OBT Forum

if anything this 33rd Century Time Jump would create a very interesting place where tech ratings once again get unified into a single group.  the reason why it bothers me so much though is that it seems to show that Catalyst just does not want to deal with the "Dark Age" era simply because of fan backlash over how Wizkids mishandled (and even I say they mishandled it) the property between 2002 and 2006.

there are good characters and an interesting premise here, and if you ask me it would be terrible to wash over them after a two year development cycle.

There's really only two major things that concern me with Battletech anymore.

1. Can we ditch the overly visible misogyny already?

and

2. Can we ditch the overly visible misogyny already?

can you elaborate please?

+1 I'd say there's been pretty equal split between sexes especially as the games continued

+1 I'd say there's been pretty equal split between sexes especially as the games continued

Not anywhere nearly approaching equal treatment, though there's likely a strong argument to be made for much closer to equal exposure. Equal exposure is only part of the mix, and in my opinion, the less significant part of the mix.

Let me preface this with full disclosure. This is a huge hot button issue for me, particularly with the online BT community (full acknowledgement that said community is in no way a statistically representative). This very issue is what drove me to recently begin selling off the large majority of my remaining BT collection and begin the transition of my interest to other games. I'm keeping my digital files and my core books (for any MM play, if I ever have the time to get back to it). But I think that BT and I have parted ways for the forseeable future. What made me go that drastically? Well, the simple answer is that I really just don't need the books anymore, and I want to offload some detritus. The more complex answer is that seeing a small minority of the online fan base either express support to the idea that a character who was raped should marry her attacker (with a freelancer expressing support for such a concept via PM) or at least begin to express support for the awful tactic of "slut/rape shaming" (Why didn't she fight back enough? It's obviously her fault. Oh, and a forum moderator expressing support for this very concept via PM.) (No, I'm not a fan of using that sort of derogatory term, but that is what the phenomenon is called.) This led me to start pondering some things that I've had floating around in the back of my head about BT and its treatment of the sexes (to say nothing of its already poor treatment of the dynamics and variety of human sexuality). So I went on a rather long lore crawl, digging back through my old and new tomes, keeping a much more alert and critical eye than I had previously. The conclusions I reached (and they are exactly that, my conclusions, in no way meant as fact) weren't very flattering, even compared to other former FASA properties.

Let's hit a few examples. Off the top of your head, find any female member of a military organization that receives enough "face time" to quality as at least a minor character (sourcebook or novel) that doesn't rather quickly have one of the following stereotypes locked onto her:

1. Sweet, sweet, horrible cheesecake. Ah, the Nasty K's of the world. Because "future of the 1980's" really wasn't in reference to the technology! If you're not sure of what cheesecake means (or can't see why Natasha is one of the biggest offending examples), I'd say go browse about for a more detailed explanation of the term. If you don't buy the concept, then this post probably isn't for you. There must be something in the Wolf water supply, as we also get "blessed" with plenty of other examples of this via Ranna, Maeve, and Anastasia. Oh, and pretty much everything written about the Canopians like ever, with the exception of one specific author's contributions. Because it's not a Canopian section until we mention the sexy sex or the catgirls or mermaids!

2. Locked into some sort of entirely co-dependent story line with her male love interest. See Ranna K (who gets just enough face time to have to hem and haw over Vlad or Phelan, then disappear to fluff Siberia, only to show up long enough in the Jihad to make sure she gets killed), Isis Marik (who seems to exist solely for the plot purposes of being a bauble to pass from one royal family to the next), Danai Centrella-Liao (this is even more terrifying, considering her "relationship" is based around rape), etc.

3. Creepy, creepy child bride overtones. Melissa wasn't the only one, just one of the more recent, and definitely one of the most creepy. She also falls very well into the previous co-dependent category. I've never quite understood how fans talked about how "strong-willed and independent" she was. Most of her time on screen seems to be to nod, smile, and curtsy whenever Hanse wanted her to do so.

4. Get relegated to a non-combat or support role. Because everybody knows that girls can't fight! Examples here would be all over the place, but off the top of my head: Avanti's Angels comms officer, Archer's Avengers officers (more than one), Teddy K's wife (who started out fairly strong in Heir to the Dragon, only apparently to end with a still unexplained suicide), Rianna Rose, even the sainted Lori Kalmar Carlyle (who apparently is only good enough to be in charge after all the significant male officers were killed), and so on.

This last one is really four separate categories, but it seems to be that any combination of the three will be applied if a woman does happen to manage to be an effective leader or combat soldier.

5. The "hard as nails old crone" / The Ice Queen / "Just one of the boys you know, but with breasts" / The giant PMS caricature. Yeah, this one absolutely plagues the Steiner females, particularly if they are close to the Archonship. Katrina, Katherine, Nondi, ah, and let's not forget the original Katrina and of course Viola. Because nothing says strong female character like flying into a rage and killing hordes of your own people! Let's not forget that generally, some big strong man needs to come save the Steiner women after some other man has "done them wrong." I would have added the whole "crazy woman" archetype, but really, crazy just seems to be its own special category of tripe in BT.

Now, if you're still reading, you've probably already thought of some that don't hit one of these hot buttons of mine. They are out there. Can you find them anywhere near in proportion to a relatively stable, effective male character? Not likely. In fact, I had trouble finding enough to count on two hands. I really thought and hoped that this would be something that improved in the Dark Age (as a few more well-rounded female characters seemed to show up). I no longer hold out much hope for that. Belle Lee, who should have been given a whole fuckload more face time, seems to be that perfect mix of "mysterious PMS caricature." I had high hopes for Marthe Pryde, as she seemed entirely content to buck most of those trends, right up until she suddenly decided that she needed to knock boots with Vlad and use pillow talk to get a man to go do what she wants. I just can't tolerate it anymore. BT seems to either fall into the TTHCWI (Then The Hot Chick Walked In) or "She's just like a guy, right? But curvier!" most frequently, and it shows few signs of stopping. As much as I've enjoyed the CGL-era material more than any other, there hasn't been a course correction here. Shadowrun clearly worked to step away from from those stereotypes (at least under prior development staff, as I haven't followed the material from the last two years very closely), as did Earthdawn, though in much smaller amounts and mostly after it left FASA's hands. BT seems to have held onto them, and in some cases, even expanded their usage. It's sad, it's disappointing, and the tacit approval of this sort of character development by the fan base (and in my opinion, by the development staff and a not insignificant amount of freelancers as well) is just something I really don't want to have in my games anymore. To be honest, it isn't something I want to support monetarily, nor something I want in my life period.

There's a billion other little things I'd change, but this one? Yeah, it is the deal-breaker for me. I realize that some folks would point to AUs as the answer, but I have no desire to develop one, and many of the ones I've encountered (yes, even here) seem to embrace such character treatment rather than reject it. I get that it works for some folks, and more power to you if it strikes your fancy. It simply doesn't work for me anymore.

as far as Danai Liao Centrella, frankly I think you are only scratching the surface of that character, considering the entirety of Principles of Desolation was about overcoming her sexual assault.  I have a few lady friends who read Principles after relating the stories of thier own assaults to me and they have said "I wish I was like her."

Yeah, I had pretty much the opposite reaction. As did the (few) female fans that I know that read any of the novels. The assault is completely unnecessary, horribly handled, and another of the many examples found in literature of exploiting rape as a convenient plot device. Obviously opinions will vary on this, but this is likely a point we won't agree on. Danai would be the character I was commenting about at the beginning. I'd also strongly disagree that the whole book was about her overcoming her sexual assault. I found that the assault was treated far too superficially, reactions (her own and others) were very inconsistent, and a very long research period with some treatment counselors or survivors groups would have been strongly recommended. I'll put this as politely as possible, but there is nearly no one in my immediate female (predominately female, but not exclusively) who hasn't been a victim of this horrific event. Yes, I'm including myself in that category. I found the treatment of it incredibly callous and poor, most specifically to additionally throw in the soap opera-ish treatment of incest. Most authors, particularly more progressive authors, will tell you that if you can't find a way to to avoid triggers or superficial treatment, this is a subject best left out of your tale. While Desolation mostly avoided the former, I didn't find it avoiding the latter at all.

As I said, you'll find exceptions (and the Chaos Irregulars is one shining example that has more than one or two exceptions). As I stated above, these are opinions, not facts. There isn't true or untrue to be found here. I found Ariana to be a really spectacular example of the "just one of the boys" syndrome, and Tara Campbell to be one of the worst cheesecake examples of the Dark Age material (followed up closely by Katana and surpassed by Anastasia). She's entirely co-dependent, hopping from one failed relationship (whether failure to launch or failure to land) to the next, all while entirely playing off the TTHCWI as some kind of positive. There's also some very creepy overtones between Campbell and several different characters that seemed completely unneccessaryI really, really wanted to like her. I found it impossible. The Cloud hair didn't help. One female character I found least problematic was the one that showed up far too little in the Dark Age, that being Alexi Holt. It's a real shame that she only popped up for Bonfire and Target of Opportunity. Again, this is likely a point of disagreement. There are certainly those female characters that don't end up in support roles. Unfortunately, I find most of those characters to quickly fall into one or more of the other caricatures. Additionally, misogyny is exactly the right word here. The cheesecake treatment of many characters alone falls into the sexual denigration of women aspect of misogyny. The far too common occurrence of a female character needing male assistance also falls into the usual misogynistic power structures and the denigration of women component. Active hatred of females isn't the end all and be all of misogyny, with a great deal of passive bullshit being a huge part of the misogynistic culture that exists currently in far too many places in the real world, let alone in fiction.

Yes, there's an imbalance in fiction. The level of it varies based on the particular setting, franchise, author, etc. I find that BT's imbalance is too great. You don't. I don't believe we'll find any kind of middle ground there.

we could go on and on but that deserves another thread of it's own...  still a fascinating topic I must give a thought to.  in the case of Danai Liao, the event was meant less to characterize her then it was to characterize Caleb Davion drowning in his own dilusions.

and the people who were advocating Danai marrying or somehow becoming dependent on Caleb HSD, screw that.  I want to see her ally with Julian Davion and Callendre Kell (another great Female Lead, neither cheesecake, nor dependent on Julian, nor one of thew boys in anything but the most superficial way) to retake the suns, and when she gets an opportunity to slit his throat, she walks away cause by then she will not need to.

This viewpoint I could live with, marrying Caleb is just wrong morally and story wise I don't think that would be a good idea

I also agree the balance of the sexes needs its own topic

It's ironic that the one MWDA author (Ilsa Bick) who knows about mental illness did not write the Caleb character. However she did do Katana Tormark and the characters around her, some of whom are very twisted.