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Author Topic: WarShips in 3025: Can it be Plausible?  (Read 5937 times)

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Blacknova

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WarShips in 3025: Can it be Plausible?
« on: January 30, 2012, 07:38:03 PM »

With all the recent discussion, both here and on the BT boards, about the production and use of WarShips in 3025, I decided to try and make a historically plausible crack at it.  Here is what I cam up with.

Firstly, I looked over Historical: Reunification War.  This gives the strength of the major militaries going into the Star League era.  We also know that the edict of 2650, which limited the size of House militaries, was amended in 2752, doubling member state forces.  So, as a rough rule of thumb, I doubled the totals, for both regiments and ships.

I then counted the number of HOUSE regiments each state had in 3025, per the 3025 House Books, and compared this to the number of regiments at the end of the Star League era.  The 3025 number was then expressed as a percentage of the Star League number.  E.g., for the LCAF, the SL number was 170 and the 3025 number was 53, giving a percentage of 31.18%.

I then multiplied the number of WarShips available at the end of Star League era by the percentage, but this gave fleet numbers of up to 50 for some states, so I halved the results.  For the number of shipbuilding slips, the number of WarShips was divided by 10 and assigned to canon 3025 shipyards.

The strengths of each navy were as follows, using ships from canon that were part of that nation’s fleets either pre or post-Succession Wars for flavour (only the LC could not be filled out this way):

State   WS   Slips   Ships
FS   25   Kathil (3), New Syrtis (2)   3 New Syrtis, 5 Avalon, 11 Davion II, 5 Fox, 1 Robinson
CC   15   Capella (3)   3 Du Shi Wang, 3 Feng Huang, 10 Impavido
DC   18   Chatham (2)   3 Samarkand, 4 Kirashima, 7 Kyushu, 5 Inazuma
FW   16   Tamarind (1), Atreus (1), Lopez (1), Marik (1)   1 Atreus, 2 Thera, 3 Agamemnon, 6 Eagle, 4 Zechetineau
LC   19   Alarion (4), Gibbs (1)   1 Tharkad, 2 Molijnir, 4 Congress, 11 Mako, 1 Sylvester
MC   1       1 Concordat
OA   0       
RW   0       
TC   3   Taurus (1)   3 Concordat

Of course this ship list is open to debate, as SL era vessels, or completely new designs, could well be part of any or all of the fleets and the post-3050 designs may never have arisen.  They are merely for show.

I then had to come up with a back story, which in short is this:

Over the Succession Wars, the various state militaries desperately tried to keep their fleets and WarShip building infrastructure operating, sinking vast sums of money and masses of men and material into keeping the shipyards operational.

Over time, what came to be known as Anchorage systems evolved, where military and commercial shipbuilding became largely, but not totally concentrated.  These few systems, ever decreasing in number, siphoned off so much of the material of the rebuilding efforts, that most other systems suffered, greatly accelerating the technological and industrial declines on those worlds and across each realm.

By 3025, only eleven Anchorage Worlds remained, each a bastion of interstellar commerce, shipbuilding and slowly recovering technology.  Each of these Anchorage Worlds was seen as almost as important as a State’s Capital world, as each represented over 250 years of dedicated effort and expenditure.

Be interesting what others think regarding this.
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Re: WarShips in 3025: Can it be Plausible?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2012, 09:54:39 PM »

This hits upon (apon?  Stupid English language) one of the problems I've always had with the canon BT universe.  How could ALL of the SL warships and shipyards be destroyed even over several hundred years?  You mean to tell me no one saw their fleets withering away and didn't 1) do everything they could to protect and squirral away maybe just a couple of warships and 2) at least try to build new warships and shipyards even if they were only scaled down versions of the old ones?  Any way, I do see the SS having warships but using them very rarely because they're considered too precious (think Wilhelm II and the High Seas Fleet during WWI).
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SSJGohan3972

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Re: WarShips in 3025: Can it be Plausible?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2012, 10:55:05 PM »

This hits upon (apon?  Stupid English language) one of the problems I've always had with the canon BT universe.  How could ALL of the SL warships and shipyards be destroyed even over several hundred years?  You mean to tell me no one saw their fleets withering away and didn't 1) do everything they could to protect and squirral away maybe just a couple of warships and 2) at least try to build new warships and shipyards even if they were only scaled down versions of the old ones?  Any way, I do see the SS having warships but using them very rarely because they're considered too precious (think Wilhelm II and the High Seas Fleet during WWI).

I would agree here, considering the Fiction regularly talks about Jumpships that are several centuries old the total lack of Warships in the House navies by the end of the succession wars is fairly far-fetched. Now I know the canon argument about the ferocity of the Succession Wars and ComStar's Holy Shroud taking out the few straglers but its mind boggling that absolutely no House warships survived and quite plausible for them to have survived in your scenario, especially on a proportional scale like you have here.
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Blacknova

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Re: WarShips in 3025: Can it be Plausible?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2012, 10:56:17 PM »

I do like it when people agree with me, my ego knows no bounds when it comes to such pleasures.
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Re: WarShips in 3025: Can it be Plausible?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2012, 11:00:37 PM »

On second thought I think your numbers might be a little high for my tastes, I do like the idea of a few 3025 warships but I'd be more comfortable with slightly higher than canon 3085 levels (5-7 for the houses, the TC maybe has 2 if they're lucky). That still allows for a few warships but takes into account their great proportional expense and difficulty to manufacture and the fact that ComStar has been trying to get rid of them for a few centuries.
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Re: WarShips in 3025: Can it be Plausible?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2012, 11:03:42 PM »

Now you're off my Christmas list.

Each to thier own with regards to numbers, the main aim was to present a more plausible scenario then the comon "I hate canon an I wants me warships."
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Re: WarShips in 3025: Can it be Plausible?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2012, 11:06:03 PM »

Now you're off my Christmas list.

Each to thier own with regards to numbers, the main aim was to present a more plausible scenario then the comon "I hate canon an I wants me warships."

Haha, I knew I should have kept my mouth shut  :D
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Re: WarShips in 3025: Can it be Plausible?
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2012, 06:26:11 AM »

Like the Anchorages and your numbers seem to fit. Instead of some customs remember there are ships like the Aegis, Baron, and others that were sold to all the Houses. They might be good fits in general rather than customs you got.
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Re: WarShips in 3025: Can it be Plausible?
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2012, 01:42:55 PM »

By 3025, only eleven Anchorage Worlds remained, each a bastion of interstellar commerce, shipbuilding and slowly recovering technology.  Each of these Anchorage Worlds was seen as almost as important as a State’s Capital world, as each represented over 250 years of dedicated effort and expenditure.

Would these investments mean less BattleMech units?
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Re: WarShips in 3025: Can it be Plausible?
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2012, 04:11:28 PM »

Quote
Like the Anchorages and your numbers seem to fit. Instead of some customs remember there are ships like the Aegis, Baron, and others that were sold to all the Houses. They might be good fits in general rather than customs you got.

They are just place holders. Who knows what the fleets would look like and with two end of the League Historicals and maybe a SL era TRO, there could be all sorts of new WarShips to play with.

Quote
Would these investments mean less BattleMech units?

No, all other 3025 would be canon.  The expenditure and Anchorage Worlds are meerly an additional explanation for the canon decline on other worlds.
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Re: WarShips in 3025: Can it be Plausible?
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2012, 04:24:06 PM »

As to the numbers of ships, that some may see as high, I looked at this last night from a deployment perspective.  Once you break down defensive deployments and 20% of the fleet being in overhaul or repairs at any one time, there are not many vessels left for offensive deployment.

Federated Suns - 25 WarShips

In reserve/refit/repairs - 5 Ships

New Avalon - 3 Ships
Robinson - 1 Ship
New Syrtis - 3 Ships
Kathil - 3 Ships
Galax - 1 Ship
Panpour - 1 Ship
Delevan - 1 Ship
Talon - 1 Ship

Available for non-defensive action - 6 Ships

Capellan Confederation - 15 WarShips

In reserve/refit/repairs - 3 Ships

Sian - 3 Ships
Capella- 4 Ships
Tikonov - 1 Ship
Sarna- 1 Ship
St. Ives- 1 Ship

Available for non-defensive action - 2 Ships

Draconis Combine - 18 WarShips

In reserve/refit/repairs - 4 Ships

Luthien - 3 Ships
Chatham- 3 Ships
Schuyler - 1 Ship
Galedon- 1 Ship
Dieron- 1 Ship
Benjamin- 1 Ship
Rasalhague - 1 Ship
Pesht- 1 Ship

Available for non-defensive action - 2 Ships

Free Worlds League - 16 WarShips

In reserve/refit/repairs - 3 Ships

Atreus - 4 Ships
Tamarind - 1 Ship
Lopez - 1 Ship
Marik - 1 Ship
Andurien - 1 Ship
Oriente - 1 Ship
Regulus - 1 Ship

Available for non-defensive action - 3 Ships

Lyran Commonwealth - 19 WarShips

In reserve/refit/repairs - 4 Ships

Tharkad - 3 Ships
Alarion - 5 Ships
Gibbs - 1 Ship
Dobegal - 1 Ship
Tamar - 1 Ship
Skye - 1 Ship

Available for non-defensive action - 3 Ships

The Taurians would likely have all ships based out of the Haydes Cluster with one undertaking border patrols every now and then.  The Magistracy of Canopus's one ship would likely be over either Canopus or Dunianshire.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 10:29:20 PM by Blacknova »
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Re: WarShips in 3025: Can it be Plausible?
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2012, 02:28:30 PM »

No, all other 3025 would be canon.  The expenditure and Anchorage Worlds are meerly an additional explanation for the canon decline on other worlds.

Your explanations would make us think that it was quite costly to create these Anchorage Worlds and we all know that the economy of the Inner Sphere is not really good (just look at the Federated Suns Sourcebook and the problems of their Periphery worlds), so I do think that it would be either the Navy or the Army.
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Re: WarShips in 3025: Can it be Plausible?
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2012, 03:41:18 PM »

Well it wasn't only war that eliminated the WS, the main killer was the destruction of the yards and the sheer length of the conflict. During SWIII the annual attrition ratio was about 10-15% - now without production that will kill any non-replaceable resource. So the main issue isn't the fleet sizes at the start of the war because even given a low 10% attrition ratio for the entire SW era all those ships would have been destroyed long ago by 3025.

Now intrestingly enough the technology to build compact KF cores were never entirely lost, IIRC canon fluff comments that some of the yards retained that capacity throughout the SW era. So if you have a KF core design and don't mind not having some of the WS systems, like cap weapons, and find some source for the fusion-drive you could build simple WS throughout the SW era.

There is a source like that, the drives used on the Behemoth (& perhaps the mammoth) could be used to build light WS. A 200kt 1/2 carrier or assault ship design and perhaps a 100kt 2/3 escort. Not much perhaps but in the realm of the blind the one eyed man is king.
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Re: WarShips in 3025: Can it be Plausible?
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2012, 04:44:36 PM »

That's a good point, it's the Interplanetary Drives that's a big problem, and some of the other core systems. I always liked the idea of a hodgepodge WarShip. A Monolith frame with Compact Core and Behemoth Drive. Then have the whole thing studded with whatever Capital Weapons are available. Armor would likely be light, just like SL-era ships, but we'd certainly see a lot of standard weapons.

It'd be a worthwhile investment even if it could only scrounge up a few Capital Weapons. If only cap missiles the little garage ship would be a heck of a system defense vessel (Hesperus II wants two asap.) While a ship that could sport a Naval Laser, or PPC would be a lovely support vessel for planetary assaults. 

Given how long it takes to build a single Monolith during the era, you could almost double or triple the time for one of these, thereby keeping the number of available vessels built pretty low.

Just a thought.
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A previous suggestion of mine...
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2012, 05:57:44 PM »

Since the technology to build the compact KF cores never became entirely lostech you could start building ships much sooner. Bad armor and lack of cap weapons would reduce them to carrier barges but they might still be useful to have around for major operations.

Something like this:


Mass: 200,000 tons
Length: 350 meters
Sail Diameter: 600 meters
Fuel: 4,000 tons (20,000)
Tons/Burn Day: 39.52
Safe Thrust: 1
Maximum Thrust: 2
Sail Integrity: 3
KF Drive Integrity: 4
Heat Sinks: 840
Structural Integrity: 60

Armor: (200 tons standard)
   Fore: 28
   Fore-Sides: 25
   Aft-Sides: 25
   Aft: 28

Cargo:
        Bay 1: Fighter  (60)      6 doors
        Bay 2: Fighter  (60)      6 doors
        Bay 3: Small Craft (16) - 4 doors
        Bay 4: Cargo 46259 tons - 4 doors ( 5% spares, 20000 ton ASF support )

Dropship Capacity: 4
Grav Decks: 2 (95-meter diameter)
Escape Pods: 200
Crew: 750 incl 120 passengers
Weapons:
        40 x LRM20 w 48 rnds each
        20 LL
        40 mL
        40 AC10 w 50 rnds each
        20 PPC
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 05:58:41 PM by CJvR »
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