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Author Topic: Technical Readout: SLDF  (Read 1852 times)

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JPArbiter

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Technical Readout: SLDF
« on: July 01, 2012, 05:46:20 PM »

While Defying the Permaban in place for the battletech forums, I cam across an interesting topic/request for a SLDF Era TRO.  given that this is the year of the Star Leauge i found that it would fit with the 2012 product lineup, if only where it not for the lack of time left to get such a Boook made and printed.  I wanted to know what you all thought of such a hypothetical product, and whether or not it would succeed.

here is my list of Pros and Cons

Pros:
1) It would bring together as a source all of the units used in the SLDF era, particularly if they went from Reunifacation to Amaris Coups, and act as a 1 stop shop for those looking to create SLDF campaigns
2) it would give a large quantity of SLDF Era Mechs a TRO home where they currently do not have one (The Ramapge, Sling, Talos, and Alfar come to mind)
3) it would give a TRO home to named but so far unseen units (The Rising Star, Cameroon, and SLDF Osprey come to mind)
4) TROs are far and away the best selling items in B Techs Cataloge

Cons
1) The Unseen- this far and away is the biggest liability to such a project, and needs to be resolved before any such product is considered.  any solution also needs to be accepted by the fans universally before such a product comes to completion.  for example, if TPTB decide to do a 100% art Retcon of the unseens (something Herb has been threatening recently) Fans need to accept that and move on, for this product may be the premeir for it.  if it is "no original unseen no purchase" then the product is doomed to fail from the start.
2) To Much Materiel covered by other books.  there are SLDF era Units seen in TRO 3050, 3058, and 3075.  further MOST of such a TRO would be a near strait reprint of TRO 3039 Which Brings me to
3) Cost Cutting Art Recycling- if this TRO recycles art from other sources too much, it will be a huge detraction to many players.
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Dragon Cat

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Re: Technical Readout: SLDF
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2012, 06:44:39 PM »

I can't see them making one.  I for one would support it, I even wouldn't mind the reworking of the Unseen art

but... as you said more and more of the SLDF era units are appearing the other sourcebooks

Then again with this we may even finally get a look at the Golden Lion
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Bad_Syntax

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Re: Technical Readout: SLDF
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2012, 08:47:35 PM »

While Defying the Permaban in place for the battletech forums

Welcome to the club!

I thought up an idea for a TRO Star League a while back on the official forums, and people liked it, but I didn't really have the motivation to do it.

I *love* the Star League and would love to see anything more on it.  Heck, I've been thinking of using my site to print out a TRO with all the royal variants in a single PDF, with record sheets and all, using unseen artwork in many cases.  Not sure if it would be worth my time though, maybe I'm wrong.

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Takiro

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Re: Technical Readout: SLDF
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2012, 11:13:39 PM »

I love all things Star League but a TRO gives me a luke warm fuzzy not a I want it now type feeling. We have so many different sources that pretty much cover all the designs and their variants so I'd prefer to concentrate on other more interesting materials.
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JPArbiter

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Re: Technical Readout: SLDF
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2012, 01:34:24 AM »

Then again with this we may even finally get a look at the Golden Lion

Golden Lion?  Where is that from?

Welcome to the club!

and like you I am sure that at least a third of the "offenses" were unearned, and placed by over reaching mods who want the internet to be a bright happy place where no one expresses a real opinion ;)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 01:36:42 AM by JPArbiter »
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Re: Technical Readout: SLDF
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2012, 06:11:00 AM »

Golden Lion?  Where is that from?

Davion Battleship mentioned at the Battle of Chaolome I believe during the 1st Succession War.
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Dragon Cat

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Re: Technical Readout: SLDF
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2012, 08:23:46 AM »

Golden Lion?  Where is that from?

Davion Battleship mentioned at the Battle of Chaolome I believe during the 1st Succession War.

First Prince Alexander Davion's command ship during the Davion Civil War and beyond (I think), Golden Lion was actually the name of the ship we have no idea of the Class there's been much speculation it was the Davion Black Lion equivalent but never a straight up answer
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Really, as long as there is an unbroken line of people calling themselves "Clan Nova Cat," it doesn't really matter to me if they're still using Iron Wombs or not. They may be dead as a faction, but as a people they still exist. It's not uncommon in the real world, after all.

Centurion13

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Re: Technical Readout: SLDF
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2012, 03:32:50 PM »

C'mon, guys.  I am the last person in the Universe to step up and defend that cozy co-mingling coterie of frenzied fanboyz, but I see it like this:

(1) they are still writing the rules for the gol-darn game.  They're, um, busy.

(2) Yes, SLDF stuff is showing up everywhere else in bits and pieces and with good reason - it's a side show.  The projected number of fans who will actually use the way-back machine to play in the SLDF era is small.  Reeeeeeealy small.  As in, not enough to support a product, not even a PDF, so refer to (1). 

Every single demo they give, most of the new books they print, are pointing forward in time, towards a Dark Age and subsequent New Renaissance.  Yeah.  Bet that's the name they will give it.

(3) If they did produce such a thing, they would have to dig deeper into the era, produce a hell of a lot more writing in that era (in keeping with what we see in 'current' TROs) and package it up.  They would have to consider the effect that these changes in BT's past will have on the current storyline and what's already in the pipeline.  You guys can talk all you want about creating a new TRO, but the truth is, the further you go back in time, the harder it is to shoehorn the product into the current storyline. 

There's just too much history.  No single writer, or even stable of writers, has it all in their heads.  And even if they did, see (1).

(4) For some reason, the current holders of the license absolutely hate WarShips.  I think if they could, they would grandfather it.  I don't know why and I don't care why, but if you were to press me on the issue, I would have to say that their presence tends to really suck attention and credibility away from massed units of BattleMechs.   As in, why send a battalion of 'Mechs down when you can bombard from orbit?  Why ship large formations of dropships and such when a WarShip can interdict and destroy them with relative ease?  In other words, the important work of enforcement can be done with WarShips and transports with infantry.  The 'Mech is neither one, exactly - it's not credible to take over a planet of billions with a couple of dozen 'Mechs, and they don't really qualify as boots on the ground.

Get rid of WarShips, however, and you are pretty much forced to go the 'Mech Invasion route.  At least that is the way I see things.

(5)  If you as a fan wanted to get all the SLDF machines under one roof, sure.  Go for it.  If you wanted folks to use it, you might pay for new art.  But due to the fluffy, piecemeal nature of their introduction, the SLDF machines will never quite be done as a group.  The writers are always gonna use them for 'historical interest' pieces.

(6)  Furthermore, the more the company ramps up the technology/arms race in general, the more you are going to find, retroactively, that the SLDF machines incorporate this 'new' tech as well.  It's new to you and me.  It may be new to the writers.  But everyone accepts that the Star League was a gazillion light years ahead of 'rediscovered' tech coming to light.  That holds true no matter what they come up with in the next twenty years of real time.

Your SLDF stuff is always gonna be behind the curve.  It's doubly frustrating, because the Star League gear is affected by events happening in 3085, 3132, etc.  Every advance in the here-and-now is gonna be accompanied by someone saying "yeah, well, the Star League had those, but with one less critical slot - and it made espresso, too"

Nice dream, but the execution would be a freaking nightmare.  Especially since we don't have access to the stuff the company has, and (1).

Cent13
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 03:43:08 PM by Centurion13 »
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MadCapellan

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Re: Technical Readout: SLDF
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2012, 05:06:41 PM »

(4) For some reason, the current holders of the license absolutely hate WarShips.  I think if they could, they would grandfather it.  I don't know why and I don't care why, but if you were to press me on the issue, I would have to say that their presence tends to really suck attention and credibility away from massed units of BattleMechs.   As in, why send a battalion of 'Mechs down when you can bombard from orbit?  Why ship large formations of dropships and such when a WarShip can interdict and destroy them with relative ease?  In other words, the important work of enforcement can be done with WarShips and transports with infantry.  The 'Mech is neither one, exactly - it's not credible to take over a planet of billions with a couple of dozen 'Mechs, and they don't really qualify as boots on the ground.

Get rid of WarShips, however, and you are pretty much forced to go the 'Mech Invasion route.  At least that is the way I see things.

"Warships>'Mechs, so why 'Mechs?"

Battletech is a game about giant, stompy robots, for people who enjoy giant stompy robots.  Warships were originally intended as some mysterious aspect of the Star League, and were not something the rules or universe were originally designed to support.  Unfortunately, this meant as the universe was fleshed out, the topic of Warships were brought up from time to time, but as they were, very little thought was put into how they would effect the game or universe.

The very first appearance of Warships in the game were as broken, patched on rules for the original Aerotech that made them a form of hyper-armed super Jumpship.  A number of designs were created for TRO: 2750, very few of which made any tactical sense, and all of which were overwhelmingly powerful by Aerotech standard, but that was fine, because they were all extinct aspects of the game's mythological dark age of technology.  If the Star League could stomp a BattleMech regiment or six flat in a matter of minutes with their naval power, what did it matter?  No one opposed them because they could stomp everyone flat!  The game was about 3025, and the awe-inspiring power of Warships was just a pretty piece of fluff for the background. 

Unfortunately, when the Clans were introduced, the genie was let out of the bottle.  While the authors of that era could have had the Clans have scuttled all their WarShips and buried the whole subject then and there, it was decided (logically, but not without detriment to the universe) that the Clans still all had their SLDF Warships!  While that in and of itself was logical, the Clans were also fated not to conquer the entire Inner Sphere despite overwhelming orbital superiority, requiring an even more illogical fix.

"The Clans have Warships, but they don't use them to fight, it's dishonorable."

To the Clans, it seemed, Warships were something of a display trophy to inspire fear and awe, like a parade float covered in spikes and severed heads.  Despite their ability to be used to instantly win the campaign for Terra and subjugate the entire Inner Sphere, (at least barring the Inner Sphere's whole-sale use of nuclear weapons, something that wouldn't just overshadow big stompy robots, but totally render pointless a skirmish scale tactical game), the Clans were arbitrarily declared to culturally dumb to make use of their own instant-win buttons.

Of course, this was not to last.  Logic dictated that no matter how culturally backward the Clans were, someone was going to eventually get desperate enough to use a Warship in combat.  What's more, a growing number of fans were awed by the awesome firepower of these ships and demanded to see them used and see more of them.

Enter Battlespace.   Now we had a brand new, but no better thought out, set of rules for Warship combat because there was a vocal enough portion of the fan base who really wanted to be able to fight with WarShips despite them being required to pass through a battleship-sized logic hole to not render the rest of the universe completely invalid.  The thoroughly unsuited hyper-powered leviathans of TRO: 2750 were dusted off and brought out to supply the Clans, and to a lesser extent, Comstar, with the units necessary for play. 

Unfortunately, this just increased the interest and demand in Warship combat in the universe.  Players wanted to see fleet battles, and wanted the Great Houses to get in on the action!  Unfortunately, in a universe where building 108 BattleMechs and assigning pilots to them is a herculean task for a interstellar government, and an attack by the same number of BattleMechs decides the fate of entire worlds, there really wasn't much room for any sizable naval fleets unless WarShips were to completely overtake 'Mechs as the force of decision in-universe; an unacceptable option, because the game universe exists primarily as a device for selling a game about giant, stompy robots.  Alienating the popular giant stompy robot games' fans to create what would be a rather generic space battle game wouldn't serve the company's economic interests. 

So we ended up with miniscule flotillas of Ãœber-WarShips being assigned to each faction.  This compromise didn't please the hardcore WarShip fans who continued to demand whole fleet battles, yet still managed to create massive ripples in the bread-and-butter portion of the universe, where these WarShips began interdicting major planets, cutting off ground troops from orbital reinforcements, and generally doing things which are totally logical and render 'Mechs impotent. 

I know a lot of fans like to complain about how the Jihad devalued the BattleMech because major engagements were being decided by nuclear weapons, but WarShips had already devalued the 'Mech when they came into play in the Civil War era. 

The WarShip genie had to go back into the bottle.  The Jihad destroyed the vast majority of them and their manufacturing facilities.  The 'Mech would have its crown again.  The WarShip fans would lament, but ultimately they were a small minority of fans of a universe built around human beings dueling with illogical, bipedal walkers, and the fans of giant, stompy robots could not be put out, nor could the illogical economic principles that allow militaries of fewer than ten-thousand such devices to decide the fates of hundreds of worlds. 

Ultimately, WarShips as written cannot help but overshadow BattleMechs.  The game and the universe as written cannot reconcile both large WarShip fleets and worlds being conquered by 36 BattleMechs.  If FASA, when writing the WarShip entries for TRO: 2750, would have had the foresight to have made them smaller and more in scale with the rest of the universe's combat units, we probably could have seen full battle fleets return in a way that didn't upturn the apple cart.  Alternatively, if Catalyst decide at some point in the future to toss the current illogical economic model for BattleTech and allow the nations of the universe millions, not thousands, of BattleMechs, WarShip fleets could conceivably exist without rendering the BattleMech pointless, albeit not without the cost of MechWarrior's status as Demigod. 

My hope for the future is that pocket WarShips will finally allow BattleTech to get it's naval aspect right.  If we allow each nation-state a small number of the current Warships of the Destroyer and Frigate classes to serve as Battleships, and build fleets around them with pocket WarShips serving as the cruisers, destroyers and escorts of the fleet, then we conceivably could have naval engagements that don't instantly invalidate small-scale ground combat operations. 
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Gabriel

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Re: Technical Readout: SLDF
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2012, 05:18:43 PM »

I for one would like one so lets do it.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 11:52:10 PM by Gabriel »
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Re: Technical Readout: SLDF
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2012, 06:42:39 PM »

MadCap, that is easily the most reasoned and well thought out explanation and answer to the WarShip issue I have seen.  At first, whilst reading your post I was thinking NO NO NO!, being one of the dark WarShips lovers.  However, by the end of your post I must admit I was swayed and think this answer should become the standard.
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MadCapellan

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Re: Technical Readout: SLDF
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2012, 06:54:28 PM »

MadCap, that is easily the most reasoned and well thought out explanation and answer to the WarShip issue I have seen.  At first, whilst reading your post I was thinking NO NO NO!, being one of the dark WarShips lovers.  However, by the end of your post I must admit I was swayed and think this answer should become the standard.

Thank you, sir.  I exist in a bit of a strange place in the Battletech fandom: I am an Aerotech fan, but I think WarShips are boring.  Years of playing Jet Fighter and TIE Fighter growing up conditioned me to the thrill of the seventy-five-ton crotch rocket with PPCs hurtling through space mere seconds away from instant, horrifying death.

It is unfortunate for WarShip, or should I say space naval combat fans that FASA's original design for WarShips were completely out of step with the way they had designed the rest of their universe.  The universe and it's WarShips are so competely incompatible that the only way they can be reconciled is to rescale one or the other.  It seems extremely unlikely that Battletech will alter its existing politico-economic dynamic for the sake of the comparatively smaller number of WarShip players.
Ergo, the only way forward for WarShip players is to accept what you want on a smaller scale. 

The good news is that we are starting to really get some good classes of pocket warships finally.  MMMhmmm, Vengeance DC!
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 06:55:47 PM by MadCapellan »
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masterarminas

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Re: Technical Readout: SLDF
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2012, 07:03:43 PM »

Have you seen my WarShips without Capital Weapons?  I believe I start it here, and it is on Classic BattleTech as well.  The concept is a simple one:  there are no capital or sub-capital weapons.  WarShips still exist, but have to mount bays with the same weapons as every other unit.  There is only standard armor; these juggernauts can't carry even ferro-aluminum due to the bulk (handwavium, I know, but it fits!).  As a result every class is about 50% smaller across the board and there is NO orbital bombardment.  Nor do WarShips outrange aero-fighters and DropShips.  I put the cap on size at a flat million tons, so you can't build a ship any heavier than that.  Check 'em out sometime.

MA
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Re: Technical Readout: SLDF
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2012, 07:40:44 PM »

I don't want to engage in further thread drift here folks but what the hell. Warships are but a part of the combined arms BattleTech arsenal with the Mech as king. Warships are on a different scale than the Mech. Yeah they can annihilate targets on the ground but they can't take objectives intact. Its a shame that LAMs, Marine units, and space Mechs are not a major developments with the reintroduction of warships. I'd like to see hull fighting and boarding actions with fighters all in too close for warships to fend them off themselves. Of course that would add numbers of Mechs to the universe another thing that waters their special niche to some. MadCap makes good points but I would still like to see settings with massive numbers of warships and that is why we have OurBattleTech. So many wonderful angles to play. So its all good to me.
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Rainbow 6

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Re: Technical Readout: SLDF
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2012, 01:46:19 PM »

Well put MadCap, thats the best post on Warships in the BT universe i've seen.
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