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Author Topic: What is the fewest number of engines you can build a viable military with?  (Read 1821 times)

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masterarminas

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What is the fewest number of engines you can build a viable military with?
« on: January 16, 2015, 12:11:25 AM »
A while ago, I had started a thread called "OmniMechs of Handbook:  Clan Goliath Scorpion."  One of the points that got discussed was whether or not the Scorpions had the resources to build six newly designed OmniMechs and three newly designed OmniFighters.  Engines in particular was a sticking point.

Now, I am of the opinion that if you get rid of all that standard BattleMech junk (Commando IIC, I'm looking at YOU) that the Scorpions got stuck with, they should have the industrial capacity to do this.  But Takiro's point was valid.  So, going back through my designs, I managed to streamline them down further (and will post them when the fluff gets finished) and wound up with this:

Consolidated 315XL:  Used for two designs.  The 35-ton Hellwasp OmniMech (9/14/x) and the 35-ton Comanche OmniFighter (11/17).

Redline 350XL:  Used for two designs.  The 50-ton Sand Devil (7/11/x) and 70-ton Goliath Scorpion (5/8/x) OmniMechs.

Type II 360XL:  Used for four designs.  The 45-ton Hooded Eagle (8/12/x), the 60-ton Desert Tiger (6/9/x), the 90-ton Dune Stalker (4/6/x) OmniMechs and the 60-ton Zulu OmniFighter (8/12).

Light Force 270XL:  Used only for the 90-ton Hun OmniFighter (5/8).

Now, I could boost the thrust of the Hun to 6/9 and have FIVE of my nine designs using the 360XL . . . at the cost of a LOT of pod-space.  I might end up doing that, but man, that just hurts SO much.

If so, then I can get six OmniMech designs and three OmniFighter designs using just three engines:  315XL, 350XL, and 360XL.  I am also using the same Comm Systems and Targeting & Tracking Arrays on all the designs . . . just to simplify logistics even more.

Can you make a viable military force for a faction (Great House, Minor State, Clan Touman, whatever) capable of all missions using less?

Show me.

MA

EDIT:  I went ahead and bit the bullet, making the Hun have a thrust of 6/9 which gets me down to three engines for nine different designs.  Can you do better?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 12:35:55 AM by masterarminas »
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drakensis

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Re: What is the fewest number of engines you can build a viable military with?
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2015, 05:22:40 AM »
With some redesign work I think I can do the AFFS using the 120, 180, 200, 240 and 300 standard fusion engines.

The amended designs are here.

120 SFE: J. Edgar II light hover tank, Heavy APC II (a whole family of variants for utility roles), Hawk Moth II VTOL (again, a whole range of variants possible on this chassis), Stinger light scout 'Mech, Wasp light scout 'Mech

180 SFE: LRM Carrier, SRM Carrier (and possibly a Sniper artillery carrier on the same chassis), Goblin II medium tank, Striker II medium missile tank, Pegasus II medium hover tank, Scorpion II light tank, Javelin light scout 'Mech, Valkyrie II light fire support 'Mech, Blackjack air defense 'Mech

200 SFE: Corsair superiority aerospace fighter, Behemoth II assault tank, Dervish II medium fire support 'Mech, Enforcer medium shock 'Mech, Centurion general purpose 'Mech

240 SFE: Sparrowhawk interceptor aerospace fighter, Partisan air defense tank, Manticore heavy tank, Rifleman heavy fire support 'mech, Longbow II assault fire support 'Mech

300 SFE: Stuka attack aerospace fighter, Phoenix Hawk II medium scout 'Mech, Marauder heavy shock 'Mech, Atlas assault shock 'Mech

So 3 aerospace fighters, 13 battlemechs, 11+ combat vehicles off five engines
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Takiro

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Re: What is the fewest number of engines you can build a viable military with?
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2015, 07:29:08 AM »
Interesting idea MA, I wonder how far I could get using the Ubiquitous 300 XL Engine? Busy now but I'll come back to it one day
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Abele

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Re: What is the fewest number of engines you can build a viable military with?
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2015, 07:49:35 AM »
300XL is good for four weight classes (50, 60, 75, 100) for mechs. A 240 XL would fill your lightweight needs (30 and 40 tons). That's six weight weight classes for all of your battlemech needs
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masterarminas

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Re: What is the fewest number of engines you can build a viable military with?
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2015, 10:48:54 AM »
Quote from: Abele on January 16, 2015, 07:49:35 AM
300XL is good for four weight classes (50, 60, 75, 100) for mechs. A 240 XL would fill your lightweight needs (30 and 40 tons). That's six weight weight classes for all of your battlemech needs

300XL is good for FIVE weight classes:  30 tons (10/15/x), 50 tons (6/9/x), 60 tons (5/8/x), 75 tons (4/6/x), and 100 tons (3/5/x).

MA
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Takiro

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Re: What is the fewest number of engines you can build a viable military with?
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2015, 11:02:48 AM »
Before JP appears and arbitrates us all. There are 7.

http://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/mechfactory/300xl-is-omnimechs/
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 11:04:03 AM by Takiro »
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masterarminas

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Re: What is the fewest number of engines you can build a viable military with?
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2015, 11:35:47 AM »
Quote from: Takiro on January 16, 2015, 11:02:48 AM
Before JP appears and arbitrates us all. There are 7.

http://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/mechfactory/300xl-is-omnimechs/

True, but the 25-ton 12/18/x has VERY little pod-space and armor (8.0 tons for BOTH COMBINED; that is WITH endo-steel) and, while technically possible, the 20-ton 15/23/x is just not even worth it (3.5 tons for armor and pod-space . . . TOTAL).

MA
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JPArbiter

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Re: What is the fewest number of engines you can build a viable military with?
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2015, 02:29:08 PM »
Quote from: Takiro on January 16, 2015, 11:02:48 AM
Before JP appears and arbitrates us all. There are 7.

http://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/mechfactory/300xl-is-omnimechs/

THAT'S RIGHT BEEEOTCH!

The answer to the OPs question is 1, and that is the 300 XL
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JPArbiter

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Re: What is the fewest number of engines you can build a viable military with?
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2015, 02:31:09 PM »
Quote from: masterarminas on January 16, 2015, 11:35:47 AM
Quote from: Takiro on January 16, 2015, 11:02:48 AM
Before JP appears and arbitrates us all. There are 7.

http://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/mechfactory/300xl-is-omnimechs/

True, but the 25-ton 12/18/x has VERY little pod-space and armor (8.0 tons for BOTH COMBINED; that is WITH endo-steel) and, while technically possible, the 20-ton 15/23/x is just not even worth it (3.5 tons for armor and pod-space . . . TOTAL).

MA

Hey, my 20 tonner matched the Wasp/Stinger for weaponry and armor!  and the 25 tonner is not a direct combatant, but a support mech, sort of like the firestarter, Ostscout, or Raven.
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drakensis

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Re: What is the fewest number of engines you can build a viable military with?
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2015, 03:42:43 PM »
Quote from: JPArbiter on January 16, 2015, 02:31:09 PM
Hey, my 20 tonner matched the Wasp/Stinger for weaponry and armor!
I believe that falls under 'damning by faint praise' JP
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Abele

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Re: What is the fewest number of engines you can build a viable military with?
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2015, 02:23:14 AM »
Quote from: masterarminas on January 16, 2015, 10:48:54 AM
Quote from: Abele on January 16, 2015, 07:49:35 AM
300XL is good for four weight classes (50, 60, 75, 100) for mechs. A 240 XL would fill your lightweight needs (30 and 40 tons). That's six weight weight classes for all of your battlemech needs

300XL is good for FIVE weight classes:  30 tons (10/15/x), 50 tons (6/9/x), 60 tons (5/8/x), 75 tons (4/6/x), and 100 tons (3/5/x).

MA
True, but the 30-tonner will be sacrificing both armor and weapons for all that speed. That's why I didn't include the weight
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Takiro

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Re: What is the fewest number of engines you can build a viable military with?
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2015, 05:59:33 AM »
Well we know the design rules ladies and gentlemen. There are 17 ways to design a Mech, a Fighter, and a Vehicle (from 20 to 100 tons) and we have been asked to plan a modern military with as little variation in types of fusion engines possible. So besides a 300XL (can fit as many as 7 of the 17 weight classes) what else is there? The 240 is useful, so is the 350, and I know the 280 is also good. Forward your most useful engine nominee now! Remember we don't want to duplicate usefulness in weight classes. As few as we can, by the numbers please.

20 tons: 300 (15/23)
25 tons: 300 (12/18)
30 tons: 300 (10/15)
35 tons:
40 tons:
45 tons:
50 tons: 300 (6/9)
55 tons:
60 tons: 300 (5/8)
65 tons:
70 tons:
75 tons: 300 (4/6)
80 tons:
85 tons:
90 tons:
95 tons:
100 tons: 300 (3/5)

So that is ten weight classes without engines. Running some numbers now on the 240, 350, and 280. What I want to do is not duplicate to many of the other taken weight classes in this thought experiment. 55 tons is going to be a real jerk I know. I'm sure one of the engines will duplicate other classes but that is not necessarily bad as the 20 and 25 ton categories would get some better choices.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2015, 06:06:46 AM by Takiro »
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Abele

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Re: What is the fewest number of engines you can build a viable military with?
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2015, 07:01:30 AM »
A 200 will get you 20, 25, 40, 50 and 100.  A240 will get you 20 30, 40 60 and 80 tons. a 210 will get you the 35 and 70 ton category, a 270 will get you the 45 and 90. this leaves the 55, 65, 85 and 95 as the outliers that don't pair up with another weight.
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Takiro

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Re: What is the fewest number of engines you can build a viable military with?
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2015, 07:25:49 AM »
Warning this is early morning math here people so check it!!

Quote from: Abele on January 17, 2015, 07:01:30 AM
This leaves the 55, 65, 85 and 95 as the outliers that don't pair up with another weight.

These pains in the asses only have singular solutions which probably duplicate in other classes just have not checked. The 275 and 325 must be compatible with 25 tonners obviously. I would likely take the engines which can work with other weight classes in opposition to those who are only singularly useful thus defeat the purpose of this effort. Gotta check it though.

55 tons: 220 (4/6), 275 (5/8), 330 (6/9), 385 (7/11)
65 tons: 195 (3/5), 260 (4/6), 325 (5/8), 390 (6/9)
85 tons: 255 (3/5), 340 (4/6)
95 tons: 285 (3/5), 380 (4/6)

Quote
A 200 will get you 20, 25, 40, 50 and 100.  A 240 will get you 20 30, 40 60 and 80 tons.

The 200 is useful with 5 weight classes but they are all duplicates. IMO the 300 (7) working with the 240 (5) is a better option but this leads us to the Engine War!!!

Quote
A 210 will get you the 35 and 70 ton category, a 270 will get you the 45 and 90.

And here it is! The Engine War. For the main event we have a three way death match. At the 35/70 class we have the 210 put forth by Abele! In this corner we have the 280 (4 useful classes folks; 35 and 70 plus 20 and 40) put forth by Takiro! And walking to the ring is the true heavy weight favored by masterarminas the 350 (4)!!! Seriously folks the 350 could be used to eliminate the 280 as it can do 35 and 70 with 25 (14/21) and 50 (7/11). Gentlemen start your engines!!!

I imagine there is an under card with the 270 Engine (3): Gets us 2 useful weight categories (45 and 90) and duplicates once (30) or the 360 (45 and 90).
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Takiro

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Re: What is the fewest number of engines you can build a viable military with?
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2015, 07:32:46 AM »
Bottom line is right now we can power 13 weight classes with 4 engines. You add in the other 4 Fives or Prime or what ever you want to call them (55, 65, 85, 95) and for 17 weight classes you need 8 different engines minimum.

This is good for Mechs and Fighters but Vehicles could change the equation with their suspension factors.
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