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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #90 on: July 12, 2009, 08:01:17 PM »
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Kay.
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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #91 on: November 27, 2009, 06:15:42 PM »
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Well, this is my first post here -- personal issues have prevented me from contributing sooner.
Although I don't like to toot my own horn, I feel that it's necessary for this discussion: I am a former active-duty US Marine, with qualifications as a load-planner, crew-served weapons instructor, and Nuclear-Biological-Chemical warfare NCO -- below, I am speaking from personal experience.
I am not, however, a game-mechanics-head, so the nitty-gritty number crunching will have to be done by someone else.
On the subject of small arms, this is an area not well represented in CBT; someone commented on there being only 3 real arms manufacturers in the FWL -- that's rather like saying the only arms makers of consequence in the USA are Colt, Winchester and Remington - all are large and important, yes, but are by no means the only game-players out there. Forex, none of those three produce production-model crew-served weaponry; that's handled mostly by SACO, in Mass.
There's plenty of room for expansion of the CBT arms industry, especially in the Shattered Sphere universe, where the main Houses have not been leveled by 2 centuries of all-out nuclear attacks.
Also, infantry will never go away - infantry are good basic troops for security when using tanks or mechs would be a severe waste of resources, which is most of the time.
A couple of points from the discussion:
1.
Mauser 960 vs "half-rifle". I'm not sure what a "half-rifle" is, exactly, but it sounds like a carbine variant, or more specifically, a carbine-class weapon, like the M1 Carbine of WW2. Traditionally, the "carbine" was a shortened version of a standard rifle (for instance, there is a very rare "Jungle" version of an M1 Garand, called the T26); the M1 Carbine, however, was a completely different weapon, essentially a more-powerful SMG.
2. Weapon types. Here are your basic groups:
* Handguns
These are your basic pistols and revolvers. Most of the chemically-propelled projectile weapons will max out at about 12-15mm bullets, as anything else is simply too powerful to handle as a pistol-type weapon -- Essentially, the Sternsnacht would be something like a Desert Eagle or a Wildey Wolf, in .50AE or .455 Wildey.
* SMGs
SMGs are special-use weapons, only used by groups like police expecting trouble, vehicle crews who need something smaller than a carbine but larger than a pistol and special-ops troops for CQB or suppressed ops.
* Carbines
Generally either shortened versions of standard rifles (like the Mauser 98K or the CAR/M4), or a "more than SMG" weapon. Carbines go in and out of fashion, sometimes overtaken by SMGs or Assault Rifles.
* Assault Rifles
As the name suggests, these are weapons firing "just under big-bullet rifle" ammo, intended to be used at relatively close ranges. There are two basic schools of thought here, best exemplified by the M16 and the AK47: where the M16 is a rifle that can function as a machinegun, the AK47 is a machinegun that can function like a rifle.
The M16 is designed for precision firing of single shots out to 500 meters over non-optical "iron sights" - it also requires careful maintenance and training to not fail at very inopportune moments.
The AK47, in contrast, has abysmal accuracy out past 75 yards, but has the decided advantages of unearthly reliability in the field, as well as requiring no special training or equipment to use -- where it takes about 5-7 days to "basically" train a person of average intelligence to use an M16 in the field, the same person can be taught the AK in about 4 hours.
* Battle Rifles
From military bolt actions like the Lee-Enfield and the Mauser 98/98K, through the M1 Garand, to the M14, FN/FAL and the G3, these weapons all use big bullets (7-8mm/.30 caliber) to kill things at over 1000 meters, if the shooter is very good and has good optics.
Although relatively heavy (a loaded M1 Garand comes in at over 10lbs), these weapons are reliable and rugged -- you have to try pretty hard to make them fail. Additionally, although these weapons may not be pretty, they are usually 'over-engineered' to the max - having 100+ year old weapons of this category still firing in the field is absolutely possible, if they were well-cared for.
* Hunting Weapons
Although bearing a resemblance to Battle Rifles, this class of weaponry is not as durable as their military cousins, although doing similar damage. They are usually beautifully crafted, and relatively delicate in comparison...They are also several times more expensive as their military relatives: a fine hunting Mauser will currently command over US$1,000, while a perfectly serviceable (but ugly) Yugoslavian Mauser copy from the 1950's runs c.$200 - and is considered overpriced in an inflated market.
* Combat Shotguns
Not Grampa's duck-hunter, these weapons exist to blow doors off hinges, and lay down lethal suppression fires at very close ranges. There are now a wide variety of specialized shells in 12-gauge, from gas and rubber bullets, to slugs, fin-stabilized grenades and "magnesium flame shells" (very impressive looking, but not a lot of applications). There are also highly-specialized rounds like tasers and purpose-designed lock-busters.
Typically, combat scatterguns are in 12-gauge, although some can use 'super magnum' ammunition that would destroy a civilian weapon.
* Individual Grenade Launchers
Usually in the 40mm range, these fire a golf-ball sized grenade (frag, shaped-charge, illumination or buckshot) out to 300-400 meters, and are usually slung under a rifle; police, however, still use the grenade launcher by itself for riot control.
A special class of launched grenade is the rifle grenade. Closer to a hand grenade in effect, these are slipped over the muzzle of a rifle barrel, then fired with a blank rifle round; newer models like the Belgian TELGREN actually have a membrane that seals behind the bullet, removing the need for multiple ammo types.
* Belt-Fed Weapons
From the 5.56mm SAW to the 12.7mm M2HB, these are the bread and butter that make the infantry lethal. One of the primary reasons for the slow adoption of the assault rifle by Nazi Germany was their infantry theory, that being that rifle-toting infantrymen existed to support and protect the belt-fed weapons.
The main combat killer in WW2 was the machinegun, that mowed down troops in the tens of thousands, and these weapons still have that function and ability today, nearly a hundred years later -- witness the Iran-Iraq War in the 80's, and the Eritrea-Ethiopia wars of the 90's.
In CBT, per TRO3025/3026, the 1-to-1 equivalent would be the Man-Pack and Man-Portable PPCs.
* Indirect-Fire Weapons/Mortars
Rarely touched on in conventional CBT rules, mortars in-game/in-tech would have to be deployed en masse against mech units, as part of a carefully detailed defensive plan. If the mechs can be slowed down by mines or conventional artillery or air attack, medium mortars (80-100mm) are effectively AC5's that always hit in the head and shoulder regions of a mech.
Simple, "black-pipe" medium mortars, are capable of being produced in someone's garage with only the most basic of tools.
A trained medium mortar crew can sustain 5 rounds per minute for several hours, up to 10 rounds a minute for several minutes, and can surge up to 20 rounds in less than a minute, but only for short bursts. Since mortars need to be deployed in platoons of 4-6 tubes, you can do the math fairly easily.
So - what's the catch? Mobility: for all their advantages, mortars don't transport well, taking several minutes to set up and take down. They are also inherently inaccurate, since every shot slightly alters the mortar's position. Mounting on a vehicle solves the mobility problem, but cuts into rate of fire due to limited space inside the vehicle, and does nothing to help accuracy.
3. Grenades. Someone discounted the continued existence of the "stick"-type grenade; I find this highly dubious, as the stick gives a handle that imparts leverage to a throw, increasing range by up to 20% or more. This is critical, depending on the type of grenade.
Most combat grenades weigh around 1 lbs.
There are five basic types of hand grenade out there: Offensive, Defensive, Gas, Pyrotechnic, and Special Purpose:
* Offensive
. These are sometimes called "concussion" grenades, as they create a massive blast effect, but virtually no fragments. These are intended to be used at point-blank range when assaulting things like bunker complexes and in urban combat. In fact, the original WW1 German "Potato Masher" grenades were used for this exact purpose, as they have no fragmentation sleeve, and their casing is vaporized in the explosion. The modern Chinese Communist version is a Defensive grenade (q.v.).
* Defensive
. These are the traditional "frag" grenade, and are designed to be used from a prepared position, like a fighting hole or a bunker, where the thrower has significant cover. They have a fragmentation sleeve around the explosive charge, and cause casualties via high-speed fragments. Stick grenades are ideal for Defensive use, as they can be thrown much farther, allowing more use outside of fixed emplacements.
* Gas
. Mostly used for riot control and some special purposes, these are mostly things like CS or CN irritants designed to make misbehaving civilians decide that they'd much rather be at home in the shower.
* Pyrotechnic
. These fall into two categories: smoke and illumination. Smoke does just that - generate LOTS of smoke, usually in a variety of colors, to both screen movement and act to signal other units; smoke is also fired by armored vehicles, something that CBT has never tried to explore, AFAIK.
Illumination grenades light up large areas, either by going off on the ground, being shot into the air or being dropped from airplanes.
* Special Purpose
. These are exotic weapons like 'flashbangs' (low-pressure concussion weapons with lots of flash and noise, but no real "umpf!"), and sonic "screamer" grenades.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 03:25:26 PM by Hammer6R » Report to moderator 75.141.143.231 (?)
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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #92 on: November 28, 2009, 06:13:02 AM »
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Welcome aboard Hammer. Great post on this still very open topic. Been super busy myself with work so I'll have to give this more thought.
In the mean time could you give us insight into standard infantry gear. What exactly does a combat soldier carry into battle on today's battlefield? I'm trying to get a feel for what a typical infantrymen from the 28th century might haul. Thanks!
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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #93 on: November 29, 2009, 01:48:48 AM »
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Thanks, Takiro! Grin
Really, the infantryman's equipment depends entirely on how much value a state puts in its infantry forces; in defense procurement, sex most definitely sells: right now, tanks and UAVs are "sexy" - infantry gear is just negative publicity waiting to happen. I'd hate to think what would happen if we had functional mech's.
I have seen forces from around the world equipped with everything from virtually obscene largess (especially among the Swiss), all the way to "WTF were you thinking?" All infantry are armed with rifles; that should be a no-brainer, but you'd be surprised how often the opening sequence of "Enemy At The Gates" appears in reality.
The US places a thankfully-huge emphasis on infantry gear, so I'll start with that, and adapt to a somewhat lower average. Keep in mind, however, that there are plenty of forces and states out there at the extreme opposite end of the spectrum -- in Liberia and Sierra Leone in the 90's and early-2000's, "infantry equipment" was an AK47, 3 magazines, an old plastic Coke bottle for water, and a box of Cheerios...and usually, the last two weren't anywhere nearby.
***********
1. Uniform. Most forces issue a distinctive uniform; some very poor - but good - armies try to get the troops into a "uniform" of common civilian clothes, and add "uniform" armbands and bandannas. For most established armies, they will look at the terrain they intend to operate in, and create a uniform tailored to maximize concealment in that terrain.
For forces that expect to operate in multiple environments, they will have multiple camouflage patters, but will all be cut to a mostly-identical pattern. For example, in the 80s/90s, the US used the "Woodland Pattern" BDU (Battle Dress, Utility) uniform, then simply changed the color scheme for desert and scrub terrains, as well as snow and night-fighter patterns...Note that no one ever seriously considered painting new color schemes onto uniforms for different environments - although some civilian 'pogues' thought it was a good idea - but issued new uniforms as needed (I issued desert uniforms to deploying troops for Desert Shield/Storm).
In a well-equipped force, the average trooper will be issued 2 - 4 sets of BDUs, plus 2 pairs of boots; the average US combat boot is expected to last c.3 - 6 years in peacetime, c.3 - 6 months in combat. There will also - at least in the US - be 4 sets (minimum) of "skivvies" (underwear, t-shirts and socks) issued -- some other countries have different views on hygene...or are simply poorer.
Note that this does not include dress/office uniforms.
2. Weapons. Generally, most forces strive to standardize one weapon - usually rifle-class - for issue to c.80%+ of its troops. This is directly tied into ease and speed of training and - much more so - into logistics. Where the US now has the M4 and the M16A2 in some units, in my day (the mid-to-late 80s), the M4 existed only as the civilian CAR-15.
All weapons intended for general issue are trade-offs -- highly specialized/personalized gear is usually reserved solely for Special Forces. I'm not going to get into a debate on "what weapon is best?" - that's been done to death too many times to count: put 10 people from 10 military's into one room at the same time, and you'll get 10 different theories over what the "ideal general-issue weapon" should be.
Armies using multiple types of rifles in general issue (say, AKs and FN/FALs) are either in transition from one to another, or are too poor to completely transition to a single type. These are commonly "emerging" nations, or nations coming out of occupation, where the rebels had significant outside support...their logistics departments consume mass quantities of aspirin and Scotch to cope.
Trust me.
The infantryman will ideally carry from 100 to 300 rounds for his weapon (not having handled one operationally, I don't feel confident trying to gauge laser weapon requirements), depending mostly on how well-supplied the force is with ammo. Much more than 300 rounds is basically pointless for general issue (for team leaders like, see below), since most forces - even the poorly-equipped ones - start loading the troops down with other stuff: ammo for crew-served weapons, grenades, batteries, etc.
Most troops will also carry one or two pocket knives, likely a "fighting knife", and maybe a machete, if the terrain calls for it. He - infantry is usually male - will usually carry 2 - 4 frag grenades, and 2 - 4 smokes; sometimes, special grenades like White Phosphorous are available, but have to be used very carefully. Gas grenades are only issued if riot-control is the expected mission, although MP units will have large numbers of these.
3. Body Armor. Body armor goes in an out of fashion, depending on how well it does against bullets and shrapnel. When bullets are mostly copper-jacketed lead, armor is a true lifesaver that the troops will sleep in; OTOH, if armor-piercing bullets are common-issue, most troops will dispense with armor...virtually everyone, though, will retain a helmet of some kind.
Lots of rear-area support forces may have armor issued to them, but unless they are under direct fire, rarely wear them - or have them handy.
Armor, however, is very expensive (c.US$1500/unit), so only 1st World countries usually issue it to all troops.
4. General Equipment. If you've ever seen "Heartbreak Ridge", there is a line where Clint Eastwood says
[paraphrasing]: "Ya got your rifle? You got your boots? Then you can go to war..." Like most movie lines, that line is mostly crap - that gets you Liberia in the early 2000's.
Troops in well-equipped armies will usually have:
* A backpack of some kind
* Some sort of harness to carry things like magazine pouches and canteens
* 1 - 3 uniforms - depending on the environment - but no fewer than 4 pairs of socks, if they have them at all.
* A rifle
* 100 - 300 rounds (sometimes, they even have more than one magazine!)
* A bayonet - yes, they still get used, pundits to the contrary
* 1 or 2 1-qt canteens
* 1 - 3 days of food, usually some kind of barely-edible combat-ration
* A gas mask (issue depends on the environment)
* 25 - 200 rounds for a belt-fed weapon
* 1 - 6 grenades of various types
* 1 - 4 knives/blades of various kinds, usually pocket and fighting knives
* A pocket "Multi-Tool", if they are available
* Batteries of many types for any radios present
* Some kind of rain gear, usually a poncho, but sometimes a complete set of rain coat and pants
* Some kind of "blanket" - anything from a real-wool blanket to a poncho liner or sleeping bag
* Some kind of "entrenching tool" - either a small shovel, hand ax, or a hand pick-ax
* A field jacket - even the desert gets cold
* A 1st Aid kit - usually two combat dressings, some liquid Iodine, a couple of Band-Aides, some surgical tape and some water-purification tablets of questionable value - if you're lucky
* A personal toiletries kit - anything from a bar of soap and a washcloth, to something resembling an executive's bathroom travel kit, with razor, toothbrush, comb, soap, washcloth and towel
* Any special equipment some idiot-child of an ops planner thought you might need
Although the target load weight is supposed to be no more than 1/3 of body weight, man-pack loads of over 120lbs are fairly common.
5. The Load-Out. My typical load-out when expecting to be deployed for real (which happened more than once) looked like this:
* M16A2, with 15 30-round magazines (13 for general combat, 2 for marking targets - these were loaded with nothing but tracers)
* 325 5.56mm "ball" rounds (straight, 'plain-Jane' bullets)
* 100 tracer rounds - 60 in two magazines, the rest spread out as "magazine-enders", to tell me when my mags were dry
* Either 50 rounds for an M60 GPMG (this was all pre-1990), 200 rounds for a SAW, or a 55-round ammo can for a .50 cal HMG
* 2 Frags
* 4 smoke (in up to 4 different colors)
* 6 40mm grenades for M203s
* 4 canteens
* A bayonet
* A Gerber MkII fighting knife
* A K-Bar
* An entrenching tool
* 2 MREs ("Three Lies For The Prince Of One!", "Meals Rejected by Ethiopians!" (this was the height of the Ethiopian Famine))
* A 4-inch Buck Knife
* A military L-shaped flashlight, with red and blue lenses (takes BA-50s/D-cells)
* A military Lensatic compass, along with two drafting protractors and a draftsman's compass
* Toilet kit
* 1 extra uniform, with 2 sets of skivvies and 4 pairs of socks
* 1 Field jacket
* 1 1st Aid kit
* 4 ponchos + 1 poncho liner - one to wear, one to use as a sleeping bag with the liner, two for using to build a tent (shelter-halves are totally pointless outside of a Boy Scout Jamboree)
* PASGT Helmet and ballistic vest
* 2 PRC-77 or SINGCARS radio batteries
* 12 BA-50s (military D-Cells)
* 2 notebooks (6"x4"), each with a plastic, microwave-safe ruler in Imperial and Metric
...And understand - I volunteered for what the Marine Corps used to call "scratch" companies: ad hoc light infantry companies made up from the "anti-social" guys in the Combat Support Element (Supply, MT, Maintenance, Cooks, etc.) -- actual infantry carried AT-4 anti-tank rounds, night-vision gear, laser target designators, LAWS rockets, mortar rounds, radios -- and the kitchen sink. I never carried any of that gear, even though I did carry SAWS and M60s on occasion.
And for Special Forces, it gets much, much worse:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2495590497786506130&hl=enThe load-out above is what I consider the ideal to go into combat...and I fully expected to expend most of my ammo, and lose half of my gear before relief/resupply.
6. Strategy - Bean-Counting and Combat Logistics. The Marine Corps uses a basic, interactive square referred to in 'Marine-Speak' as the "MAGTF Concept", for "Marine Air-Ground Task Force".
It is primarily a "battalion combat team", referred to as a "Marine Expeditionary Unit" or MEU. This is a battalion of infantry (c.1000 troops), plus a 'short' battalion of Combat Support (c.600-1200 troops, depending on mission), an Air Combat Element (c.500, operating 2 light, 8 medium, 4 heavy and 4 attack helicopters), and a c.200-man Command Element; other air squadrons of fixed-wing attack planes - usually Harrier jump-jets - would either be attached on-ship, or would be stationed on an aircraft carrier.
By itself, this unit deploys with supplies sufficient (hopefully) to fight on its own without resupply for up to 30-days -- after that? Well, AKs only take 4 hours to train on......
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 11:37:28 AM by Hammer6R » Report to moderator 75.141.143.231 (?)
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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #94 on: November 29, 2009, 07:47:59 AM »
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Wow, fantastic detail Hammer. That was just what I was looking for. Wink
Quote from: Hammer6R on November 29, 2009, 01:48:48 AM
All infantry are armed with rifles; that should be a no-brainer, but you'd be surprised how often the opening sequence of "Enemy At The Gates" appears in reality.
Great movie, yikes!! Shocked
I'd imagine that situation could exist for Planetary Militia (Liao anyone) but for House Line Infantry I think you'd get a rifle.
Quote from: Hammer6R on November 29, 2009, 01:48:48 AM
The US places a thankfully-huge emphasis on infantry gear, so I'll start with that, and adapt to a somewhat lower average. Keep in mind, however, that there are plenty of forces and states out there at the extreme opposite end of the spectrum -- in Liberia and Sierra Leone in the 90's and early-2000's, "infantry equipment" was an AK47, 3 magazines, an old plastic Coke bottle for water, and a box of Cheerios...and usually, the last two weren't anywhere nearby.
Such proliferation in todays world but would it mirror the BattleTech universe? I know that during the Outer Reaches Rebellion early settlers made their own primitive weapons but not every planet has fought such a conflict in a very long time. I mean the Age of War and the Reunification War were hundreds of years ago as well. The Periphery Uprising and the Amaris Coup are much more recent conflicts but they really don't affect the Houses. And I doubt the Houses would encourage their citizens right to bear arms.
Batting more of this around later!
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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #95 on: November 29, 2009, 09:43:12 AM »
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Welcome to the boards Hammer!
Very detailed and informative posts.
Ciao
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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #96 on: November 29, 2009, 03:07:23 PM »
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Thanks All!
Quote from: Takiro on November 29, 2009, 07:47:59 AM
I'd imagine that situation could exist for Planetary Militia (Liao anyone) but for House Line Infantry I think you'd get a rifle.
Such proliferation in todays world but would it mirror the BattleTech universe? I know that during the Outer Reaches Rebellion early settlers made their own primitive weapons but not every planet has fought such a conflict in a very long time. I mean the Age of War and the Reunification War were hundreds of years ago as well. The Periphery Uprising and the Amaris Coup are much more recent conflicts but they really don't affect the Houses. And I doubt the Houses would encourage their citizens right to bear arms.
An important thing to remember is that people are still people -- even though it may be 800 years from now, even if it's a frontier planet (just look at Australia and New Zealand's history), you're going to have infantry doing something, be it disaster relief, riot control, parading on Landing Day, or whatever. You're going to need infantry to suppress everything from miners/workers strikes to cattle barons fighting range wars.
Don't discount "Balkanized" worlds, either -- one of the things that annoys me no end in CBT is that all worlds are basically homogenized: there is a Planetary Governor, and a population that never seems to get out of joint with the ass-hats across the valley lat-drilling the water out of their artesian system - and that's that? Hogwash. Humans are not going to leave Earth in the Great Exodus to rub elbows and cozy up with the people they left Earth to avoid - there should be plenty of worlds in every House that look like Europe in 1914: everyone ready to kill their neighbors at the drop of a hat, House and League notwithstanding; the Combine and the Confederation won't do it as openly, but the tensions will be there.
The Amaris Coup/Civil War will magnify these things a million-fold: the reason that Yugoslavia self-destructed after Tito's death and the collapse of the Soviet Union was that there was no longer an external hammer threatening the locals with smashiness when they decided to settle centuries-old scores; the best the major 1st world nations (i.e., House and SLDF troops) could do was to sit in forts and hope their troops didn't get sniped. Same thing happened in Somalia. And Liberia. And Sierra Leone...
That said, a lot of equipment procurement theory depends on who you intend to fight: are there ass-hats across the river? What about space pirates? How strong is the criminal element (Pablo Escobar had a fully uniformed, armed and equipped 500-man army at one point)?
Other things to consider are industrial development and planetary pride -- an indigenous small-arms industry is fairly simple to pull off, but generates a whole lot more pride in the population than an automobile plant.
Another thing is "national pride": your "planetary militia" might be laughable crap compared to a House or SLDF unit, but they are the hometown boys and girls - looking snappy in locally produced uniforms and weapons has the insensible side effect of making people far more ready to party with their hard earned cash in taxes for defense spending.
********
So, let's create a hypothetical world in one of the Houses - we'll call it...Khaffeenistan (I'm drinking coffee as I type this).
For the purpose of the exercise, we'll say that the planet is a backwater farm world, but has a population of around 10 million, planetwide. Although there are no real internal problems, space is a dangerous place, especially after the whole Amaris thing...
Okay, so we - the History and Team Sports Departments of the local Khafeenistan Association of Community Colleges - have been chosen to form the Planetary Forces Command by the newly-arrived House Governor-General, Lady Bambi Bubblegum. She has a private bodyguard detail, but that doesn't relate to us - she can leave at any time...we can't. We might get a small mech garrison in a few years, but that's not a guarantee. She's a dilettante House Noble, and knows virtually nothing about economics or warfare, but she can provide a reasonable amount of money to us. So - what kind of Forces do we need?
Well we're an agrarian world, so that's good, historically speaking -- well-educated farmers and ranchers tend to make the best soldiers. We'll say that half the planet is water that needs to be heavily and expensively purified before drinking due to a naturally-occurring bacteria - it may be a water-world, but it's not an ideal one. There is a variety of terrain, so we'll need forces that can operate in those spectrum's.
We don't really have any heavy industry - there is a single Henry Ford-style "one-stop-shop" auto plant that has built-in steel-work foundries and machine shops to build the occasional car, truck, tractor and bike (motor and pedal), and there are a couple of small companies that make hunting weapons and ammo, but nothing on a truly industrial scale. An actual mech-production facility is likely decades off, if ever.
First, what kind of army do we think we'll need? There are six types to choose from, and each will demand varying types of equipment levels and investment:
* Parade Armies
Parade armies exist for just that one reason: to look good on national/planetary holidays, and when standing guard duty at the local Presidential Palace. Parade armies aren't really good for anything but polishing chrome - when the shooting starts, they usually find somewhere else to be, with a quickness.
While they have standardized weapons that (usually) go BANG! on command, they don't really train with them, except for Close Order Drill. Think lots and lots of gold trim, frilly epaulets, and shiny brass EVERYWHERE - mud only gets involved if someone slips on a rainy day.
They are relatively easy and cheap to equip, though.
Parade armies exist because, dang it!, we're a COUNTRY, and countries need armies! Think of the modern-day army of Togo - which possesses precisely two ex-Soviet T-55 MBTs...that don't run.
* Police Armies
These armies are essentially very large SWAT teams, designed to keep the locals in check. Usually paid personally by a charismatic despot, these armies are essentially private bodyguard forces.
Note that these can sometimes be of moderately good quality and equipment, and might actually be able to be turned into a Real Army at some point.
Think of the Iraqi Republican Guard Corps.
* Political Armies
These come in two flavors: A) armies that run countries and B) armies that function as a major organ of civil government. Sometimes mistaken for Police armies, Political armies have far more say in the local political process.
Type A: Nigeria
Type B: Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guards
* Real Armies
The US, UK, France, etc - Lots of tanks, artillery, supplies, etc -- basically, the whole shebang....and stupid-expensive, probably more than we and Bambi combined can come up with.
* Fiduciary Armies
These are armies formed exclusively to generate cash for the country be renting the component units out to other polities. These don't have to be real armies, but it sure helps.
* Militia Armies
This is probably what Khafeenistan will be stuck with -- we don't have a lot of prior-service people to act as trainers, so we only have history books/movies and team sports to go on. Since the schools have marching bands, Close Order Drill isn't that much of a stretch. Infantry work is going to be pretty basic, but we can probably get some motorized cavalry with the ranch-hands doing the driving.[/list]
All in all, no matter what we do, if the Bad Guys invade next year, we'll have a functional army in 3 - 5 years, if they're not all killed in their barracks; otherwise, we'll be doing well to have a passably-good 'Real Army' in 10-20 years of peacetime.
*********
So -- how big should Khafeenistan's army be? Well, we've established a planetary population of c.10 million. In the 1980's, the USA had about 1.5 million regulars, and about as many Reserves/National Guard, not counting police units -- call it c.3 million under arms, of a population of 250-300 million, or about 1 - 1.2%. With a planetary population of c.10 million, we should be able to field about 100,000 troops with little trouble. That means that we need equipment for 150,000 to allow for surges in recruiting and loss of gear (US$ amounts are FY2000, adjusted approximately for bulk purchase):
Item Name:
BDU's (includes skivves)
Helmet (with Cover)
Beret
Combat Boots
Rain Pancho
2 Canteens with ALICE Gear
Collapsible Cot
Standard Bedding
Gas Mask
Extra Filters
Ka-Bar Knife (with sheath)
Entrenching Tool
Mess Kit
Binoculars
Pop-up Flares
Grenades, Frag
Grenades, Smoke
Rifle (+ Bayonet)
Ammo (300rnds+Magazines)
Machete
QTY per
Item Unit
2
1
1
2
1
1
1
1
1
2
1
1
1
1
10
2
2
1
1
1
Price per
Item Unit (USD)
$40.00
$50.00
$1.00
$20.00
$5.00
$50.00
$10.00
$5.00
$50.00
$20.00
$10.00
$3.00
$2.00
$10.00
$3.40
$10.00
$10.00
$200.00
$20.00
$5.00
Total
$80.00
$50.00
$1.00
$40.00
$5.00
$50.00
$10.00
$5.00
$50.00
$40.00
$10.00
$3.00
$2.00
$10.00
$34.00
$20.00
$20.00
$200.00
$20.00
$5.00
Standard Kit Total:
$646.00
Therefore, for 150,000 sets:
Item Name:
BDU's (includes skivves)
Helmet (with Cover)
Beret
Combat Boots
Rain Pancho
2 Canteens with ALICE Gear
Collapsible Cot
Standard Bedding
Gas Mask
Extra Filters
Ka-Bar Knife (with sheath)
Entrenching Tool
Mess Kit
Binoculars
Pop-up Flares
Grenades, Frag
Grenades, Smoke
Rifle (+ Bayonet)
Ammo (+ Magazines)
Machete
QTY per
Item Unit
300000
150000
150000
300000
150000
150000
150000
150000
150000
300000
150000
150000
150000
150000
1500000
300000
300000
150000
150000
150000
Price per
Item Unit (USD)
$40.00
$50.00
$1.00
$20.00
$5.00
$50.00
$10.00
$5.00
$50.00
$20.00
$10.00
$3.00
$2.00
$10.00
$3.40
$10.00
$10.00
$200.00
$20.00
$5.00
Total
$12,000,000.00
$7,500,000.00
$150,000.00
$6,000,000.00
$750,000.00
$7,500,000.00
$1,500,000.00
$750,000.00
$7,500,000.00
$6,000,000.00
$1,500,000.00
$450,000.00
$300,000.00
$1,500,000.00
$5,100,000.00
$3,000,000.00
$3,000,000.00
$30,000,000.00
$3,000,000.00
$750,000.00
Standard Kit Total:
$96,900,000.00
EDIT: Well, I feel stupid - prices for ammo corrected. *headdesk*
So.....a cool US$100 Million in 2000 dollars to equip 150,000 people as Basic Infantry. If we scale it down to 10,000 troops, that's only c.US$6.5 million.
That's pretty cheap, overall, even at a Hundred Million Cabbages.
On top of that, while Khafeenistan can already build light trucks for cavalry and scouting operations, and can probably make SMGs, machineguns and mortars in fairly short order, actual artillery and battle tanks are going to be a 10-year project to develop internally, if they can be developed at all - Bambi may have to bat her lashes at Daddy-kins and ask for a couple of heavy-industrial plants...
For the House/League, this is where politics enters the game, as having a friendly planet willing to trade space for storage arsenals can come in very, very handy.....
************
So, overall, it doesn't require a megaton of investment at the planetary scale to outfit forces, especially with Major House support - even corporations can get into the game at this level -- once the factories start rolling, you'd be amazed at how quickly worker and "small merchant" lobby groups form to keep government buying more production, since that guarantees jobs...And in dangerous times, it just makes good sense to over-produce, institute a Draft to impart basic training to a force, and retain volunteers as a full-time cadre force of professional NCOs and Officers...
Hope that helps.....
« Last Edit: December 26, 2009, 05:40:15 PM by Hammer6R » Report to moderator 75.141.143.231 (?)
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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #97 on: November 29, 2009, 05:12:30 PM »
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Absolutely fantastic stuff but lets talk turkey. God knows I've eaten enough of it this weekend. Grin
You've pretty well covered the Planetary Military but what would a House field when it comes to infantry on an interstellar level in the 28th century?
Each Successor State likely has its own spin on Line Infantry not to mention all of its different forms. I.E. Jump Infantry and Mechanized Infantry.
I wonder if I could extend your Army Templates to the Great Houses. For example, could Liao Infantry be a Political Army tasked with the advancement of Capellan ideals across the Confederation? Could Davion Infantry be little more than a Parade Army at this time serving to bolster national confidence after the War of Succession?
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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #98 on: November 29, 2009, 06:23:26 PM »
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Well, let's see.
Overall, most of the Major House armies are going to be very well-equipped and trained Police armies, in comparison to the SLDF, especially that of the Combine.
Confederation armies will be closer to a Type-B Political Army.
The LCAF is going to be mostly a Parade Army, but one with enough unevenly-spread spurts of extremely high quality that they can survive the first phases, until they start to firm up.
The Davions, I see as the British in 1914 -- in reality a Parade Army, but kidding themselves that they are "just behind the SLDF" in quality.
The FWL is the hardest to categorize, but overall, I actually think that they are closer to a Real Army than all of the others. The FWL's problems lay in confusion at the top -- Real Armies can save you, but without direction, they will flounder on the offensive...just not as badly as other armies.
At present in the Periphery, the Taurians are a microscopic (in comparison) hyper-Real Army in extremis - fortunately, they have a solid strategically-defensive doctrine, and are not out there to conquer anyone. Look for them to try to stay out of the fighting and stage a massive rebuilding of their fleet and Mech forces.
The Canopians have a good little army, mostly a weird variant/fusion of the Parade and Police Armies (kind of a "Social Army"), although their Special Ops, IIRC, are first-rate.
The OWA, except for its Aero Arm (YIKES! Shocked ), is definitely a Parade Army - and not a very good one, at that.
The RWR had a Real army - just like the Nazis, if their army was crap, they wouldn't have lasted as long as they did - but that is now completely destroyed, the survivors either dead, in prison, or serving as mercenaries shoring up House armies that haven't fought a real war in over a century.
As to equipment among the Houses, they will be fielding gear two or three steps below the Hegemony, albeit in much larger quantities - that translates to mechs and tanks as well as infantry gear: in a modern context, I see the Hegemony infantry fielding the Steyr AUG, while the Houses are using original-model M14's and FN/FALs (although the Confederation will use an AK-equivalent); by comparison, the SLDF would have M16A2s. (I know, it's a REALLY rough comparison...)
As to weight and bulk of infantry equipment, I just don't see a lot less of either among military's with a real supply system -- military gear is big and bulky for very good reasons, namely that they are assumed to be abused, and have to be ruggedized appropriately - using civilian gear is a good stopgap to fill a hole, but there are too many negative tradeoffs for a military to go that route for very long.
As a result, one of Murphy's Immutable Laws of Warfare comes into play: the lighter and more compact the Infantry's gear becomes, the more gear will be handed to the Infantry to carry.
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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #99 on: November 30, 2009, 04:38:17 PM »
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What about advanced armour (like the Future Force Warrior)?
Or Lasers?
And I like the idea of mortars being used in masse. Roll Eyes
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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #100 on: November 30, 2009, 11:30:46 PM »
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Quote from: Ice Hellion on November 30, 2009, 04:38:17 PM
What about advanced armour (like the Future Force Warrior)?
Or Lasers?
And I like the idea of mortars being used in masse. Roll Eyes
Not enough data for me on the first part, but I would expect that with fewer SLDF troops leaving with Kerensky, fewer scientists would leave, also, so I don't think R&D will suffer -- comes down to how much the Hegemony can spend on armor.
As to laser infantry rifles, while I see a lot of distinct advantages, I don't think that widespread deployment will cut the infantry's load down by much; by the end of both World War's, infantry in Europe were more interested in carrying hand grenades than they were in rifle ammo.
As to mortars, while I am a major tube-head myself, I also recognize that they have severe disadvantages - while certainly better than nothing, heavy (120-160mm) rocket and conventional rifled artillery are infinitely preferable above battalion level...or lower, if you can get them:
http://books.google.com/books?id=I_fFkOS4b_4C&pg=PT26&lpg=PT26&dq=rocket+jeep+world+war+2&source=bl&ots=gUPcXaPFwf&sig=RT_1szcSxbiXPp46Gf_wp2TWf3w&hl=en&ei=pZsUS5T9GJCxngfI_v3OBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CCcQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=rocket%20jeep%20world%20war%202&f=falsehttp://media.photobucket.com/image/rocket%20jeep/rinselman/misc%20other%20jeeps/id_mb_w_rocket_full.jpg Report to moderator 75.141.143.231 (?)
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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #101 on: December 01, 2009, 05:07:37 PM »
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The Future Force Warrior is the nowadays intent by the USA (it has other names in other countries) to produce an advanced armour.
For mortars, it is just that I always dreamt of using lots of them in CBT.
And thanks for the links, I didn't know US Army had mobile Katyusha/Nebelwerfer.
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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #102 on: December 07, 2009, 06:23:31 AM »
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Quote from: Ice Hellion on December 01, 2009, 05:07:37 PM
And thanks for the links, I didn't know US Army had mobile Katyusha/Nebelwerfer.
MLRS babee...! Seriously good stuff written here Hammer. A note on the Half Rifle; while nothing is written on it in the CBT mainstream for all intents in my story Bruce's weapon of choice is as follows;
The product of years of Hegemony small arms design the Colt Half Rifle uses advanced semi conductors to amplify it's beam strength at max poer to that of standard issue Rifles of twice the weight. It is light weiging about as much as an M4 carbine and hs no moving parts. Highly resistant to weather, mud etc; just make sure you clear the optics before you shoot, see below. Constructed of advanced composites you can butt stroke some one with it and then take a shot without worrying about damage to the optics. Colt HR's have two firing modes, Beam for long distance approx. 1200 yards with light armor penetration and pulse; rapid fire cpable of defeating most body armor and light vehicle armor with enough time. Just dont try to be accurate beyond 200 yards. Beam mode tends to burn through obstuctions like leaves, windows, small animals etc, while pulse will liberate all its energy in what ever it hits.
With the SLDF/ Hegemony bogged down with hundreds of 'Mech, tank, and small arm types I just wanted to give them something that's simple, straightforward and works.
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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #103 on: December 07, 2009, 05:25:59 PM »
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Quote from: blacktigeractual on December 07, 2009, 06:23:31 AM
MLRS babee...!
MLRS are not the same as Katyusha/Nebelwerfer.
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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #104 on: December 07, 2009, 11:23:40 PM »
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Quote from: Ice Hellion on December 07, 2009, 05:25:59 PM
MLRS are not the same as Katyusha/Nebelwerfer.
"MLRS" is both a specific and a general classification, meaning "multiple launch rocket system" - in that venue, the classification includes both LRMs and SRMs, as well as lower-tech weapons, like the Katyusha, its direct descendant the BM-21 and the Nebelwerfer...
...Now, what I want to see is a RAW, BABY!!! Grin
