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Author Topic: The Problem Of Reasonable Logistics  (Read 9970 times)

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Hammer6R

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The Problem Of Reasonable Logistics
« on: January 12, 2011, 01:47:23 PM »
So, the Logistician in me has been trying to get out. Apologies if this comes across somewhat disjointed.

One the the longest-standing issues I've had with canon is the low production figures for 'mechs. For roughly the 3025- to about the 3039-era's, I could suspend disbelief effectively based on c.250 years of all-out war.

SD/SC is different.

The problem is the Battlemech itself. Given its predominance on the battlefield, facilities have to exist in sufficient number, and have an output sufficient to at least maintain combat loss rates, especially given the prevalence of combat in-verse. Yet, I look through the data - both SB's, scenarios and novels - and I do not find the necessary numbers. There simply are not enough plants out there, with enough assembly lines, running enough output, to maintain interstellar-level numbers of 'mechs.

Therefore, I would like to propose the following, in-house for SD/SC:

* On every planet with a population of 10 million or more, there should be at least one mech assembly facility, at the very least, on the scale of the one from MW3.

* These facilities would have anywhere from 10 to 50 assembly bays - tending towards the lower end - and a couple of associated research labs.

* This gives concrete targets for raider forces and pirates, over generic "loot" like raw ores, processed material billets, and the traditional jewelry and knick-knacks.

* Likewise, any planet with a population of 50 million or more should have a SMALL Aerospace fighter assembly line - no more than 30 to 50 airframes per year, tops.

* Dropship, Jumpship and Warship production should be limited to worlds of 100 million or larger.


...So, why am I proposing this? The BT universe - no matter the exact flavor - is a violent place, and in our AH 2800 setting, there are FAR more mechs and Warships than in any other setting before 3050, even in the Periphery...

...And especially the Periphery -- those battlemech divisions didn't come out of thin air, and the Taurians and Canopians - at the very least - likely know the locations of one or two of Amaris' hidden mech plants, each. On worlds in those two states, the "little plant" model would be all over, as soon as they can get them built.

I hope this is as coherent as it seems to me at the moment.....
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Ice Hellion

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Re: The Problem Of Reasonable Logistics
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2011, 02:24:03 PM »
What about production of parts?

And I think you are underestimating the power of automatic/automated(?) plants.
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
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Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
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The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Takiro

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Re: The Problem Of Reasonable Logistics
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2011, 04:55:59 PM »
You know what I was thinking about, what is the lifespan of a Mech? For military vehicles they seem to have incredible endurance and staying power. I'm talking about entropy here which I hope doesn't take us off topic. But once you build one it seems to have a lasting impact. So if you have a ton of factories making these could you ever hope to destroy them all? Is there a managability we have to maintain?

Don't forget also weapons of mass destruction will be released on an unprecedented scale during the 1st Succession War.

And we are still setting up the infrastructure of the InnerSphere circa 2785 for Threat Assessments, so this is a very good topic to discuss.
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Ice Hellion

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Re: The Problem Of Reasonable Logistics
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2011, 01:53:16 PM »
Quote from: Takiro on January 12, 2011, 04:55:59 PM
You know what I was thinking about, what is the lifespan of a Mech? For military vehicles they seem to have incredible endurance and staying power. I'm talking about entropy here which I hope doesn't take us off topic. But once you build one it seems to have a lasting impact. So if you have a ton of factories making these could you ever hope to destroy them all? Is there a managability we have to maintain?

Just look at what happened in the official timeline.

'Mechs can be kept in stores for years (Castles Brian and such), I guess once shut down the Fusion Reactor can send the small amount of needed energy forever or nearly.
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Hammer6R

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Re: The Problem Of Reasonable Logistics
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2011, 02:13:37 PM »
Quote from: Ice Hellion on January 12, 2011, 02:24:03 PM
What about production of parts?

And I think you are underestimating the power of automatic/automated(?) plants.

Excellent points! I was in kind of a fugue, so I totally missed that.

I would say that plants on the lower-end worlds (c.10 million) would be focused on parts production, and might have the capability to produce new mechs, but only by assembling parts, vice actually producing higher-end components like complete fusion reactors.


Quote from: Takiro
...what is the lifespan of a Mech? For military vehicles they seem to have incredible endurance and staying power. I'm talking about entropy here which I hope doesn't take us off topic. But once you build one it seems to have a lasting impact. So if you have a ton of factories making these could you ever hope to destroy them all? Is there a managability we have to maintain?

Don't forget also weapons of mass destruction will be released on an unprecedented scale during the 1st Succession War.

Oh, not at all! In fact, I would postulate that this is one of the main reasons for the widespread use of WMD's -- if a lot of these facilities are well-defended, or simply hard to get at, forces under pressure and without a good operational strategy may start throwing nukes out of sheer frustration.

As to lifespans, it's really a function of how well the skeletal structure is made and maintained, and how much it weakens through oxidation over time; everything else is replaceable, and given the physical forces involved, I think materials technology will have advanced enough by 2800 that there should be no question about non-combat wear and tear.

As to economic manageability, every business, everywhere, in all times, LOVES military contracts - it's steady work, it usually pays well, and stimulates distaff support industries - companies at level making parts to make parts, ad nauseum...Now, masses of equipment don't equal a quality military, but how much of the leadership outside the TR in 2800 knows that?
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Takiro

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Re: The Problem Of Reasonable Logistics
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2011, 04:05:21 PM »
Well you make good points on production parts but different realms have different industrial philosophies. The Draconis Combine and Capellan Confederation have command style economies which centralizes the means of production, a good example is Luthien. Now the other Houses are more lax with their restrictions but perhaps it is a trait of the Neo Feudal infrastructure, hub manufacturing. After all if every world builds a Mech that makes a lot of potential problems for you to control.
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Gabriel

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Re: The Problem Of Reasonable Logistics
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2011, 11:57:45 PM »
All Valid Points. The Star League had unspecified amounts of Castle Brian's and others of that ilk, not to mention storehouses,proving grounds and hidden bases.
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Ice Hellion

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Re: The Problem Of Reasonable Logistics
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2011, 03:28:01 AM »
Quote from: Hammer6R on January 13, 2011, 02:13:37 PM
As to lifespans, it's really a function of how well the skeletal structure is made and maintained, and how much it weakens through oxidation over time; everything else is replaceable, and given the physical forces involved, I think materials technology will have advanced enough by 2800 that there should be no question about non-combat wear and tear.

And if you mothball them in specific areas with few oxygen?

Quote from: Takiro on January 13, 2011, 04:05:21 PM
Well you make good points on production parts but different realms have different industrial philosophies. The Draconis Combine and Capellan Confederation have command style economies which centralizes the means of production, a good example is Luthien. Now the other Houses are more lax with their restrictions but perhaps it is a trait of the Neo Feudal infrastructure, hub manufacturing. After all if every world builds a Mech that makes a lot of potential problems for you to control.

Only if you don't control the storehouses :D

And a planned economy is different from  centralisation of the production means.
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Hammer6R

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Re: The Problem Of Reasonable Logistics
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2011, 12:10:41 PM »
*nods at Ice Hellion* Absolutely. In WW2, the Soviet Union - the closest physical analog to the Inner Sphere we have on Earth - maintained a rigidly planned economy, but widely distributed its production assets specifically to increase survivability in the event of a massive attack.

Quote from: Ice Hellion on January 14, 2011, 03:28:01 AM
And if you mothball them in specific areas with few oxygen?


Don't know that I'd store them in vacuum; I think back-filling with a neutral gas like Argon at a slight overpressure would be better, long-term.

Quote from: Takiro on January 13, 2011, 04:05:21 PM
Well you make good points on production parts but different realms have different industrial philosophies. The Draconis Combine and Capellan Confederation have command style economies which centralizes the means of production, a good example is Luthien. Now the other Houses are more lax with their restrictions but perhaps it is a trait of the Neo Feudal infrastructure, hub manufacturing. After all if every world builds a Mech that makes a lot of potential problems for you to control.

Actually, I'd expect almost every Capellan world to have a mech factory at some level, because they have virtually no strategic depth. While some worlds will have more extensive facilities than others, Sphere-wide, It just makes sense to have some form of minimal parts manufacture on every one of your worlds that can support it...
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Ice Hellion

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Re: The Problem Of Reasonable Logistics
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2011, 03:15:40 AM »
Quote from: Hammer6R on January 14, 2011, 12:10:41 PM
Don't know that I'd store them in vacuum; I think back-filling with a neutral gas like Argon at a slight overpressure would be better, long-term.

I was just throwing an idea, if neutral gas makes more sense, then go for it.

Quote from: Hammer6R on January 14, 2011, 12:10:41 PM
While some worlds will have more extensive facilities than others, Sphere-wide, It just makes sense to have some form of minimal parts manufacture on every one of your worlds that can support it...

And they have, since you can't expect centralised factories to be able to provide what every world needs.
For an illustration of this, just look at the scholarship problems in the Federated Suns Periphery worlds.
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

wolfcannon

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Re: The Problem Of Reasonable Logistics
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2011, 08:50:06 PM »
forgive me but, correct me if i am mistaken, but according to the House Handbooks and the 1st periphery book, do not the various realms produce close too two regiments of mech yearly?  i know the Taurian Concordant in 3025 produces 264 mechs yearly.(per production output by a defunct website Alan's Taurian Concordant Webpage) here is the break down of the TDF Mech Production

Quote
48 LCT-1V Locusts produced at MacLeod's Land and Taurus by PPL and TTI
48 STG-3R Stingers produced at MacLeod's Land and New Vandenburg by PPL and VMI
48 WSP-1A Wasps produced at Perition and Taurus by PPL and TTI
20 CMD-2D Commandos produced at Illiushin by VMI
8 HCT-3F Hatchetmans produced at Taurus by TTI
12 GRF-1N Griffons produced at Illiushin by VMI
8 MHL-1X Marshals produced at Taurus by TTI
16 TDR-5S Thunderbolts produced at Taurus and Pinard by TTI and VMI
6 ARC-2R Archers produced at New Vandenburg by VMI
20 WHM-6R Warhammers produced at Taurus and Pinard by TTI and VMI
30 MAD-3R Marauders produced at Pinard, Taurus, and New Vandenburg by PPL, TTI, and VMI

and this is per all know info at the printing of the housebooks and periphery sourcebook.


http://replay.waybackmachine.org/19990221235319/http://members.tripod.com/~Skoldi/milpro.html
his reasoning and explanations for the production output

http://web.archive.org/web/19990429105916/members.tripod.com/~Skoldi/tc.html
Alan's webpage
« Last Edit: February 15, 2011, 08:52:06 PM by wolfcannon »
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Re: The Problem Of Reasonable Logistics
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2011, 08:52:02 PM »
Fasanomics...
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Re: The Problem Of Reasonable Logistics
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2011, 11:22:38 PM »
Quote from: wolfcannon on February 15, 2011, 08:50:06 PM

Quote
48 LCT-1V Locusts produced at MacLeod's Land and Taurus by PPL and TTI
48 STG-3R Stingers produced at MacLeod's Land and New Vandenburg by PPL and VMI
48 WSP-1A Wasps produced at Perition and Taurus by PPL and TTI
20 CMD-2D Commandos produced at Illiushin by VMI
8 HCT-3F Hatchetmans produced at Taurus by TTI
12 GRF-1N Griffons produced at Illiushin by VMI
8 MHL-1X Marshals produced at Taurus by TTI
16 TDR-5S Thunderbolts produced at Taurus and Pinard by TTI and VMI
6 ARC-2R Archers produced at New Vandenburg by VMI
20 WHM-6R Warhammers produced at Taurus and Pinard by TTI and VMI
30 MAD-3R Marauders produced at Pinard, Taurus, and New Vandenburg by PPL, TTI, and VMI

and this is per all know info at the printing of the housebooks and periphery sourcebook.



These numbers are not canon - they are someone's guess.  The only solid numbers for battlemechs are from the HDSB,  HLSB and HMSB.  IIRC from the HLSB the CC builds 400 mechs per year (only the production per factory is stated, not the types but much of this can be inferred from other sources).  The HMSB lists specific production totals for the number and types of mechs produced at each factory- I think the numbers come out to around 400 mechs.  The HDSB only has a limited amount of information- the Corean plant on New Avalon builds 130 Valkyries per year and there are numbers for the factory on Quentin ( but I don't have my books handy to look up what they are)

So each house builds at roughly 4 regiments of mechs in 3025 (The LC, DC and FS numbers are probably close to the FWL and CC numbers)

As for the periphery we know from Periphery 1e the MOC builds about 60 mechs per year- roughly 10 shadow hawks and the other 50 are Wasps, Locusts and Stingers (but there is no specific breakdown of how many of each)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2011, 07:40:52 AM by Knightmare »
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wolfcannon

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Re: The Problem Of Reasonable Logistics
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2011, 08:38:56 AM »
if you take that out of content with the rest of what i posted then ya you can infer that.   but i already stated that in my entire post.  hence i also put his webpage up to validate what he reasoned.   
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Re: The Problem Of Reasonable Logistics
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2011, 11:35:43 AM »
The additonal problem is that not every world with a signifigant population may no be suited to build mechs on planet, owing to the lack of materials and/or subsidiary parts companies.

Davout73
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