Topic: Size of House Militaries at the start of the 1st War (Read 6303 times)

lrose · « **Reply #15 on:** March 11, 2012, 12:35:04 AM »

Quote from: Halvagor on March 11, 2012, 12:25:32 AM

Irose:

Less than a hundred Makos; 5 were bought by the RWR, and the SLN had some for use as courier vessels. And others were produced post-2750, no doubt. But it does imply that the Steiner fleet was made up of nothing but Makos & Tharkads. I suppose that the House militaries could have put ships into mothballs just the same as the SLN (Amaris had 30 Pintos left over from the previous century), but even so there's not enough room for the known ships in the Lyran fleet, much less the unknown ones.

I was using 100 as a round number -it's probably between 95 and 105- the TRO entry says more then 100 were built between 2692 and the fall of the SL (giving us an upper date of 2781 definitely no later then 2787 as that is when the yards were destroyed.) The RWR bought 5 and the SLDF bought "a handful" (whatever that means exactly is open to discussion).

Sure the houses could have put ships into mothballs but by 2785 they should have taken them out of Mothballs (unless they were really that stupid to be unable to see the handwriting on the wall and the need for more forces).

Hessian · « **Reply #16 on:** March 11, 2012, 01:48:52 PM »

Hmmm....

Personally I think that the Great Houses could actually be able to build large numbers of WarShips
from 2765 to 2785.
And here's my reasoning why:
In my view the infrastructure needed to build WarShips is even more complex than that needed for production of BattleMechs. Therefore I assume that it takes a certain lead time before high volume production of WarShips can commence.
For this reason the increase in BattleMech regiments for the Great Houses is much higher(and in my opinion logically so) than that of WarShips between 2750, or more precisely, 2752(when the Council Edict of 2650 was repealed) and 2765.
Furthermore during this 13 year period the Star League was in a crisis, yes, but not yet threatened in its existence by the Periphery Uprising in 2765 and the Amaris Coup in 2766.
Then after the Amaris Coup in 2766(and the lead time to high volume Naval production lapsed) the House Lords are not only able, but also willing to begin high volume (War-)Ship-building, because of the uncertain situation cast by the Amaris Civil War.

Furthermore, and I realize that I am likely in the minority here, I consider the real problem to be Fasa and FanPro's publishing of hard numbers of produced WarShips.
Such hard numbers are problematic simply because in an universe with such a large and rich background as BattleTech there is a great chance that such hard numbers can cause inconsistencies(case in point the number of Mako Corvettes built in TRO 3057 revised) and thus complicate the storytelling process.
And, let's face it, with a fanbase as dedicated as us

such inconsistencies are bound to cause discussions like this one.

Just my two â‚¬ cents...

Ciao
Hessian

drakensis · « **Reply #17 on:** March 11, 2012, 02:59:59 PM »

Quote

Again, while LoT notes that training time for individuals in the SLDF is 3-8 years from joining to hitting their first unit, I'm not concerned with the expansion of the House armies; the personnel can be found; equipment is harder, but it seems 2750-2765 was a period of massive military production, since everyone but the SLDF was massively increasing their armies. Not only Amaris's 70 "secret army" divisions, but the Houses added 250 'Mech regiments between them in that time, the equivalent of another ~40-80 divisions. That big a production upswing throughout the Inner Sphere would be noticable even to military personnel who don't know much about economics. While the House military expansions would have provided some nice cover to Amaris's expansion, it would also have drastically driven up the difficulty of borrowing money for him.

The Secret Army divisions, however, have no existing force to build from. The commander of each "Secret Army" division was likely a civilian in 2758, but he/she was able to destroy more than two SLDF divisions on average in 2766. Everyone is a civilian in uniform, which means they're amateurs, which means they should be making a lot of stupid mistakes. But the way they're described in the book makes it seem like they were extremely competent, skilled, and a challenge to the SLDF.

In WWII, the US Army increased in size dramatically, but the quality of its officer corps went down just as drastically. Anything more than a cursory study of the conflict will show that across all branches of the US military a lot of stupid decisions were made by commanders, and the US Army was essentially a bunch of civilians in uniform until late '44 early '45. Even the long-service professionals had trouble with the massive expansion, because they had never been trained to operate such large formations. But at least they were long-service military professionals -- the same can not be said for the Periphery "Secret Army" divisions or their personnel.

The Periphery states did have military forces, so I suspect that Amaris made a point of retired (or plausible to retire/quit) members of the Taurian, Canopian and Outworlds military forces to act as a cadre. Even so, it's a fair point that having the army being so effective (even given the surprise factor) is a bit unlikely. Most of the SLDF casualties were probably suffered due to IEDs blowing up barracks and sudden unexpected nuking of their port-castles rather than actual battlefield losses, with the Secret Army over-running scattered and shell-shocked survivors.

In terms of the sources of the 'Mechs, a possible explanation (which would have been very easy to add) would be that Amaris was fiddling SLDF supplies and that the dire shortage of supplies for the SLDF after the Hegemony fell was because when they cracked open their 'secret bunkers' in the Member States that should have had full division sets of replacement equipment ready and waiting, they found a lot of empty hangers, with the difference having been shipped to Amaris at some point in the previous decade. Given Kerensky's purging of the bureaucracy of the SLDF previously that sort of oversight being missed for a few years (long enough for him to get his coup going) might be believeable. Still, there's no mention of it, and it seems like the sort of ploy that would have been noticed.

Halvagor · « **Reply #18 on:** March 11, 2012, 03:19:54 PM »

Quote from: drakensis on March 11, 2012, 02:59:59 PM

The Periphery states did have military forces, so I suspect that Amaris made a point of retired (or plausible to retire/quit) members of the Taurian, Canopian and Outworlds military forces to act as a cadre. Even so, it's a fair point that having the army being so effective (even given the surprise factor) is a bit unlikely. Most of the SLDF casualties were probably suffered due to IEDs blowing up barracks and sudden unexpected nuking of their port-castles rather than actual battlefield losses, with the Secret Army over-running scattered and shell-shocked survivors.

Yes, the Territorial States had militaries, but would still lack the personnel to expand by a factor of 10 in less than five years. More importantly, however, the advisors who trained the "Secret Army" are specifically stated to have been from the RWA, and the recruits were stated to have been disenfranchised & members of rebel cells. While it states that the three Periphery states provided greater or lesser support to the Secret Army divisions, it stops well short of saying they provided cadre.

As for the SLDF casualties, terrorist/irregular warfare could easily account for the casualties suffered by the 17th, 18th, and 19th Armies, who were surprised (and even against them, the attacks were not simultaneous, which means only the first strikes should have worked; more of CGL's insistence of gross incompetence by the SLDF). It does not explain the ~40% casualty rate for all the other SLDF forces which moved into the Periphery in 2766, who clearly had heard about what was going down.

Quote from: drakensis

In terms of the sources of the 'Mechs, a possible explanation (which would have been very easy to add) would be that Amaris was fiddling SLDF supplies and that the dire shortage of supplies for the SLDF after the Hegemony fell was because when they cracked open their 'secret bunkers' in the Member States that should have had full division sets of replacement equipment ready and waiting, they found a lot of empty hangers, with the difference having been shipped to Amaris at some point in the previous decade. Given Kerensky's purging of the bureaucracy of the SLDF previously that sort of oversight being missed for a few years (long enough for him to get his coup going) might be believeable. Still, there's no mention of it, and it seems like the sort of ploy that would have been noticed.

A very nice idea, honestly. But as the SLDF didn't trust Amaris, I'm not sure how he'd have gotten the locations of secret dumps, even with his manipulation of Richard. Plenty of ways for the SLDF, even if they were forced to disclose supply dump locations, to empty them on their own as part of "maneuvers" and put them in new "temporary" locations.

CJvR · « **Reply #19 on:** March 11, 2012, 04:37:36 PM »

The fall of the SL and particulary the monsterous attrition of the SLDF and the abrupt inflation of both the RWA and the other periphery militaries have always seemed to be the weak spot in the SL History. To bad they didn't seem to use the option to slash the SLDF to a more managable size. They could have reworked the SLDF division organization from the dozen regiments of the SL to the two regiments of the ComGuard and cutting the size to something a periphery conspiracy might have had a chance against, without inflicting "Sudden stupidity & incompetence" complex on the SLDF.

drakensis · « **Reply #20 on:** March 12, 2012, 05:33:55 AM »

Quote from: Halvagor on March 11, 2012, 03:19:54 PM

A very nice idea, honestly. But as the SLDF didn't trust Amaris, I'm not sure how he'd have gotten the locations of secret dumps, even with his manipulation of Richard. Plenty of ways for the SLDF, even if they were forced to disclose supply dump locations, to empty them on their own as part of "maneuvers" and put them in new "temporary" locations.

I'm sure the SLDF as an organisation would not have told Amaris much. However individual members of the SLDF being suborned and letting him know is more plausible. Amaris laid a lot of groundwork and infiltrating the SLDF itself is an obvious move. Still, there's no mention of it and it's the sort of thing that would probably have been mentioned by CGL if he had.

Ice Hellion · « **Reply #21 on:** March 18, 2012, 04:18:50 AM »

Quote from: Halvagor on March 10, 2012, 02:05:02 PM

On the up-side, Kerensky being a crappy tactician/strategist goes a long way to explaining why the Clans are such terrible strategists, as well. As if ~200 years of ritual combat in place of actual war wasn't enough.

Wrong Kerensky. You are talking about the father but the son is the creator of the Clans.

Ice Hellion · « **Reply #22 on:** March 18, 2012, 04:21:39 AM »

What about the non 'Mech units?

Halvagor · « **Reply #23 on:** March 18, 2012, 01:58:41 PM »

Quote from: Ice Hellion on March 18, 2012, 04:18:50 AM

Quote from: Halvagor on March 10, 2012, 02:05:02 PM
On the up-side, Kerensky being a crappy tactician/strategist goes a long way to explaining why the Clans are such terrible strategists, as well. As if ~200 years of ritual combat in place of actual war wasn't enough.

Wrong Kerensky. You are talking about the father but the son is the creator of the Clans.

Yes, but Aleksandr was still the nigh-deified head of the Star League Defense Force, who evidently wrote many primers on strategy and tactics. No doubt the Clans consumed these, just as it's obvious the Inner Sphere commanders did.

Quote from: Ice Hellion on March 18, 2012, 04:21:39 AM

What about the non 'Mech units?

Generally not covered. During the Periphery Uprising section it provides figures on number of total regiments deployed & destroyed for the three Periphery states, but doesn't characterize them except as 'Mech or non-'Mech, which is rather useless. And the House militaries don't even get that. Maybe in one of the next SL-era books...

Knightmare · « **Reply #24 on:** March 18, 2012, 05:26:27 PM »

Well one bit that can be inferred is when a given division is reported as "destroyed" you can count its conventional components as lost. It's rough, but could help flesh out a general number.

Ice Hellion · « **Reply #25 on:** March 19, 2012, 03:20:21 PM »

Quote from: Knightmare on March 18, 2012, 05:26:27 PM

Well one bit that can be inferred is when a given division is reported as "destroyed" you can count its conventional components as lost. It's rough, but could help flesh out a general number.

Hence my question since we are dealing with the size of House Militaries, which include non 'Mech units.

Halvagor · « **Reply #26 on:** March 20, 2012, 04:08:52 PM »

Figures on the Territorial States (minus the RWR):

Magistry:
2750: 1 Division (9 regiments)
2765: 20 Divisions (77 conventional regiments, 108 BattleMech regiments) (will be joined by ~45 Reg'ts of irregulars)
2770: ~20 Regiments
Loss ratio: SLDF: 391 regiments; Magistry: ~210 regiments

Outworlds:
2750: 5 Regiments
2765: 19 Divisions (72 conventional regiments, 100 BattleMech regiments) (will be joined by ~30 Reg'ts of irregulars)
2770: ~22 Regiments
Loss ratio: SLDF: 445 regiments; Outworlds: ~180 regiments
1255
Concordat:
2750: 13 Regiments
2765: 21 Divisions (78 conventional regiments, 115 BattleMech regiments) (will be joined by ~40 Reg'ts of irregulars)
2770: ~33 Regiments
Loss ratio: SLDF: 419 regiments; Concordat: ~200 regiments

The 2765 totals include the "Secret Army" divisions funded/trained by Amaris -- but note, there are ~60 of these, rather than the ~50 claimed in the text (the figures above come from pgs 50, 94, 95 and 97; size of the Secret Army discussed pg 51). Maybe the Territorial States had time to build up their armies on their own; we know the Magistry did (or, at least, was able to hire mercenaries), but the other Periphery states are specifically stated (pg 51) to not have been able to do the sleight-of-hand which allowed the RWA to have such massive contingents of reservists, which suggests the expansions of the Periphery State militaries between 2750 and 2765 are unlikely to account for the "missing" 10 divisions.

Periphery Divisions seem based on 9 regiments/division, while SLDF Divisions are based on 12 regiments (4 brigades) per division (plus supporting units). Periphery regiment totals seem far too BattleMech-heavy for thrown-together forces, and the description of the Secret Army divisions on pg 51 indicates that these forces should not have been 60:40 BattleMech (even the SLDF is described as having only slightly more than half its regiments being BattleMech formations).

Traditional descriptions of SLDF Divisions are also predicated on the 9 regiment (3 brigade) structure, but this is overturned on page 36 of H:LoT I, where it states that all SLDF divisions have a brigade of pure armor, in addition to the three other brigades, one of which is always 'Mech, one always Infantry, and the third one or the other. So SLDF Divisions should total 12 Line regiments + support troops, but this is not accounted for in the statistics on SLDF losses on pages 94, 95 and 97. Adding 3x more regiments per Division destroyed/disbanded revises the total SLDF losses to:

Magistry: 511 regiments
Outworlds: 586 regiments
Concordat: 554 regiments

And this moves the comparative loss ratios from ~2:1 (1255 to 590) to ~2.8:1 (1651 to 590).

Ice Hellion · « **Reply #27 on:** March 21, 2012, 02:54:16 PM »

Quote from: Halvagor on March 20, 2012, 04:08:52 PM

And this moves the comparative loss ratios from ~2:1 (1255 to 590) to ~2.8:1 (1651 to 590).

And we were told the SLDF was so efficient... but again they were the one on the offensive and it was not really a manoeuvre warfare.

FirstStarLord · « **Reply #28 on:** May 13, 2012, 09:39:13 PM »

1. The text also points out how badly demoralized the SLDF was by that point. A lot of combat losses were from desertions or outright defections. Ironically, Amaris's coup did more to reinvigorate the soldiers than any of Kerensky's pep rallies.

2. The rules of engagement they were bound to also greatly limited their ability to respond to attacks.

3. The book outright states that a lot of units were picked off piecemeal.

4. Also, WMDs and suicide tactics were used fairly liberally by the Secret Army. You can inflict some pretty frightful casualties on your enemies if you have no concerns about surviving the conflict.

5. Era Report 2750 shows that the SLDF had very little experience in large scale combat maneuvers. The soldiers were among the best trained in history, but only a handful of them had actually been under fire before that point, let alone fought at any level of organization above the lance.

The super battle-hardened SLDF of 2780 was a very different beast than the larger but more cumbersome force of 2765.

Ice Hellion · « **Reply #29 on:** May 14, 2012, 01:27:14 PM »

Quote from: FirstStarLord on May 13, 2012, 09:39:13 PM

5. Era Report 2750 shows that the SLDF had very little experience in large scale combat maneuvers. The soldiers were among the best trained in history, but only a handful of them had actually been under fire before that point, let alone fight at any level above lance level.

The super battle-hardened SLDF of 2780 was a very different beast than the larger but more cumbersome force of 2765.

What about Martial Olympiads and exercises?

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Author Topic: Size of House Militaries at the start of the 1st War (Read 6303 times)

lrose

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Hessian

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drakensis

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Halvagor

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CJvR

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drakensis

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Ice Hellion

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Ice Hellion

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Halvagor

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Knightmare

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Ice Hellion

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Halvagor

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Ice Hellion

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FirstStarLord

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Ice Hellion

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