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lrose
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    Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2008, 07:50:54 PM » Quote 

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Quote from: Techwarrior on January 19, 2008, 07:26:00 PM
Afraid this is where I become a little confused. Sorry.
If you can build a Jumpship and a Jump capable warship you have to be able to build very sophisticated computers.


The thing is no one understands how things work.  Sure they can build a jumpship- because they know how to put part A with Part B, but that doesn't mean they understand why it works.  And sure a jumpship may have a sophisticated navigation computer, but it is probably a specialized system and can't be used for anything else.     

To put this in real world terms- look at a modern car- they have very sophisticated computers to control everything from the brakes to the radio.  They are probably comparable to the CPUs that are in PCs.  But that doesn't mean you can use them as a PC- first you would need all of the supporting hardware (monitors, keyboard, Mouse, etc) and then you would need to rewrite all the operating software since most of these cars probably run a custom OS that is designed specifically for running cars.  Now imagine that there was a major war and every computer manufacturer/software company in the world was wiped out, but that some how one of General Motor's factories survived and can still build cars.  Fortunately for GM a small chip fabrication plant in Taiwan survived and this factory just happens to build the computers that GM needs.  So  the chip factory can produce this one chip for GM and GM knows how to program it to do 1 thing- run their cars.  That doesn't mean you can suddenly build advanced personal computers- for one thing you need additional chips beyond the CPU to control all of you IO connections (USB, Serial Port, etc), Video, etc- something which the Taiwan factory can't build unless they have plans- the chip fab knows how to build chips but not how to design them- those are 2 separate skill sets.  Then you need an operating system (like Windows) that needs to be designed to run on a particular chip (each chip speaks it's own language and you can't just run any old software on it- you need to make it so that it runs on that particular chip).  So if you have no one capable of writing software for the processor you can't make any changes, you can only program it the same way you always have. 

So hopefully this is clear and you can see why being able to build jumpships doesn't mean that the IS understands how or why they work.  Sorry for the long response- 
 
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Takiro
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     Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2008, 08:58:32 PM » Quote 

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3025 era tech is a little confusing. Basically the Houses beat the snot out of each and ComStar was whacking anybody smart enough to rebuild high tech stuff. While the Houses continued to build Dropships and Jumpships during this time, they really didn't understand why things worked. Basically people used existing tech and passed on the knowledge. At least that is my understanding.
 
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     Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2008, 09:31:43 PM » Quote 

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Wow, Irose and Takiro. Thanks!!

That scenario has to be one of the most frightening scenarios ever written. Wow.

You have companies building Jumpships that they have no clue on how to really build but doing it anyway out of necessity. Also building war machines that they hope will continue to work properly while not blowing up in their face or that someone on the production line didn't miss a step in what he or she was supposed to do in their assigned task.
No true mechanics, just parts replacer’s. As Irose put it a lot like the auto and industrial mechanics today. Ok, I finally understand BT, these people really don't understand technology they are using until possibly 3067 and then the majority still does not understand.
Except the Clans who designed their own technology based on Star League equipment and had to build all their own factories including parts from the ground up, but compared to the people of the IS the Clan scientists had to be genius’s. They would have basically had to reinvent the wheel. Wow now there is pulling ones self up by the bootstraps!
 
 
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Takiro
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     Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2008, 11:32:47 PM » Quote 

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It is one reason that the denizens of the InnerSphere (really the militaries) fail to realize how destructive war can be. For years them and the Clans have practiced limited war. They probably never grasped what would happen if nukes and other stuff were utilized to their fullest potential. 
 
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      Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2008, 09:44:51 AM » Quote 

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Quote from: Techwarrior on January 19, 2008, 05:28:59 PM
Though I do find Ice very informed and interesting.


My job is to be informed but I do not belong to ComStar. 

As for the tech level in 3025, let us say that during the first two Succession Wars, factories were destroyed and technicians were killed (a rather short sighted view).
Once the dust cleared, you had few surviving automatic factories and a bit more non automatic factories (with few people understanding what they did there).
With few technicians and scientists available, things became worst and worst.

This is why the Inner Sphere can build advanced gear in 3025 but few (just look at TRO 3025 to understand this) and without understanding how it works (this goes even for ComStar and its religious approach).
This explains why the Third Succession War was a limited one with mainly skirmishes and deep raids.
 
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In Turn they tested each Clan namesake in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle. Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down. All failed to match the predator's speed and grace. Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage: 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5
 
 
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     Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2008, 12:47:46 PM » Quote 

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I get it now.

I still do not believe that in all of known space (look at the IS map on S7) there was not one visionary, one person on one planet somewhere that couldn’t or wouldn’t have saved some of the technology and kept it running.
 I afraid what I find in CBT is its lack of pointing out human ingenuity. We are the most conniving, imaginative, secretive, ingenious, beings in the known universe even in CBT. Yet we fail at every turn of our future endeavors.
There is not even someone with Walt Disney’s futuristic outlook or foresight in BT. Not one. Not even for a short time. Star League came close but no prize.
The Clans are the only hope in that vain of thought. If they were to reform themselves into what they were supposed to be. Then join with Terra instead of conquer it.
 
 
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lrose
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    Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2008, 01:26:28 PM » Quote 

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Quote from: Techwarrior on January 20, 2008, 12:47:46 PM
I get it now.

I still do not believe that in all of known space (look at the IS map on S7) there was not one visionary, one person on one planet somewhere that couldn’t or wouldn’t have saved some of the technology and kept it running.


Do you realize how hard it is to keep modern technology running?  Look at a computer among the technologies put into it:
You need people to design the computer chips used- which includes the CPU which does the computation, video chips which can control a display, I/O interfaces (USB, Ethernet, etc), Memory controllers, Hard Drive Controllers, Memory chips.
 
Then once you have the logic design of the chips (how they work) you need to people to do the physical design- placing the transistors, designing the transistors that make up the logic circuits, developing the materials that are needed for the chips.

Then it needs to be manufactured, which involves a very large clean room and  a number of people to handle the process- which involves manufacturing the silicon wafers, doping it, creating masks for the circuit traces, and testing the chips.

Then you need people to design the circuit boards - both the logic design (how it works) and the physical design (putting components on the board and connecting them together.

And as with the chips you need people to actually manufacture the board, which involves similar steps to making the a chip (but on a larger scale).

Then you need people to write code for the system- at the bare minimum you need code to power the system up and initialize all of the components and settings, then you need an operating system to run the computer, drivers for all of the devices attached to it, then you need people to write applications, like Word Processors, Spreadsheets, video games, etc.

And I haven't even touched on the other systems that are needed- keyboards, monitors, hard drives, etc


If this is a bit detailed it is because my background is computer engineering- I have designed computer circuit boards- and while I am familiar with all jobs involved involved in building a computer from raw materials to the finished profuct, each job is highly specialized.  Each job requires significant amount of specialized knowledge- lose any of it and the whole system breaks down.  It is not reasonable to assume that one person - no matter how smart they are- can have all of the knowledge needed to build a computer (or any other sufficently advanced technology) from raw materials to a finished product.
 
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      Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2008, 02:17:42 PM » Quote 

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Quote from: Techwarrior on January 20, 2008, 12:47:46 PM
The Clans are the only hope in that vain of thought. If they were to reform themselves into what they were supposed to be. Then join with Terra instead of conquer it.


Beware, you are on the road to heresy 

More seriously, I do agree with Irose here.
If you want to look at it from a different yet similar point of view read "The Ice People" (aka La Nuit des Temps) from René Barjavel.
 
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In Turn they tested each Clan namesake in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle. Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down. All failed to match the predator's speed and grace. Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage: 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5
 
 
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     Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2008, 03:06:27 PM » Quote 

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Irose I do understand what your saying.
Wife is a computer programmer, I have a computer science degree, but my real background is in maintenance, facility and production.
I understand exactly what you are pointing out to me and I didn't say I would change the universe CBT or SD with my opinions. As I said, I look at a the map of the IS (you can leave out the periphery states) and I am in awe. Not one planet was able to save the technology? Computer or anything else?
Well I imagine we could go at this forever, and I will concede this point.

As to heresy? I believe the Clans are my only saving grace of proof that you can start over with nearly nothing and create a better wheel.
 
 
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lrose
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    Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2008, 03:22:12 PM » Quote 

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Quote from: Techwarrior on January 20, 2008, 03:06:27 PM
As I said, I look at a the map of the IS (you can leave out the periphery states) and I am in awe. Not one planet was able to save the technology? Computer or anything else?
Well I imagine we could go at this forever, and I will concede this point.



One planet was able to save their advanced technology- Niops out in the periphery- even in 3025 they could build star league era tech- they just didn't tell anyone. 

The problem the IS (and periphery) faced was their interdependance.  Many worlds were dependent on trade for something- whether it was food, water purification technology or parts for power plants.  When trade was almost completely halted during the 1st SW, those worlds suffered greatly- either being abandoned, dying off or having to make great sacrifices to survive.  On the other hand, the heavily industrialized worlds which were self-sufficient were key targets for the enemy and would be nuke, gassed or just razed during the fighting.  The add in the fact that Comstar actively tried to prevent people from recovering lost technology- during the 2nd SW every time a scientist came close to recovering a piece of Star League technology, he was killed and his research destroyed.   This is how you get the Inner Sphere of 3025.   
 
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     Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2008, 04:01:40 PM » Quote 

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Yes, I can understand, and I am glad to hear that one planet was able to hold onto technology. Whew!
I could see exactly what the United States is doing happening across the universe (outsourcing.) Yes it would be easy to loose your technological advantages, even if you had the knowledge of how to make or build something you no longer have the start to finish engineering or production at home and now you would have to start from scratch most likely without any of the basic tools or talent available.
Yes at best, you would have parts replacer’s and line operators. Management would be fine as long as the correct parts arrived but let the wrong parts arrive or possibly replacement parts that call for modifications not already given to said management and now you have chaos at best. Add to that never ending succession wars, yes manufacturing would go down the proverbial toilet.

I will have to look up this Niops, this Utopia among the stars. It sounds very interesting. Sort of an Atlantis in space.
 
 
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lrose
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    Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2008, 04:11:33 PM » Quote 

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Quote from: Techwarrior on January 20, 2008, 04:01:40 PM
I will have to look up this Niops, this Utopia among the stars. It sounds very interesting. Sort of an Atlantis in space.




I wouldn't go that far in describing Niops- it's a great place if you are one of the ruling class, not so great if you are part of uneducated masses. Although they have been changing that a bit in the last few decades....
 
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     Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2008, 05:24:06 PM » Quote 

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Threw me for a little, thought Niops was a planet. Figured it out, yes they are going to be in trouble, from what I saw they would become part of the Marian Hegemony, then eventually part of The Free Worlds League. That would explain how the Mariks were able to industrialize so quickly.
 
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lrose
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    Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2008, 07:07:52 PM » Quote 

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Quote from: Techwarrior on January 20, 2008, 05:24:06 PM
Threw me for a little, thought Niops was a planet. Figured it out, yes they are going to be in trouble, from what I saw they would become part of the Marian Hegemony, then eventually part of The Free Worlds League. That would explain how the Mariks were able to industrialize so quickly.


Huh?Niops has been independent from the fall of the SL through the Dark Age time frame- It is located between the FWL, Marian Hegemony and Magistracy of Canopus.  They were never a part of the FWL or the MOC. 
 
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     Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2008, 06:33:48 PM » Quote 

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I have to learn to put down where I find my info, of course now I can't find that article that stated that the Niops was invaded.
Closest I could come was not a canon source, which doesn't count.
My apologize!
 
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     Carry over of factions
« on: December 31, 2007, 12:53:21 AM » Quote 

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Saw this sort of started and died. Am curious what factions everyone is iinterested in and I really don't want to go back into archives to find out. So I choose the easy way, ask.


Mine are as follows and not in the listed order:
Outworlds Alliance, Grey Death Legion, Wolfs Dragoons, Kell Hounds, Mariks up until the Jihad.
Clans, Wolf, Coyote, Ghost Bear, Snow Ravens.
Deep Space Cavalry.
 
 
 

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     Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2007, 04:35:03 AM » Quote 

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Unfortunately my friend I will not disclose my future plot development plans. Have to keep you interested and surprised about some stuff.  I can say you'll see more of the Periphery but they will still be side players, the Clans will be vastly different, and Terrans at the core!! 

While we have ideas to do right up to 3025 and beyond many specifics are yet to be determined. I'm always opened to suggestions as well.

Question, what would you like to see 

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     Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2007, 09:50:19 AM » Quote 

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A Terran Naval Reserve brought out of mothballs? Most major nations today have fleets in mothball larger than their active fleets. Older ships, but still could be refurbished.
It goes for all the Armed Forces:
Air Force has aircraft and equipment in sealed hangers, though not as much as they used too.
Army is the worst packrat of them all. It has been verified that the US Army has enough equipment in storage to outfit 1 complete War Time Army, and that is with equipment no older than ten years old. They also can outfit another Peace Time Army with older equipment they still have stored
My point is that all militaries everywhere hide things or store equipment in mass and most of the time it was brand new or refurbished before it is put in storage. Why would Terran Republic be any different?
If the Terran Republic is to be invaded and conquered I would like to see a group of military, ex-military, mercenary’s, find another group of personnel. In one way or another they band together using cached weapons, make plans and come out fighting or something along the lines of how the Grey Death Legion was started. You get the idea.
 

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     Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2008, 11:55:16 PM » Quote 

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Ok everyone, I am writing a story (alternate universe) about an undiscovered clan, I think it is a good story, Ice and several others have given assistance in ideas and direction.

Now I am coming to the part that I normally do not care for, what kind of uniforms, etc. I have looked at alternative Clans, and Canon Clans. What I have tried to do was find out more about Clan Mongoose, have gotten the basics, but not any real depth of the Clan. It seems that they were there for a while grew to one of the largest of the Clans, said bad things in Council and tried to use the Remembrance at every turn to prove their way of thinking.

They were on Eden, and Shadow only? They had no Warships? They originally were one of the mightiest Clans but no one wanted their equipment or their Giftake? Is it me, did I miss something, or were we just short changed on this Clan? Everyone has a theory of course none of it is canon.
So I'm using Mongoose in my story and am looking for info on them. I've been to Hall of Khans, Warhawk PPC, Patricks, Chaos March, Skye Rangers, etc. all say about the same thing. Have I missed a source that anyone knows about?
One last question, Jade Falcons, or Smoke Jaguar military structure considered best?

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      Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2008, 02:25:07 PM » Quote 

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I checked but I could not find more info.

Techwarrior
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     Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2008, 02:39:22 PM » Quote 

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In the 3025, I would like to see equipment of the DSC with pics. Maybe a short write up like Takiro did on the 7th Cav.

 Something on the condition of the I.S. (politics, who is in charge of what House) there is to much info spread all over the canon mags. Not all of us have the time of money to gather all that info. I do not believe it would be plagiarism if you gave details of some of the heads of houses of this or earlier times. You know a family tree of the Great Houses. One can really get lost sometimes. Then if your real ambitious the family trees of the Periphery States or reverse order as they should be easier to do.


I also would like to see more info on the core that the Gray Death Legion recovered. That has always been a gray (get it) area, with little tid bits thrown out. If they recovered a core why wasn't there a great resurgence in technology of all types?

Why did no one ever figure out who or what the Wolf Dragoons were? Why didn't any of the Great Houses figure out anything about this mercenary band? Were their revered and feared secret services sitting on their collective hands with their heads in the sand? Please don't say they couldn't do anything because of wars. Wars are when the secret services of all nations expand.

Why were not more Bryan Caches found? Bryan Castles, etc? They would have made excellent bases.

These are just a few thoughts or ideas. There seems to be a limited but talented group of people here, see if some of this knowledge can be brought out to assist you in your endeavors. As most have figured out by now I am not overly astute in BT canon and own very few books in this subject matter. The Internet is my library and S7 so as vast as it may seem, it is limited.