 WarShips


Just looking at the LCN the numbers really don't make sense- we know that there were 100+ Makos built most for the LCN, they also had 28 Tharkads built between 2690 and whenever the factory was destroyed in the 1st SW.  We also know that they had Aegis, Baron and Vigilant class ships from the SLDF.  I'd assume 6 Aegis (the SLDF turned 30 over to the houses- no reason to assume they were not equally distributed) as for the Baron and Vigilant using the (suspect) numbers in H:RW we can say it was probably around 5 Barons and 10 Vigilants.  So we have a total of 21 SLDF warships. 

The LCAF "lost" 7 warships during the RW- even saying all 7 were former SLDF vessels leaves them a net of 14 ships (and given that these ships were not turned over until the latter stages of the RW I would argue that almost none should have been lost). 

So we have 100 Makos, 28 Tharkads (no actually lets say it is 20 - and 8 were built after 2785) and at least 14 former SLDF vessels- that gives the LCN 134 ships - without allowing for any Battleships (the existence of which is suggested by the fluff of the Atreus) or Frigates and minimal numbers of cruisers and destroyers.  Something is definitely broken here.

Really they could have tripled the size of the House fleets in 2785 and it would have still been fine.  Using the same ratios- roughly 1400 warships in 2785 would be about 700 in 2760- giving the SLDF a 3 to 1 advantage against the navies of all of the member states. 




Logged

Halvagor

  • Fanjunkare
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 207
Re: Size of House Militaries at the start of the 1st War
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2012, 12:25:32 AM »

If it is accepted that Stefan Amaris could raise dozens of divisions in a few years from reservists (and in fairness, that's not wholly implausible given how rapidly large forces have been raised in our own history*, even given a longer and more technical training period) then it is consistent that the House Lords could raise scores of regiments in a similar time period.

I'm not challenging Amaris's ability to expand his own army; there he can build off existing table of organization and incorporate reserves.  What he did is quite similar to how European armies were organized in the run-up to WWI.  The rapid expansion would hurt his overall effectiveness as officers would necessarily be promoted beyond their abilities simply because there were so many new units to fill up.


Quote
* In WWII the US Army went from, IIRC correctly, ~12 regular divisions and ~12 National Guard divisions in 1945 to 91 divisions in 1945. Training mechwarriors and other 'modern' soldiers so quickly would not be possible, but it's believeable that given three or four times as long - that is, 12-16 years - that a highly industrialised society could do likewise in Battletech. Now whether they could do so secretly is another can of worms entirely.
Again, while LoT notes that training time for individuals in the SLDF is 3-8 years from joining to hitting their first unit, I'm not concerned with the expansion of the House armies; the personnel can be found; equipment is harder, but it seems 2750-2765 was a period of massive military production, since everyone but the SLDF was massively increasing their armies.  Not only Amaris's 70 "secret army" divisions, but the Houses added 250 'Mech regiments between them in that time, the equivalent of another ~40-80 divisions.  That big a production upswing throughout the Inner Sphere would be noticable even to military personnel who don't know much about economics.  While the House military expansions would have provided some nice cover to Amaris's expansion, it would also have drastically driven up the difficulty of borrowing money for him. 

The Secret Army divisions, however, have no existing force to build from.  The commander of each "Secret Army" division was likely a civilian in 2758, but he/she was able to destroy more than two SLDF divisions on average in 2766.  Everyone is a civilian in uniform, which means they're amateurs, which means they should be making a lot of stupid mistakes.  But the way they're described in the book makes it seem like they were extremely competent, skilled, and a challenge to the SLDF. 

In WWII, the US Army increased in size dramatically, but the quality of its officer corps went down just as drastically.  Anything more than a cursory study of the conflict will show that across all branches of the US military a lot of stupid decisions were made by commanders, and the US Army was essentially a bunch of civilians in uniform until late '44 early '45.  Even the long-service professionals had trouble with the massive expansion, because they had never been trained to operate such large formations.  But at least they were long-service military professionals -- the same can not be said for the Periphery "Secret Army" divisions or their personnel.


Quote
As to warship numbers, Amaris' method of building ships sounds plausible enough. The SLDF yards seem to have been able to churn out battleships once or twice a year without great difficulty so the prospect of a member state being able to build themselves a dozen or so large warships in a decade and a half sounds plausible, and building many smaller ships - corvettes and destroyers - in yards that usually build jumpships would also be possible (it would also fit the general proportions seen in RUW naval organisation). I doubt there would be many yards capable of building warships that the SLDF wouldn't keep control of so the slow buildup is also plausible although I admit I'd like to see the sort of fleets detailed in the Fan Book TRO 2800
The method is okay; him having the industrial base to pull it off and not get caught?  Well, given how magically industry appears in the rest of the franchise, I guess I can let it slide.  But his WarShip crews should have been even more incompetent than everyone else fighting, yet they manage to simultaneously seize every JumpPoint in the Hegemony despite lacking the numbers to actually do so.  And all their obsolete SLN WarShips should be just as much eggshells-armed-with-sledgehammers as the regular SLN ships, but running Green crews instead of Veteran.  I'm amazed that even half of them survived the initial seizure of the TH; it must have been the half who never so much as saw an SLN ship.

Irose:

Less than a hundred Makos; 5 were bought by the RWR, and the SLN had some for use as courier vessels.   And others were produced post-2750, no doubt.  But it does imply that the Steiner fleet was made up of nothing but Makos & Tharkads.  I suppose that the House militaries could have put ships into mothballs just the same as the SLN (Amaris had 30 Pintos left over from the previous century), but even so there's not enough room for the known ships in the Lyran fleet, much less the unknown ones.
Logged
"...but if evil men were not now and then slain it would not be a good world for weaponless dreamers."  From Kim, by Rudyard Kipling, 1901
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up