OBT Forum

Really it the same thing I have been complaining about with the TC- the writers are suddenly changing a faction's behavior to make the setting fit the story, rather then say this is the setting we have and what stories can we tell with it.  I know to a certain extent they were hamstrung by Whiz Kids (Wasn't most of the Whiz Kids material developed by the current writers?) but that is a bit of cop out in my book. 

I thought FM: 3085 and JHS: FR did a decent job of giving some support to the lackluster implementation of the Republic. There's a few issues to separate here though, and adding them all into one does some injustice.

1. The Republic's grabbing of a number of those worlds (not all, but a fair amount) is weak.

This is true. As MadCap has discussed elsewhere, Wizkids implementation of the Republic was terrible in the early stages. That's an out-of-universe impact on an in-universe faction. Let's not confuse the two. The two books I mentioned above help to add some support to why particular factions (the former FedCom nations in particular) gave up those worlds. But most importantly, CGL added in things to make it fit more in tone with the individual factions. The Combine played politics and still pulled a fast one on the Republic. "Sure you can have some of our factory worlds. Oh yeah, we moved all the factories and left you the charred rubble. Enjoy." That fits in the tone of the Combine. The Lyrans? "You want to get rid of Skye for us, but we still keep most of the decent factory worlds that haven't been completely reduced to rubble like New Earth? Uhh...where do we sign?" Again, it's a merchants dream. They reduce reconstruction costs, all with what they believe is the very strong possibility that they can come back in the near future to get those worlds back. And really, the Republic gets a bunch of junk worlds with mostly destroyed (or totally destroyed) factories.

So, those things (and more) help to bring the initial poor implementation into line with existing BT material. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Is it the best of a bad idea that CGL has to live with? Yup.

2. Number 1 doesn't have any impact on the Republic as a faction and whether it fits the aesthetic. The Republic fits the BT aesthetic pretty well in fact, when examined a bit more closely.

The Republic fits in perfectly with the rest of the Successor States, particularly the former FedCom states and the Clans. They claim a great many things about building up their people, strong opportunities for all, etc. Just like every other House...they're as two-faced and full of shit as the rest of them. Every single faction in BT is this way at one point or another. Every last one. It's one of the things that makes it fantastic. They have great thoughts on how to move forward with the Republic and then make the same mistakes that every other faction has made. They left the nobility empowered and entrenched. They want to have things appear to be more above board and public, but continue building up some exceptionally nasty black ops and off the books operators (the Fidelis, using old Blakist wargame scenarios, the Ghost Knights, etc). They talk about equal representation, then give the Exarch the ability to unilaterally disband the only group that is publicly nominated (the Senate). They're just as grimy and grey (with certain specific streaks of pure lily whiteness and evil black-hat in the same kind of proportions) as the rest of the factions.

3. The Republic was never going to be a reborn Hegemony. A reborn Hegemony was never going to be anything resembling the Terran Hegemony, no matter who did it at this stage of the game.

The Hegemony is too long relegated to myth and history to be relevant. No matter what formed on Terra (Blakist, Republic, or otherwise), in the canon material...it wasn't going to look anything like the Terran Hegemony. Not even a little bit. They kept portions of its mystique are still around (the overarching plans and social engineering, ala the moving the various nationalities around in resettlement programs, the technology focus on staying on top, the Cameron-esque cult of personality regarding Stone, and the really scary black bag operators). You just need to look close.

4. The Jihad really was so scarring. Just not quite in the way you're thinking.

One of the things that ER: 2750 has really driven home for me is the massive differences between post-Hegemony Inner Sphere and pre-Fall Inner Sphere. It's not just a matter of the Hegemony that changed. EVERYBODY changed. From the House Lords down to the littlest peon. The entire population of the IS (and Periphery) had a monumentally different sense of scale in the Star League era. The existence of the DoME is proof of that. Not a single faction has since come close to what DoME accomplished, in all the intervening years. Not only have they not come close...they haven't even tried. The further out you get from the League and the Hegemony, the more the people simply look at it as some sort of creation myth or legendary part of mythology. They don't even perceive the worlds around them and the possibilities of what you can do with the same sense of scale that the Camerons and their people did.

The same is true for the Succession Wars. The people living through the Jihad (even the older characters who die off) by and large have not seen the Succession Wars. Not the destructive ones that we're really talking about here (the 1st and 2nd). Those things are ancient history, taking on the mythological sense much like the Hegemony mentioned above. Everybody can read about it, and grasp the impact of what happened...but they cannot personalize it. They cannot conceptualize it with emotional impact at a personal level. It didn't happen to them. We see the same thing in the real world today. We don't doubt the damage or horror of either of the World Wars, but most of us look at more modern events for a sense of emotional horror and loss. It's human nature. The Jihad was that modern event that left personal emotional scarring for a lot of people. Those worlds that remind them of that emotional scarring, those worlds that are going to require massive amounts of funds and reconstruction, the ones that sided with those bastard Blakists (even if they didn't)...somebody wants to take them off our hands so that we can rebuild the "important" worlds in our interior? Fine. Fuck 'em.

It's not about trying to show the Jihad as anywhere near as destructive as the 1st or 2nd SW. I mean, c'mon, the 1st and 2nd manage to kill off at least 750 worlds permanently. The Jihad managed maybe a dozen, two, at best? But what the Jihad did offer is what the 4th Succession War offered to the Capellans. Were the Capellans actually destroyed? Nope. Did the people believe in emotional loss far beyond the actual loss of systems? Did they despair? For a time, yes. And that's the key thing. The Successor States in the early 3080's, when the Republic idea begins to take hold...they're stuck in despair. They haven't processed and dealt with the emotional blow yet, when Stone and Lear come calling with their plans. They're not thinking clearly (and the few that do like the Capellans and the Combine, clearly make out better) and they react emotionally. Again, is it a perfect storyline? Nope. Has CGL done a good job at turning really poorly planned implementation into something that has some legs? Yup.

Just as the Successor States are not the Successor States of the Star League era during the 3025 era (they don't think on the same scale, as discussed above), the Successor States of the Jihad are not the Successor States of the 1st and 2nd Succession War. The 3025 states had no emotional connection to the Star League's ambition and drastic overreach. The Jihad states have no emotional connection to the horrors and destruction of the 1st and 2nd SW. Both of them (the 3025 states and the Jihad states) haven't lived through their respective prior eras to have that emotional connection. They can intellectualize it, they can debate it, they can comprehend it. But they cannot feel it.

Side note: That emotional impact the Jihad brings to the table? Something that has been sadly lacking in BT material to date. I'm not saying material didn't have an emotional impact previous to this. But the idea of showing the citizenry shell-shocked (outside of the SWs) and the very factions themselves having emotional exhaustion...that's one of its strengths. It's something that they missed opportunities on with the Clan Invasion and the FedCom Civil War in particular. They tried to personalize it to specific characters, rather than giving the broader view of humanity.

5. Oh, the Republic pain. I'm a Republic fan, no denying that. (Strangely, I'm also a Capellan fan.) I for one cannot wait for the pain. It's going to be glorious.

I think this is the last I have to say on this for a while, as I've been harping on this elsewhere. Reading the DA PDFs (and there is a wealth of material there, several hundred pages worth) available on the BT site were a bit eye-opening for me. When you start to look between the lines, the Republic offers up the same opportunities that the other factions have. It fits well in the mold of the Hegemony without trying to copy the Hegemony. The core concept holds up strong, while they have worked hard to de-emphasize the really poor introduction of the faction. But I found myself really disliking things about that introduction and the faction that came from me not having information on the Republic. Take a read through those Dark Age PDFs, while reading FM: 3085 and Jihad: FR. Look close. You might be surprised by what you think after that. You may not as well. This is just one fan offering up some food for thought.

+1 Dread!

Well written, well said my friend. That was spot on!

I mean Theodore Kurita is on record (quoted in HKSB) as saying a reborn Hegemony is the greatest threat to the Draconis Combine. So on their behalf I'm throwing the penalty flag.

You should start using pertinent sources. Like accepting the fact that Theodore's dead by Jihad's end. What he'd accept after its conclusion is a moot point. The man was barely present for the Black Dragon uprising, let alone the later half of the Jihad. His son was a Blakist captive for months on end and a better candidate for discussion.

Hohiro II lives through the entire Jihad, is personally at its mercy and leads through its worst years. He's well aware of new realities and has plenty of domestic problems to deal with; the Azami and Nova Cats being but a few. 

Dumping some of the worst worlds while removing the remaining manufacturing infrastructure to better protected planets is incredibly shrewd. The fact that they earn a safe border in the process is an added bonus.

Bonus awards to Hohiro II for being a smart guy when it counts.   

The Lyran Commonwealth loses Skye and after the Clan Invasion took Tamar really IMO ceases to exist. It should be called the Protectorate of Donegal as it is the only state that remains with any territorial integrity. So yeah the Steiners got rid of a problem but no one noticed the lose of two founding worlds? If they were going to swallow this they should have founded a new state (which I did in an alternate timeline) and admit that the Commonwealth is finished because in truth it is.

Skye has been a thorn in Tharkad's side for generations. The only reason why any Archon cares half a Kroner about them was their manufacturing capabilities (reduced since the start of the SWs), using the March as part of the Terran Corridor's connection to the second half of the FedCom, and its relationship to Terra when Archons still dreamed of becoming First Lord.

The FedCom Civil War dumps one of those reasons, the Second Star League another and the Jihad finishes off all three. The fact that Tharkad gets to offload the most troublesome and damaged of the Skye worlds, while retaining control of the best is a huge coup for Steiner.

As for Tamar...Tamar ceased to be important with the creation of the Free Rasalhague Republic. The Clan invasion only finished what politics and four Succession Wars started. 

 

Thanks for the thoughts guys, I must admit that I have not read into the DA material past FM:3085.

Additionally, that post was probably not my best, as it came at the end of a 12 hour, flu wracked day after 3 hours sleep.  Probably not the best time to rant, despite the theraputic advantages.

Another great source is the various sidebars and planet descriptions in the Objectives series. It's rather interesting to see Stone/Lear dialogue about their plans, as it gives some rather interesting insight into the problems they face (particularly the Capellan and Combine Objectives books).

+1

Most of the book introductions are great for in-universe insight and shouldn't be skipped. 

Okay, where do I start.  First let me state that this is only my opinion and you can take that for what its worth (which usually isn't much).  Now I think where Blacknova (through his flu induced crankyness) and others were going with this was not just the weakness of the DA storyline when it was launched but how it was launched.  It seemed that WizKid took over BT, looked at it, decided to chuck what most players liked about it (the table top game, stomping around in big, armor covered, gun covered robots, BTs entire historical feel and content, etc.), shoved clickytech down those same fans throats, and then said love it or go play Heavy Gear.  Oh, and we're doing this Jihad thing which ends with a Dark Age.  Now how was this new storyline developed?  I think it went something like this.

WizKid Writer's Room
Somewhere on Terra
Sometime in the late 1990s, on a Monday

"Dude, why did I drink that much Jagermeister this weekend?" moaned Writer 1.
"Shut up.  I threw up something this morning I think was still alive." groaned Writer 2.
"Uuunnnnnmmmm.  Turn off the lights!  AHH!  My head!  Who's yelling?" bellowed Writer 3 from the old couch in the corner before he vomited on the floor.
"Ugh!  That's disgusting!  What is that?  Chicken noodle soup and vodka?" questioned Writer 1.
"Gin, I think." responded Writer 3.
"Whatever.  We need to get to work.  Hey, where's all the files?" asked Writer 2.
"I don't know.  They were here Friday." said Writer 1 as he looked around the room.  "I don't even see that joke story line you came up with that had Comstar popping nukes all over the place and then all the Succession Lords turning over half their realms to a guy they found on the street who you named after our intern."
"You called, boss?" asked Devlin Stone as he stuck his pimply face through the door.
"No, Devlin!  Now get us some coffee!" barked Writer 1 as the intern's head quickly disappeared.  "Really, what kind of name is Devlin Stone?  Sounds like a porn star."
"Here you go, boss." chirped Stone as he reappeared with three cups of coffee.  "You want me to clean that puke up?"
"Yes, before someone slips in it." ordered Writer 2.
"You got it, boss.  Oh, and the printers called.  They said they'd get the first runs to you this afternoon." chimed Devlin.
"First runs of what?" asked Writer 3.
"I don't know.  They said something about a jihad and a dark page?" answered Devlin as he left to fetch a mop and bucket.
"Oh no." said the three writers in unison.

Later that afternoon

"Package for you, sir." said the FedEx man.
"Thank you, I think." said Writer 1 as he took the page with quivering hands.  He openned the box, pulled out the stack of books inside, and gasped.  "May God forgive us."

A little later that afternoon

"Okay, guys.  Its full COA time." growled Writer 1.  "We've produced the turd, now we've got to polish it.  (Which MythBusters proved you can do by using the Japanese art of hikaru dorodango)  The first novels are garbage.  We've got to do some major character building and plot development or this franchise is toast."
"I'm on it!" cried Writer 2 and he dashed off to brainstorm.
"Next, we've got to get those, what do they call them...." trailed off Writer 1.
"Unicorns?" asked Writer 3.
"No.  The big, armored things that walk around." said Writer 1 as he scratched his head.
"You mean Mechs." said Writer 3.
"Yeah, those things.  I think we need to bring those back." said Writer 1 as he snapped his fingers.
"You can count on me." answered Writer 3 with a salute before he charged out of the room.
"Whew.  I think we dodged a bullet.  It might take a decade, spark a mulitude of AUs, inspire a googleplex of forum rants, and bring this company down, but I think it will all work out for the best."

And they all lived happily ever after.

Cestusrex has it, partially. CGL's definitely working themselves out from under a bad start. There's only a few minor things to note that aren't quite on.

1. The Jihad (not necessarily the version they ended up with, but the concept) dates back well into FASA's days of handling it. That was something that was always going to happen. It may simply been called the Third Transfer (or something else) at that point, but the foreshadowing was all over the FASA books.

2. Wizkids made one crucial mistake early on (and a whole lot of other ones later). They introduced the Republic first. The idea of the Republic works as a stand alone. But there was a massive marketing malf-up right here. To pull on the existing fan base (whether they would have stuck around or not really doesn't matter for this discussion), they needed to show the established factions first, leaving the Republic as the greater mystery. This will tie into number 3.

3. They made the same mistake that early FASA made with the Clan Invasion and the 4th SW (remind me to start a thread on that sometime). FASA jammed those conflicts into the narrow view of a tiny handful of characters, leading to gross oversimplification. Wizkids did the same thing with the microfactions. That term is very, very important to note though. The fan base started reading about these factions, and didn't put quite the same care into reading as they do with other product. Take a look at the DA PDFs some time. It wasn't hidden that these groups running about with a tiny handful of 'Mechs were microfactions. Not representatives of the larger factions. Yes, 'Mechs were rare...in these tiny groups. But there's a wealth of references in the material that was posted on the DA site talking about larger conflicts, as well as very early fiction shifting gears. This is where the marketing mistake comes back to bite them. Existing fans didn't stick around long enough to find this out, after seeing the initial viewpoint focused in all the wrong places.

There's plenty of screw-ups, and Cestusrex hits a few of them on the head. But the screw ups aren't limited to Wizkids. The BT community as a whole made some ugly mistakes as well. They didn't just talk about what they disliked on the new material, they went out of their way to savagely beat it down. The overreactions to this day, years after the death of MWDA, still turn fans away who are looking to make the transition. (Setting aside the flamewars organized to spam the early DA forums and some of the other ugliness of those days). We had a large group who was available for cross-over into the game we've known...and we just shit all over them (myself included, particularly). It's not surprising that the few Demo Agents I've talked to have mentioned that they had a lot of issues getting MWDA fans to transition into BT. I don't know how it was elsewhere, but the local stores that had MWDA games wanted nothing to do with people showing up to play BT. We had an ugly reputation in my neck of the woods. Tone is everything, and knowledge of that material is key. Many of the most common complaints regarding the Jihad or Dark Age really seem to come from lack of familiarity with the subject matter, and then repeating internet rumors. I think that's one of the reasons I'm vocal about this time period in particular. I saw what happened to the local BT community (it's an absolutely dead wasteland, requiring at least an hour drive, much closer to Philadelphia, after years of having generally two tournaments or more a month for the better part of a decade). I don't want to see that in the larger community, and there's a lot of similar statements that remind me of the local blowup.