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lrose
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    Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2008, 07:07:07 PM » Quote 

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Quote from: Techwarrior on January 19, 2008, 02:39:22 PM
I also would like to see more info on the core that the Gray Death Legion recovered. That has always been a gray (get it) area, with little tid bits thrown out. If they recovered a core why wasn't there a great resurgence in technology of all types?


There was a resurgence in a variety of technologies, aerospace, medical, planet forming, etc. But this is a wargame and the main focus of the books is on the military technologies- that said the new TRO30309 preview for the Vulcan Battlemech mentions how a mechwarrior's life was saved by medical cures recovered from the GD Memory Core, I believe the HDHB mentions how data from the memory core was used to stabilize the enviroment on Galax.   There's more, but I don't have all the references.



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Why did no one ever figure out who or what the Wolf Dragoons were? Why didn't any of the Great Houses figure out anything about this mercenary band? Were their revered and feared secret services sitting on their collective hands with their heads in the sand? Please don't say they couldn't do anything because of wars. Wars are when the secret services of all nations expand.


Because the Dragoons weren't talking.  And they had the technology to keep the IS powers out of their databases- if the IS can barely build a computer, do you really think they will have the ability to crack the Dragoon's security systems?
 

lrose
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    Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2008, 07:50:54 PM » Quote 

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Quote from: Techwarrior on January 19, 2008, 07:26:00 PM
Afraid this is where I become a little confused. Sorry.
If you can build a Jumpship and a Jump capable warship you have to be able to build very sophisticated computers.


The thing is no one understands how things work.  Sure they can build a jumpship- because they know how to put part A with Part B, but that doesn't mean they understand why it works.  And sure a jumpship may have a sophisticated navigation computer, but it is probably a specialized system and can't be used for anything else.     

To put this in real world terms- look at a modern car- they have very sophisticated computers to control everything from the brakes to the radio.  They are probably comparable to the CPUs that are in PCs.  But that doesn't mean you can use them as a PC- first you would need all of the supporting hardware (monitors, keyboard, Mouse, etc) and then you would need to rewrite all the operating software since most of these cars probably run a custom OS that is designed specifically for running cars.  Now imagine that there was a major war and every computer manufacturer/software company in the world was wiped out, but that some how one of General Motor's factories survived and can still build cars.  Fortunately for GM a small chip fabrication plant in Taiwan survived and this factory just happens to build the computers that GM needs.  So  the chip factory can produce this one chip for GM and GM knows how to program it to do 1 thing- run their cars.  That doesn't mean you can suddenly build advanced personal computers- for one thing you need additional chips beyond the CPU to control all of you IO connections (USB, Serial Port, etc), Video, etc- something which the Taiwan factory can't build unless they have plans- the chip fab knows how to build chips but not how to design them- those are 2 separate skill sets.  Then you need an operating system (like Windows) that needs to be designed to run on a particular chip (each chip speaks it's own language and you can't just run any old software on it- you need to make it so that it runs on that particular chip).  So if you have no one capable of writing software for the processor you can't make any changes, you can only program it the same way you always have. 

So hopefully this is clear and you can see why being able to build jumpships doesn't mean that the IS understands how or why they work.  Sorry for the long response- 

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     Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2008, 09:31:43 PM » Quote 

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Wow, Irose and Takiro. Thanks!!

That scenario has to be one of the most frightening scenarios ever written. Wow.

You have companies building Jumpships that they have no clue on how to really build but doing it anyway out of necessity. Also building war machines that they hope will continue to work properly while not blowing up in their face or that someone on the production line didn't miss a step in what he or she was supposed to do in their assigned task.
No true mechanics, just parts replacer’s. As Irose put it a lot like the auto and industrial mechanics today. Ok, I finally understand BT, these people really don't understand technology they are using until possibly 3067 and then the majority still does not understand.
Except the Clans who designed their own technology based on Star League equipment and had to build all their own factories including parts from the ground up, but compared to the people of the IS the Clan scientists had to be genius’s. They would have basically had to reinvent the wheel. Wow now there is pulling ones self up by the bootstraps!
 

Ice Hellion
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      Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2008, 09:44:51 AM » Quote 

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Quote from: Techwarrior on January 19, 2008, 05:28:59 PM
Though I do find Ice very informed and interesting.


My job is to be informed but I do not belong to ComStar. 

As for the tech level in 3025, let us say that during the first two Succession Wars, factories were destroyed and technicians were killed (a rather short sighted view).
Once the dust cleared, you had few surviving automatic factories and a bit more non automatic factories (with few people understanding what they did there).
With few technicians and scientists available, things became worst and worst.

This is why the Inner Sphere can build advanced gear in 3025 but few (just look at TRO 3025 to understand this) and without understanding how it works (this goes even for ComStar and its religious approach).
This explains why the Third Succession War was a limited one with mainly skirmishes and deep raids.

lrose
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    Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2008, 01:26:28 PM » Quote 

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Quote from: Techwarrior on January 20, 2008, 12:47:46 PM
I get it now.

I still do not believe that in all of known space (look at the IS map on S7) there was not one visionary, one person on one planet somewhere that couldn’t or wouldn’t have saved some of the technology and kept it running.


Do you realize how hard it is to keep modern technology running?  Look at a computer among the technologies put into it:
You need people to design the computer chips used- which includes the CPU which does the computation, video chips which can control a display, I/O interfaces (USB, Ethernet, etc), Memory controllers, Hard Drive Controllers, Memory chips.
 
Then once you have the logic design of the chips (how they work) you need to people to do the physical design- placing the transistors, designing the transistors that make up the logic circuits, developing the materials that are needed for the chips.

Then it needs to be manufactured, which involves a very large clean room and  a number of people to handle the process- which involves manufacturing the silicon wafers, doping it, creating masks for the circuit traces, and testing the chips.

Then you need people to design the circuit boards - both the logic design (how it works) and the physical design (putting components on the board and connecting them together.

And as with the chips you need people to actually manufacture the board, which involves similar steps to making the a chip (but on a larger scale).

Then you need people to write code for the system- at the bare minimum you need code to power the system up and initialize all of the components and settings, then you need an operating system to run the computer, drivers for all of the devices attached to it, then you need people to write applications, like Word Processors, Spreadsheets, video games, etc.

And I haven't even touched on the other systems that are needed- keyboards, monitors, hard drives, etc


If this is a bit detailed it is because my background is computer engineering- I have designed computer circuit boards- and while I am familiar with all jobs involved involved in building a computer from raw materials to the finished profuct, each job is highly specialized.  Each job requires significant amount of specialized knowledge- lose any of it and the whole system breaks down.  It is not reasonable to assume that one person - no matter how smart they are- can have all of the knowledge needed to build a computer (or any other sufficently advanced technology) from raw materials to a finished product.

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     Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2008, 03:06:27 PM » Quote 

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Irose I do understand what your saying.
Wife is a computer programmer, I have a computer science degree, but my real background is in maintenance, facility and production.
I understand exactly what you are pointing out to me and I didn't say I would change the universe CBT or SD with my opinions. As I said, I look at a the map of the IS (you can leave out the periphery states) and I am in awe. Not one planet was able to save the technology? Computer or anything else?
Well I imagine we could go at this forever, and I will concede this point.

As to heresy? I believe the Clans are my only saving grace of proof that you can start over with nearly nothing and create a better wheel.
 

Techwarrior
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     Re: Carry over of factions
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2008, 04:01:40 PM » Quote 

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Yes, I can understand, and I am glad to hear that one planet was able to hold onto technology. Whew!
I could see exactly what the United States is doing happening across the universe (outsourcing.) Yes it would be easy to loose your technological advantages, even if you had the knowledge of how to make or build something you no longer have the start to finish engineering or production at home and now you would have to start from scratch most likely without any of the basic tools or talent available.
Yes at best, you would have parts replacer’s and line operators. Management would be fine as long as the correct parts arrived but let the wrong parts arrive or possibly replacement parts that call for modifications not already given to said management and now you have chaos at best. Add to that never ending succession wars, yes manufacturing would go down the proverbial toilet.

I will have to look up this Niops, this Utopia among the stars. It sounds very interesting. Sort of an Atlantis in space.