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Author Topic: TRO 3063 Initial impressions  (Read 5210 times)

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Blacknova

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Re: TRO 3063 Initial impressions
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2012, 10:00:50 PM »

Enjoy it for what it is, as good a fan product as has ever been created without creating an AU (and arguably even then) and don't try to nitpick on why the designers did A or B.

So in other words, "Read it but don't ask questions."

That is a rather narrow view for dealing with questions and reviews that will arise from such a well known public fan project, especially considering TRO 3063 was meant to fit into canon as well as possible.

In order to verify the intent of TRO 3063 and the quality, people are going to ask questions, some of them pointed and likely exposing things that were not, or only partially considered. 

Such questions will assist the authors in improving future versions of the work, creating better works in the future and allowing those of us reading TRO 3063 to better understand the thought processes and methodologies used to create the work.

« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 10:03:47 PM by Blacknova »
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Re: TRO 3063 Initial impressions
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2012, 10:42:44 PM »

Enjoy it for what it is, as good a fan product as has ever been created without creating an AU (and arguably even then) and don't try to nitpick on why the designers did A or B.

So in other words, "Read it but don't ask questions."


I am sorry, and I hate to stick words in the mouths of the two people heading this up, but over in other forums both Cent13 and Bad Syntax accuse CGL for behaving this way and blast em for it.  falling back on a position they hate when other people allegedly pull it out is... interesting.
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Re: TRO 3063 Initial impressions
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2012, 10:51:14 PM »

Hey paid zero dollars and got a descent amount of enjoyment out of it so I am more than happy.  ;)

I'll say it again. Anybody wants to tell me that my fanbooks suck that is fine by me. They have been downloaded thousands of times and can be found all round the internet. I got a lot of enjoyment out of doing them and if one person enjoyed it out there that is more than enough reward for me.

The critiques I've seen of TRO 3063 can be taken as constructive criticism. You've had people give their honest opinion and hopefully it will make the product and the writers even better in the future. Please take it easy with the nitpicking comment nobody is assailing you or your efforts.
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Red Pins

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Re: TRO 3063 Initial impressions
« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2012, 02:28:58 AM »

...I've read TRO: 2800 dozens of times, read TRO: Shadows of War nearly 20 times (as best I can with google translator), and TRO: 3063 more than that after all the revisions and spell-checking.

Doesn't matter.  Here it is - the end product of YEARS of effort, art worth THOUSANDS of dollars from his own pocket (and the donations from other fans) - WORSHIP THE SHEER EFFORT AND BALLS it took to finish it.  And - it - cost - you - NOTHING!

...The man created something that will endure long after he quits.  The number of people who have are vanishingly few.  Someday I hope to be one of them.

There's too much thread drift here.  If you haven't just read it and have already posted, go start a new one.  You have no business here to other than read other people's first opinions and impressions.

Why not use the time to start your *OWN* project?

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Centurion13

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Re: TRO 3063 Initial impressions
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2012, 04:00:54 AM »

hence one of my major complaints about the product being clear meta-gaming in it's designs.  I also note a love of the SRM 4 which statistically is the most efficient of the racks (sort of like how the 5 and 15 duke it out for LRMs)

Um... well, actually, I was too ignorant of game statistics to know that about SRMs.  Honestly.  I prefer the SRM-6, but the ammo is an issue.

The LRM-5?  Yes, you could accuse me of 'gaming' the system.  You'd be partly right!  However, the truth was that I see it as a more flexible way of getting mines out there, and a rather long-range salt shaker.  Spamming?  Absolutely.  It's right up there with the LB-X, the RAC/2 and the Komodo.  Plenty of company.  I'm not necessarily breaking new ground.

What is more, I see no reason it wouldn't work in-universe if what you wanted was a pepper-shot rather than a hammer blow.  I consider multiple LRM-5s to be the equivalent of a much larger launcher with 'dial-a-yield'. 

But of course, your mileage may vary.

Cent13
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 04:12:54 AM by Centurion13 »
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Centurion13

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Re: TRO 3063 Initial impressions
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2012, 04:07:45 AM »

Enjoy it for what it is, as good a fan product as has ever been created without creating an AU (and arguably even then) and don't try to nitpick on why the designers did A or B.

So in other words, "Read it but don't ask questions."

Not at all!  Shoot away!  I love real questions.  Sometimes we goofed, sometimes we didn't properly explain the design in the writeup, and sometime we inadvertently copied something already out there.  It's a big universe, and as far as I am concerned, once the TRO is published, it is fair game for anyone who wants to poke holes in it. 

But do give it a fair shake and please, try not to be too hard on me for things like 'metagaming' and publishing machines the company doesn't publish.  I did the best I knew how, and honestly did not mean to offend with my choices.  I am not the company, never pretended to be, and after five years of work on this, I am in awe that they get anything out the door at all.  It is *hard* to do this.  Harder still to make everyone happy. 

At least put a few of the offending machines on the table and play with them.  Please?  Then come back and whang away at me for messing up a design.  That I can deal with.

Cent13
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 04:13:46 AM by Centurion13 »
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Centurion13

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Re: TRO 3063 Initial impressions
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2012, 04:11:00 AM »

Enjoy it for what it is, as good a fan product as has ever been created without creating an AU (and arguably even then) and don't try to nitpick on why the designers did A or B.

So in other words, "Read it but don't ask questions."


I am sorry, and I hate to stick words in the mouths of the two people heading this up, but over in other forums both Cent13 and Bad Syntax accuse CGL for behaving this way and blast em for it.  falling back on a position they hate when other people allegedly pull it out is... interesting.

Peace, brothers!  Please, if you hate to do it, just don't.  I never said that here about you and I won't.  Once I put the thing out for folks to read, it's out there for everything else.  Including, and especially, critiques, gripes, moans, complaints and everything else.  Let the games begin!

As far as wounded pride, forget it.  I left my pride in the checkroom as soon as I realized I could not write.  That was about four years ago.  I still cannot write, but I know folks who can, and folks who can edit.

Yeah, I've poked a stick at CGL a time or two.  Don't recall it being about this sort of thing, but I have slept since that post, so hey.

Cent13
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 04:20:59 AM by Centurion13 »
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Blacknova

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Re: TRO 3063 Initial impressions
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2012, 05:43:18 AM »


...I've read TRO: 2800 dozens of times, read TRO: Shadows of War nearly 20 times (as best I can with google translator), and TRO: 3063 more than that after all the revisions and spell-checking.

Doesn't matter.  Here it is - the end product of YEARS of effort, art worth THOUSANDS of dollars from his own pocket (and the donations from other fans) - WORSHIP THE SHEER EFFORT AND BALLS it took to finish it.  And - it - cost - you - NOTHING!

...The man created something that will endure long after he quits.  The number of people who have are vanishingly few.  Someday I hope to be one of them.

There's too much thread drift here.  If you haven't just read it and have already posted, go start a new one.  You have no business here to other than read other people's first opinions and impressions.

Why not use the time to start your *OWN* project?

Let me be quite clear here, I have not and will not criticise the effort, as it is apparent from both the blog posts and end result that the effort was exceptional.  I will respect the effort, not worship it, as blind faith is something I don't do.

As to actually working on my *OWN* project, at last count it had crossed half a million words, with 2GB of data backing up, mainly documents and spreadsheets, so I understand better than most what it takes to build such a work.  I also expect feedback and nit picking, hell I hope I always get it, as it helps me to constantly improve what I am doing.

However, my issue was and remains the other poster’s comment:

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"Enjoy it for what it is, as good a fan product as has ever been created without creating an AU (and arguably even then) and don't try to nitpick on why the designers did A or B."

My point was that if something with this much fan hype around it is published, then expect, accept and respond to the critique it will receive.  For example, the follow quotes from Cent13's blog in May of 2009 clearly highlight what was intended:

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“It is a standard BattleTech Technical Readout, produced by fans to resemble very closely the kind that…Catalyst Games produces.”

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“It must be carefully researched so as not to conflict with canon; that is, material already accepted in the Battletech 'universe' as accepted fact, history or whatever you want to call it”

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“What our team has tried to do is insert war machines wherever and whenever we can in the established framework without contradicting the canon.”

Therefore, the team set the bar high from the early phases, and when making such public comments regarding such a long running and well publicised project, people are going to look for that detail and accuracy in the finished product.  However, it was good to see such goals set early, other Fan Projects suffer for lack of such long term vision.

Quote
“It may be that we will still make errors; the Battletech universe is a very, very big and complicated place. Lots of stuff happens and if you don't read every single word of every single page of every single publication, online and in hard copy, you will miss it. And someone out there will catch you.”

And here is the crux of it, Cent13 understood that the fan community would go over things with a fine tooth comb, something that the other poster has seemed to miss.  Cent13 has been good enough to respond to all of the comments, both here and on OBT, and I am sure elsewhere.  However, the other poster’s comment was both narrow minded and short sighted, as it would deprive both the current and future works by the same group of constructive criticism, which could be used to improve both current and future endeavours.

So, like I have said, well done to the team that pulled this off, but as pointed out already, there are errors and they are being fixed, but no TRO has ever made everyone 100% happy or mad, so both positive and negative comments should be both expected, accepted and used to their fullest to improve things.

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Re: TRO 3063 Initial impressions
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2012, 09:55:03 AM »


So in other words, "Read it but don't ask questions."
[/quote]


Nooooo, as has been said, questions are fine, but there are an awful lot of people trying to *redesign* units or saying "Faction X doesn't use item Y" and stuff. 

Nobody has a problem with questions, but redesigning units?  I never did that with any TRO.  I picked on CGL because they didn't support their products, hated their fans, and was hypocritical in the way they deal with a detailed universe.  FYI, I got banned for silly stuff like comparing war in the 31st century to war int he 20th century, or posting to a gaming group that I was bringing in my mini's over the weekend to sell, not for contradicting CGL.

Anyway....

My big question in all this is how many people are going to be fielding these units on their local tabletops? 

Part two is just how acceptable is this TRO compared to your canon products?

And my selfish question. How do people like my Record Sheets compared to canon, as that was 99.9% of my input on the project.  I know the circle distribution could be better, but my code isn't hard-coded to a maximum number of armor points, so I can put a superheavy mech with 600 armor on one of those, while MML/SSW/etc can't touch that.

Personally, I hate the dragonfly/oculus (the art), and have brought it up more than once :).  However, nearly all of the mechs and quite a few vehicles look *really* good compared to comparison products CGL puts out.  I mean, they use the same artists so it isn't a big surprise, but Cent13 did a good job in directing them just *what* to draw so most of the units looked, on average, a bit better than say TRO3085.
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Centurion13

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Re: TRO 3063 Initial impressions
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2012, 11:02:01 AM »


My big question in all this is how many people are going to be fielding these units on their local tabletops? 

Part two is just how acceptable is this TRO compared to your canon products?

And my selfish question. How do people like my Record Sheets compared to canon, as that was 99.9% of my input on the project.  I know the circle distribution could be better, but my code isn't hard-coded to a maximum number of armor points, so I can put a superheavy mech with 600 armor on one of those, while MML/SSW/etc can't touch that.

Personally, I hate the dragonfly/oculus (the art), and have brought it up more than once :).  However, nearly all of the mechs and quite a few vehicles look *really* good compared to comparison products CGL puts out.  I mean, they use the same artists so it isn't a big surprise, but Cent13 did a good job in directing them just *what* to draw so most of the units looked, on average, a bit better than say TRO3085.

As for the first one, that all depends on what the game master decides.  As of now, he is busy converting everything over to HMP or somesuch, so the odds are good!

As for the second?  Well, speaking strictly as a gamer, the sheets are portable, filled with information and legible, easy to access and enough like the canon product to be immediately familiar in actual play.  I gotta say I like them.

Especially since, if you had not dedicated about a month of your life to this, they would not exist except as a very error-filled 550 megabyte file.  If folks thought their download speed was slow... coulda been LOTS worse!

Aaaannd... I want to thank all of you folks who are happy, unhappy, meh about the product but have made an effort to look it over.  Are there issues?  YOU BET!  Did we spend about six months just proofing these things and STILL finding bugs?  Oh mais oui, yes.  It's as good as I can make it, and I have devoted as much of my life to it as I am gonna.  I suspect the same is true for Bad Syntax.

And it's all good, as ICP says, as long as we don't get too upset with each other about this.  Red Pins, I love you like a brother, but those caps made my eyes hurt.  And remember, brother... it's a game.  A good one, but not worth getting riled over.  In a month or two something else will come along - let's not let hard feeling generated by loyalty one way or the other put folks off from doing what we came here to do - waste time play the game we like.

I always thought the game was an excuse to hang out with my buddies.  And I don't want the tail wagging the dog.

Cent13

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Re: TRO 3063 Initial impressions
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2012, 11:46:25 AM »

My concern with many of the vehicles is all of the fusion powerplants that are wasted because not one single energy was put on that particular design. This is a complete waste of the ten free heat sinks that the vehicle gets with the SFE.
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Re: TRO 3063 Initial impressions
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2012, 01:49:21 PM »

Nooooo, as has been said, questions are fine, but there are an awful lot of people trying to *redesign* units or saying "Faction X doesn't use item Y" and stuff. 

Nobody has a problem with questions, but redesigning units?  I never did that with any TRO.

Unrelated question: You never redesigned a unit from a TRO? That might put you in a minority status among the fan base right there. Tinkering with TRO units, even just as a thought exercise to never see time on a table top, is pretty standard fare across the community for a very long time.
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Centurion13

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Re: TRO 3063 Initial impressions
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2012, 02:32:28 PM »

My concern with many of the vehicles is all of the fusion powerplants that are wasted because not one single energy was put on that particular design. This is a complete waste of the ten free heat sinks that the vehicle gets with the SFE.

Well...

The designs that use ICE have a good bit less payload, are prone to exploding due to fuel tanks`and are tied closely to supply lines. Furthermore, you have to carry spares for them and unless most of your machines use ICE, that's just more space taken up for a different category of parts.

It depends.  Is fusion really that high-tech?  We assume so because we live in the 21st century and it doesn't even exist here.  But in the 31st century, maybe as common in military machines as the ICE is for us.

Are you writing and designing exclusively in-universe?  That poses a LOT of restrictions on a design that don't make much sense on the tabletop.  Are you writing from a 'meta' point exclusively?  That produces a lot of machines that work well on the table top, but look kinda odd in-universe. 

I see unused heat sink potential as a benefit that might or might not prove needful.  If we don't need it, that doesn't mean we don't use a fusion engine.  We might, after all, need the extra tonnage to make a design work. 

Doesn't make sense to me, in -universe or out, to lose a lance of tanks because they were under-armored for their job - and have someone console my by pointing out that at least they did not waste precious heat sinks!

Cent13
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Bad_Syntax

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Re: TRO 3063 Initial impressions
« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2012, 02:37:35 PM »

Unrelated question: You never redesigned a unit from a TRO? That might put you in a minority status among the fan base right there. Tinkering with TRO units, even just as a thought exercise to never see time on a table top, is pretty standard fare across the community for a very long time.

There are currently 5,222 canon units, 2,790 of which are mechs.  Any "tinkering" I may have wanted to do makes more sense to me to just pick a unit that is more in line with whatever it is I wanted.

I've DESIGNED my own units lots of times, sure, but as soon as you "tinker" with a canon unit it is no longer canon, and thus a custom unit, and since every single component can be easily swapped out anyway, well, if I want a warhammer with 2xRAC5s, I just design a mech of whatever tonnage I want, with 2xRAC5s, and use my warhammer mini and call it whatever I want.  I *try* to stick with 100% canon, because if I start tinkering, I quickly end up with munchy designs :)

Perhaps I'm in the minority, but there are just sooooo many designs to choose from IMO.

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Re: TRO 3063 Initial impressions
« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2012, 03:21:57 PM »

I tinker sometimes normally minor things like move ammo bombs from CT or replace LRM and SRMs with MMLs

The rest of the time I create other units

This TRO I'm going to use some in my AU others I might mod slightly
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