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Author Topic: The Missing Units of the SLDF: A Critical Reexamination  (Read 8193 times)

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Knightmare

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Re: The Missing Units of the SLDF: A Critical Reexamination
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2012, 07:01:15 PM »

Rather than use "destroyed" or disbanded divisions as training cadres, these units were probably used to repair combat losses on the fly as Chieftain sustained horrendous losses.

We know Kerensky used the Republic to refit his troops after the Periphery Uprising, but reorganize is probably a better description to describe what occurred. Kerensky also more or less abandoned the Republic during his march to the Hegemony (as the Commonwealth's "invasion" of the Republic illustrates - they simply filled a void left by the departing SLDF troops), so I'm not even sure where your training cadres would have provided training.

With the House Lords supplying little in the way of support, I also highly doubt the SLDF would have been able to utilize the safety of the member-states to host training cadres. So if Kerensky was using disbanded or "destroyed" units to train new replacements these troops would have to cycle at the very minimum, back to the Republic.

Which, as I mentioned earlier seems unlikely due to the actions of the Commonwealth, but also the shear distance between the Hegemony/Republic and the ships required to do so - ships that are desperately needed to prosecute the invasion. These are resources and travel times the SLDF couldn't count on or commit to once Chieftain began. A round trip between the Republic and the front is quite an amount to tack onto even a short training period. 

(Transports are also an interesting question since Kerensky is specifically stated as having the SLDF scour/buy all available transports in preparation for the Exodus. At some point during the invasion the SLDF's transports were beginning to dwindle.)

As for the large reserve command, where was the reserve command located, organized and equipped? Answer: the Terran Hegemony.

Amaris's seizure of the Hegemony cut the heart out of the SLDF's logistic network. Loss of the Hegemony would have thrown the entire support apparatus into chaos while shattering its very foundation. Keep in mind, most of the SLDF's major stores and replacements would have been in the Hegemony, and cycled out as needed in a situation reminiscent of the Reunification War.

Remember, the SLDF was designed to fight in a Reunification War-type scenario, with a secure rear area feeding campaigning armies a steady stream of supplies and replacement troops. 

While the SLDF did have hundreds, maybe thousands of bases throughout the Inner Sphere they were basically supply waypoints connecting all the way back to the Hegemony. After all, Kerensky stripped every base of consumables on his way to the Republic and then again during the trip back towards to the Hegemony. These consumables were all that remained of a once-powerful support network now dried up.

One hit wonders.

The SLDF had neither the money, nor the manufacturing, training or support structure to replace anything they used until the Hegemony was reconquered.   

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Gabriel

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Re: The Missing Units of the SLDF: A Critical Reexamination
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2012, 12:50:38 AM »

Very True Knightmare
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drakensis

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Re: The Missing Units of the SLDF: A Critical Reexamination
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2012, 02:37:25 AM »

Page 116 of LoT1 contains an extract from Aaron DeChevalier's diary where he mentions disbanding divisions below 50% strength to send their men and material to units that were in better shape. He cites 110 divisions and 61 regiments as completely destroyed in the Periphery with losses of upwards of 1.5 million KIA, WIA and deserters. While a SL Division was probably 10,000-20,000 strong, those numbers suggest that the losses in those units were pretty high.

He also mentions that the rate of desertion was extremely high, potentially hundreds of thousands.
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Rainbow 6

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Re: The Missing Units of the SLDF: A Critical Reexamination
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2012, 04:54:13 AM »

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Black Warriors were training troops on Circinus throughout the Coup but were left behind when Exodus took place.
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lrose

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Re: The Missing Units of the SLDF: A Critical Reexamination
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2012, 06:54:52 AM »

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Black Warriors were training troops on Circinus throughout the Coup but were left behind when Exodus took place.

That's from FM:P.  The Black Warriors were former SLDF troops who became mercs.  The broke their contract with the FWL when Kenyon Marik refused to aid the SLDF during the Coup, raided several FWL supply depots, went to Circinus, trained the volunteer regiments and got left behind due to a communications error.
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Knightmare

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Re: The Missing Units of the SLDF: A Critical Reexamination
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2012, 07:32:05 AM »

Thanks drakensis for finding the canon reference.

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FirstStarLord

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Re: The Missing Units of the SLDF: A Critical Reexamination
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2012, 03:07:18 PM »

Just looking over Liberation of Terra as well. Kerensky still had ten training centers in the member states in addition to those he set up in the Rim Worlds. He did not seem to have any problems getting new recruits or moving them around. The major concern was bringing the still existing divisions up to strength.

Interesting enough, DeChevalier's diary entry on p. 116 gives a sense of just how big the casualties of the Periphery campaign were. Those 1.5 million casualties he mentions are limited to only the divisions destroyed outright. He only then goes on to talk about all the additional divisions that were disbanded by heavy casualties, the deserters, and how many more units need to be brought up to full strength.

That the SLDF was able to go from such a poor state of affairs in 2770 to over 300 full-strength divisions and 230 independent regiments by 2772 is a sign that they were not nearly as incapable of reorganizing and recruiting as previously believed. DeChevalier also mentions that many divisions that would be disbanded would still exist as paper formations for training and administrative purposes, which would explain how the Regular Army was able to feed in new troops to the front once the Hegemony Campaign started.

Thanks for bringing that to my attention drakensis!
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Ice Hellion

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Re: The Missing Units of the SLDF: A Critical Reexamination
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2012, 03:24:21 PM »

Your analysis makes sense Knightmare.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 05:51:26 AM by Ice Hellion »
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Knightmare

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Re: The Missing Units of the SLDF: A Critical Reexamination
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2012, 09:50:03 PM »

Guess we need more information on the subject. Here's hoping Volume II addresses the fate or disposition of the universities outside of the Hegemony during the liberation. Maybe we'll find out exactly how much or how little they were able to contribute to the war effort.
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Blacknova

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Re: The Missing Units of the SLDF: A Critical Reexamination
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2012, 10:02:41 PM »

That or FM: SLDF
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Re: The Missing Units of the SLDF: A Critical Reexamination
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2012, 10:19:42 PM »

That or FM: SLDF

Well, the FMs typically showcased an education section so maybe. Yea, that would be a good guess.
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FirstStarLord

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Re: The Missing Units of the SLDF: A Critical Reexamination
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2012, 07:00:05 PM »

To give everyone further perspective to the SLDF's post-war rebuilding efforts, let's breakdown troop levels in 2780 versus 2784. A reoccurring statement in sourcebooks over the years is that the campaigns from 2764 to 2779 reduced the SLDF from 486 divisions* to 113 divisions. By the time Kerensky implemented Operation Exodus, he had 127 divisions and at least 100 independent regiments. Of the divisions, 108 went on the Exodus†, 17 were listed as "unknown" status, and two went over to the Successor states (One to the Lyrans, the other to the Capellans). The independent units broke a little more in favor of staying in the Inner Sphere, only 63 went with Kerensky.

The math seems to show that the SLDF was rebuilding on average 3.5 divisions per year, plus a certain number of independent units. That is a rather decent amount considering the limited resources they had available to them, although at that rate it would have taken them 93 years to reach their pre-2765 troop levels. I doubt the House Lords would have allowed them to continue rearming forever, but at the same time it would have been very hard for the Successor States to break that kind of force unless all five coordinate an assault, a highly unlikely scenario for a variety of reasons.

*I have never been able to reconcile the oft-repeated figure of 486 divisions. Was it a reference to the 451 listed divisions plus the independent units? Possible, but 304 divided by 9 is 33.77, which gives a total of 484.77, and that still does not exactly match up. Again fuzzy math and all that.


†In a small number of these divisions the forces split over the Exodus question. In some cases individual regiments chose to remain behind and joined House armies, in other cases it was entire brigades. The Crater Cobras mercenary unit was formed from two brigades of the 250th Battlemech Division that rejected the Exodus, but in spite of this considerable loss the 250th was still intact enough as a unit to make the journey to the Pentagon.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 11:58:14 PM by FirstStarLord »
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Knightmare

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Re: The Missing Units of the SLDF: A Critical Reexamination
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2012, 10:19:01 PM »

One of the things I'm going to suggest in light of the new canon sources being provided is to disregard the SLSB entirely until the second Liberation of Terra II book is published. I'm assuming (yikes!) that the second book will detail everything short of the actual Exodus trip. So if we're lucky, or really good, we'll get the opportunity to see a final "true" accounting of the SLDF after the Civil War and disposition of its units.

I should really be using descriptors like "hope" and "maybe", because quite frankly there's no promise until the book's in print.

I might be in the minority here, but IMO new sources trump old sources. If the questions hasn't been addressed in a new source then it hasn't been answered. Simple as that. No point in trying to paint the edges of the map ourselves if the map maker has a new one on the way.

But that's just how I roll. Stress free and all that jazz.
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Re: The Missing Units of the SLDF: A Critical Reexamination
« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2012, 10:36:23 PM »

I totally agree.
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Re: The Missing Units of the SLDF: A Critical Reexamination
« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2012, 02:37:30 PM »

Me too.
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