OBT Forum

Also, I did want to note that I do understand that productions of designs in an AU is dependant upon whether the AU creator wants them there.  I am just wondering more, if the industrial capacity of the Star LEague Era hadn't been bombed to absolute oblivion, and the Houses were able to find and capitolize on Star League Technologies, would there have been a need to keep these models i nproduction, or would new designs have been introduced in your opinion?  Also I want to note  that I love those 'Mechs mentioned.  The nostalgia benefit alone is huge for me.  But seeing the possibilities of the units actually hitting a table if an AU was pursued in any direction, what is your opinion on the matter?

Also, I understand the touchiness of this potential subject, and do not want to incite any kind of a flame war(I apologize if this may happen)about the glory of the UnSeens vs them no longer available.  What I am looking for here is specifically a "What do you think would happen?"  or a "What would be healthier for a potential AU?"

The other, kinda touchy subject is that of LAMS, as I seem them as being very versatile, highly specialized units that still have production in limited numbers in canon 3025.  Would the technology advances spur on new LAM design as well?  Would the Inner Sphere understand the potential utility of these units enough to make an effort to build them should they have the knowledge and technology to do so?

For the LAMS, I do not really see them as combat units i nand of themselves.  I see them as the ultimate recon unit.  Versatile, as in they can be used in a pinch anywhere if needed, but tbh, a unit that can go to ground ,and later break for space without the need of inherent transport does offer some possibilities, especially with advanced sensors, mapping, comms, etc.  Such a small unit(A lance here or there) makes insertion, and has no need for a dropship to hit dirt in order to GTFO.  Yes, an escape plan and use of La Grange points may be necessary, and the ride wont be comfortable, but they have their place if utilized correctly.  The problem seems to be that noone wants to utilize them correctly. In an age with ECM and stealth armor and such during the 3060s + there seems to be lacking the specialized units that, under fluff pretenses, exist simply to get in, get out, and have the capability to self extract like a LAM gives.....

Again, specialized role, versatile hardware.  The LAM can, if necessary, engage lesser vehicles.  It's not expected that a 25 ton LAM, or lance thereof, goes head to head with a heavy lance, but in that case they shoot and scoot, at incredibly high velocity, while painting a planet's defenses and giving the potential invaders, or raiders, a look at what is nearby without landing a sizable force.  Now if only a LAM could have a Battle Armor troop bay...

Now, to say that boots on the ground ,and the specialized recon/black ops units do the same things with less expensive equipment is true.  It's just the only really viable use I could find for them, as they are FAR too frail to be used as a front line unit one way or the other.  And as militaries are prone to do, if they make that strategic plan come together and work, using LAMS, they'll develop a doctrine around them.  Plus there's the rule of cool to consider.

I hate LAMs... There said it I feel better already

I think should production have survived LAMs would have but not as line units more special forces/raiders

I also think tech would likely have advanced with them or on a tangent ie LAM weapon think along the line of the ProtoMech AC or the such

As Knightmare pointed out the Spectrals were a step in the right direction - add a hundred years and maybe... Just maybe... They would get better

I also hate LAMs I think I mentioned this

As for the unseens I couldn't see them happening if the Royals are still around then again a few designs probably would never have surfaced if that were the case... Great thing about AUs unseen reseen doesn't matter much.  Unless your drawing them they never disappeared stat wise anyway

Understood and apologies for coming off that way JP.  Please, allow me to rephrase and change tune a little.

In a military Industrial Complex in which you have very old designs that are proven at a certain level, would it be more practical to try and redesign the 'Mechs that currently exist during a technological revival, or would it be of more use to the states employing these designs to retool for new designs, built from the ground up with the technologies now present. 

Should one consider that the eldest designs are proven and therefor a leap pad for production, or would it make a difference going from Scavenger Tech to Shiny New Tech for the complete redesign of an existing unit to replace the older models?

If the Helm Core had been found in the 2900s, would the proliferation of new designs have been as significant as say, the Clan Invasion?  Would LAMS have the new 'Mech smell and a use be found for them so they can be made?  In looking at what is happening even during the Succession Wars, we see the design of the Cataphract, the advances and design of the Raven, Hell even the Vindicator was designed post Star league if I recall correctly.  That's just in the CC.  I just wonder, mainly, at the proliferation level of newer designs when the knowledge is there to make it happen.

As for the later years I am not nearly as knowledgable on, are newer designs, from a lore perspective, flavor of the months when the tech is freshly discovered?  Many designs get updated for sure, but is it full scale production or more along the lines of refits?  Or, as it has seemed to me in the past, new designs pass through first to showcase the new hotness, and the older designs are refit and updated to accommodate the new tech?

Now, this is coming from someone who does not know a lot about the Jihad and later eras, so I am a little ignorant of the impact those old designs still have on the battlefield.  I was pretty much out of buying new materials by the time the Jihad reared.  I don't hate the Dark Age and beyond, I don't hate the Jihad story, I just dont know it.

When I looked at production for my often-set-aside Dying Embers AU, I toyed with the idea of tossing the Phoenix designs completely aside by the time the setting went "active" in roughly 3060. What I found, in terms of production (particularly with an earlier tech recovery), was the Phoenix designs lead to the current mess of sameness that plagues many factions. It also leads to the massive variant bloat going on. "Really, we need another faction specific Phoenix Hawk variant?" When you strip out the Phoenix designs, you end up with factions that are more easily recognized by their units, each expressing their own diversity and tactical styles. That's just my opinion, but I'll stick with it. I'd rather the Phoenix designs were gone for good. That was easily the most disappointing section in TRO 3085. "Look at all these cool, interesting new units! Oh yeah, here's another hundred variants of the same things we've had for the last 25 years."

Too many of those Phoenix designs also lead to one of the problems (as an RP affiliated person) I often had with players. "Why would I take a Hammerhands / Bandersnatch / Apollo / etc when I can just take a Warhammer or Archer and do the same thing?" Many of the later Phoenix designs (TRO: PP through '85) also flagged too many "overoptimized" tags for me, which doesn't help with the problem. "Who wants to use a Stealth?! I'll take the PXH-3PL." They're just boring now. What made them interesting and inspired awe just isn't there after 25 years of rehashing the same units over and over and over again.

There are currently 3,164 mech designs, though many of which are variants.

I *highly* doubt any of these old mechs would be in production still.  They commonly replace mech A with mech B for no reason at all, or replace a 10 quality mech with a 9 quality mech.  I'm betting the Jihad pretty much ended the chances of ever seeing but a very rare design like this ever again.

I've set my mind to think all those designs were built by/for the star league, and after hundreds of years of war, they have simply all been lost.

And lets face it, a 300 year old mech has had folks die in it, and lots of accumulated body oder.  I can't imagine very many folks would want to be anywhere near it, nor the duct tape holding half of it together.

Some of that can be attributed to the downscale, but also things like the Tricentennial Attacks.