OBT Forum
General BattleTech => Universal News & Reports => Shattered Dawn => Alternate Universe => Inner Sphere => Topic started by: Takiro on July 17, 2010, 07:19:08 AM
-
Well folks plenty of historical goodness? Implications are vast and a plenty and I have only skimmed it. First off let me tell you SPOILERS!!!
Stefan Amaris was confirmed by the people of the Hegemony in a relatively fair vote. ::)
-
Stefan Amaris was confirmed by the people of the Hegemony in a relatively fair vote. ::)
Really? Fair?
This sounds incredible.
-
Stefan Amaris was confirmed by the people of the Hegemony in a relatively fair vote. ::)
Hmmmm... Happened this vote before or after the throne room massacre of Christmas 2766?
Oh and by the way: According to http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,64346.msg1538884.html#msg1538884 (http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,64346.msg1538884.html#msg1538884) over at CBT the WOB flagship Righteous Justice is/was a Farragut-class Battleship!!!
Ciao
Hessian
Note: edited an error regarding the date of the throne room massacre.
-
What I saw as most important was the section on Terra and specifically the part that shreds the Hegemony's self respect in that they happily voted the Usurper in.
Well it replaces one improbable event with another, the SLDF desertion makes more sense but the supposed vote doesn't so it is back to square one really. I suppose a figleaf could be made out of an alliance of all the non-Cameron cronies finally getting a shot at dynastic succession, Rim brutality angainst Cameron loyalists and a swift media blitz - Amaris was a Hegemony citizen IIRC so it wouldn't be an outright foreign usurpation. But it is a very small figleaf...
-
Okay gang I’ve been reading Touring Terra which details historical events from the 20th century to present. TPTB have worked in their own interpretations of old canon drawing some new interesting conclusions.
The Terran Alliance is presented more as an alliance of sovereign states then ever before whose members were less independent as its bureaucracy grew out of control. Less Expansionist versus Liberals and more big government run amok that was more and more disconnected from the people.
Things got so bad that the last American President and an unknown number Senators were “lynched†in the final days of the Alliance as part of “liberationâ€.
The uber rich of Mars, Cray’s STL colony from ISP2, and New Dallas are all referred to again. India, Brazil, and America got the choice colonies closest to Terra so their impact on InnerSphere colonization was limited. Ultimately they were fanatical Hegemony supporters and destroyed during the Succession War.
I can’t believe HRAD couldn’t successfully develop paper prophylactics.
And then there is the disgusting comparison between James McKenna and Stefan Amaris whose elections are referred to as “fairâ€. They sully up the Hegemony’s Founder with a few mentions of early academy scandals but neglect the facts of the Usurper’s rise who pulls off a Katherine style takeover. No doubt TPTB would play devils advocate saying both men rose to power via military coups but come on! I guess Richard Cameron was an idiot and the High Council could nominate Amaris to the people but didn’t they hear about any of his deeds? The Usurper was Richard’s closest friend for god sake! Even if you heard none of the atrocities that relationship doesn’t exactly scream change for the better. Oh and what happened to all the other Cameron claimants who by law should at least be consulted on succession which is their rite. Yes they are all dead but wouldn’t you notice their absence??
More reading to come.
-
There is more enjoyable talk of Hegemony greatness including women giving birth in their second century. 100 years plus having kids seems sort of nuts to me but hey I guess it is possible in this high science setting. We are also introduced to Count Chaffins of Seattle (the Pacific Northwest) and CEO of Boeing who successfully lobbies for the capital of the Star League only to get caught in scandal. He becomes the SL era Machiavelli writing On Politics while imprisoned for his crimes which is similar to The Prince.
The dance that is weaved in Terra in the Amaris Coup kind of boggles the mind. Essentially you are asked as the reader to forget about what you know of the Usurper and Kerensky replacing or revising it with this. Seems that old Stefan was many things to many different people including that drooling idiot Richard Cameron who is portrayed as a hated despot far removed from the daily struggles of life. I don’t know if Richard has now dropped to the point of an inbred royal but he isn’t doing well when it comes to revisionist history. Anywho Amaris who I remember introduced himself as a country bumpkin is now portrayed as intelligent and sensible “a man who pretended to be a fool to befriend the real foolâ€. This seems a bit much to me. Kerensky now rivals Victor for heroic lunacy and I must presume that he was the foil for the Usurper. In other words doing his logical best to carry out the insane orders of the Dope Cameron and being hated for it.
When Amaris deposes Richard and the Camerons in the same way McKenna deposed the Alliance (not my words folks) Kerensky is actually despised by the Terrans at first. Now Amaris does have the help of highly placed collaborators in the Hegemony but to receive more than two-thirds of the populace support seems a tad much. In any event the Terrans at first were now vigorous supporters of their new Director-General against Kerensky. BTW, the colonization of the Rim Worlds by large numbers of Hegemony citizens is canonized within this all putting a small feather in my cap.
This leads to the discussion of the Star League Civil War which I can appreciate somewhat. Kerensky and Amaris struggle for control of the Hegemony while the Houses made their own plans. Hegemony nobles who intermarried with InnerSphere families help to link Amaris with the Great Houses somewhat. The Lords of the High Council built their armies to eventually press their own claim no matter who won the war. Talk of Amaris being forced to claim the title of Emperor of the Star League on legal reasons (Camerons only could be the First Lord) seems a little forced. Again I remember the Usurper talking of an Amaris Empire not a Star League which is very different to me. No mention of my Second Lord suggestion which makes more sense.
It was only in the end that Amaris earned the hatred of the Terrans for open use of brutal force to maintain his crumbling base. Noble Guards are now mentioned among mercenaries as Amaris fanatics fighting to the very end for the Usurper long after public opinion turned. Deamarisification swept the Hegemony afterwards with anyone supporting the Usurper barred from service in the new government. The way this is portrayed is odd to me as it again makes the SLDF sound as a bystander – weren’t they the government by force, i.e. military occupation?
With even tacit supporters of Amaris banned the post liberation government was doomed to failure. The Hegemony could best hunt down these war criminals often competing with vigilantes but the planets of the nation seem to set their own agenda creating a basket case that Kerensky choose to leave. He again takes scorn for this action. I doubt he would press his own claim as First Lord which it seems he would have to do if you read this making it a much worse 1st Succession War. Me I’d go for neutrality as the Republic does in my AU if I were Kerensky and try to mediate the conflict. However he has now risen to such ineptitude that I doubt he or his buddy Victor could figure that out.
Back to reading!
-
Any technological revelations - like a Caspar perhaps?
I noted a drone fighter record sheet, perhaps something that the TR could duplicate under SW1.
-
Yes CJvR plenty of technological revelations including mobile structures. Remember my Submarine SDS well they basically have that along with the a mobile land SDS ala MechCommander I believe. Plus plenty of other stuff. Right now I'm focused on historical information that impacts our storyline.
Just read Terra Under ComStar which describes the era well. The canon Hegemony was so inept it boggles the mind. Chicago basically starved by government order as Keid, an agricultural world, got its foodstuffs. There was a corrupt corporate leader who claimed Keid was starving and naive officials in the central government who failed to discern the truth. The most infamous example was essentially corporate greed aided by bureaucratic stupidity of the highest order. ComStar was the only organization who could get things done on Terra and hence their setup for Silver Shield was perfect.
-
What about the atrocities done by Amaris and his troops?
They disappeared?
-
Well the vote likely happened early in 2767 - at that point what was really known? His role in the Periphery Uprising was completely unknown and the Throne Massacre could have been concealed to an extent. "Hey what happened to all those Cameron candidates? Umm, they are dead tired." And he did have help from Quislings in the Hegemony government which includes the Hegemony (High) Council. After all he was Richard's best friend for years and could easily manipulate these positions by filling them with candidates he could control.
-
Interesting notes with warship production. Titan yards and industry are old but very capable. Could restore the InnerSphere merchant fleet after the Jihad quickly is a direct quote, also McKenna's original warship build is noted for impressive production numbers that can not be matched by the modern IS showing their poor space industry.
-
Thought I might jump in with an out of AU perspective. I love what you guys do here and having not been part of the team, I hope I can help with trying to balance JHS Terra with this awsome AU. I actually think JHST will add more than it takes away
I actually think this adds a nice reality to the whole image of the Star League. Every source book that has looked at the Hegemony and the League has done so from a Rose Tinted glasses perspective, with JHS Terra being the first to look at the underbelly. All govts have one and one that rules all of mankind will certainly have a dark one.
Study enough history and suddenly the SL sourcebook and others become little more than historical propaganda pieces. This ugly side of the Hegemony and the League is much more in fitting with actions like the reunification war and the Hegemony/SL's massive armaments programs. These were people who wanted to rule the known universe and would do what ever was required to ensure that.
The dance that is weaved in Terra in the Amaris Coup kind of boggles the mind. Essentially you are asked as the reader to forget about what you know of the Usurper and Kerensky replacing or revising it with this.
Again, its a different perspective that put a human face on the high and mighty who have always been viewed as modern saints by many. these were political animals, used to great power and wealth and would have first and foremost have wanted to protect thier personal standing. Its human nature.
Seems that old Stefan was many things to many different people including that drooling idiot Richard Cameron who is portrayed as a hated despot far removed from the daily struggles of life. I don’t know if Richard has now dropped to the point of an inbred royal but he isn’t doing well when it comes to revisionist history. Anywho Amaris who I remember introduced himself as a country bumpkin is now portrayed as intelligent and sensible “a man who pretended to be a fool to befriend the real foolâ€. This seems a bit much to me.
I think this is the first account of Amaris as he really was. If your going to take down the SL Govt so you can ascend the throne, you had better be bloody well switched on. All things to all men is what you want to be, in that way you can manipulate and control those around you whilst keeping largely clean, or apparently so. Later histories would focus on his poorer, stupider faces to paint him as badly as possible.
Kerensky now rivals Victor for heroic lunacy and I must presume that he was the foil for the Usurper. In other words doing his logical best to carry out the insane orders of the Dope Cameron and being hated for it.
This would not be the first case in history of intelligent, but honour bound men, following a less than capable lord due to thier honour code and copping the flak for it.
When Amaris deposes Richard and the Camerons in the same way McKenna deposed the Alliance (not my words folks) Kerensky is actually despised by the Terrans at first.
Why not, he faied in his own mission as Regent to make something of Richard (well done Amaris), and has been killing the sons and daughters of the Hegemony in a bloody brush war on the fringes of civilisation. He could have been seen as culpable for many of the recent setbacks in govt policy.
Now Amaris does have the help of highly placed collaborators in the Hegemony but to receive more than two-thirds of the populace support seems a tad much.
Not if you work the system, quickly and efficiently and use all those collaborators who owe you big. With 10 years planning, bribing and suddenly presenting a viable alternative to 20 years of hopeless government whilst a major war is on...stranger things have happened.
In any event the Terrans at first were now vigorous supporters of their new Director-General against Kerensky. BTW, the colonization of the Rim Worlds by large numbers of Hegemony citizens is canonized within this all putting a small feather in my cap.
Well done Sir. However, if Kerensky was seen as an arse for what happended with Richard, and I'm sure Amaris's media arm made sure of that, then with Amaris calling politly for him to come home a join the team in peace but instead making what could be seen as a declaration of war on the Hegemony, I'm sure there were a lot of media confused people who started calling him an idiot. Just think, Amaris and Friends, each day at 7.
This leads to the discussion of the Star League Civil War which I can appreciate somewhat. Kerensky and Amaris struggle for control of the Hegemony while the Houses made their own plans. Hegemony nobles who intermarried with InnerSphere families help to link Amaris with the Great Houses somewhat. The Lords of the High Council built their armies to eventually press their own claim no matter who won the war.
Very much so, when the mess hits the fan, its each power out for themselves. Interests take hold over any high minded ideals.
Talk of Amaris being forced to claim the title of Emperor of the Star League on legal reasons (Camerons only could be the First Lord) seems a little forced. Again I remember the Usurper talking of an Amaris Empire not a Star League which is very different to me. No mention of my Second Lord suggestion which makes more sense.
Keeps it legal. Opponents of Amaris, if he had gone for DG, could have attacked him on legal grounds. and an Empire. Maybe a few Terrans liked that. Time to teach the Houses a lesson maybe, could play well with some.
It was only in the end that Amaris earned the hatred of the Terrans for open use of brutal force to maintain his crumbling base. Noble Guards are now mentioned among mercenaries as Amaris fanatics fighting to the very end for the Usurper long after public opinion turned. Deamarisification swept the Hegemony afterwards with anyone supporting the Usurper barred from service in the new government. The way this is portrayed is odd to me as it again makes the SLDF sound as a bystander – weren’t they the government by force, i.e. military occupation?
Yes, the fickle public were probably royally pissed at both sides for bringing the first major war to the homeworlds and ruining thier high life. The noble guards et al are those willing collaborators who are hitched to the wagon for better or for worse. They have little chance due to open public support during the regime, but to go down with the ship. Maybe they were bribed originally or came over as Amaris seemed the better chance. In the end it would not matter. I am not suprised the SLDF was a bystander, as they were not designed to be the govt. They would have done what they could, but the old code of honour would liklely prevent them from stepping in to take control of the TH. With the people turning on the govt, the war still on and the houses sniffing arround, it would have been chaos. The SLDF was taking such horrendous losses, that their entire focus would have been on keeping the men in the line. Thts where guys like Blake come in, but with the loss of the govt, he cannot do all that much.
With even tacit supporters of Amaris banned the post liberation government was doomed to failure. The Hegemony could best hunt down these war criminals often competing with vigilantes but the planets of the nation seem to set their own agenda creating a basket case that Kerensky choose to leave. He again takes scorn for this action.
Why not, in the peoples eyes, he failed with Richard, he brought on a massive and hugely destructive war, dropped the ball with regards to reconstruction, failed to get the house Lords to keep the SL going and then did not want to step in, take the reigns and fix the problems when he was the last one left who could. It might not be all his fault, but public perception is rarely guided by rational thought.
I doubt he would press his own claim as First Lord which it seems he would have to do if you read this making it a much worse 1st Succession War. Me I’d go for neutrality as the Republic does in my AU if I were Kerensky and try to mediate the conflict. However he has now risen to such ineptitude that I doubt he or his buddy Victor could figure that out.
He saw the writing on the wall, war either way and a TH that was not overly fond of him. A man who's life, dedication and dreams have all been burnt by those he tried so nobelly and hard to do the best by. Its little wonder that he left, I would have too. Especially too, since the House Lords made it clear that they were not going to listen to him.
But in the end, you can keep most of this and not effect your AU. Add a Time to Reflect chapter to Threat Assesments. The Terran Republic looks back and what really happened. Your new leaders stepped in early and kept the witch hunt to the top levels of the collaborators, making some fine examples, but giving the lower ranks a chance to mend the damage. The action is not popular and leads to years of animosity and hard calls by the govt, but assures that the core worlds will recover and sets the frame work for the recovery once AK leaves. He cannot see the repair happening fast enough and still dissolusioned leaves anyway. By the end of the 1st War, the lower govt officials, now experinaced, have prooved themselves and repayed thier debt, as they resuce the Terran Republic and keep it as the bastion of strength and technology in the sphere as well as making sure the recovery worked. By repairing all the damage Amaris and AK have done, they are seen as the true heros of the last 50 years. the little guys that counted, always doing ther best for the people, despite thodds of those in power, aided by a massive media campaign.
Anyway, just a few thoughts that might help. I actually think JHS Terra can add more to your AU than it will take away.
Really looking forwards to how you tie it all in eventually.
-
Hmmm...Interesting thoughts Blacknova.
-
Why not, he faied in his own mission as Regent to make something of Richard (well done Amaris), and has been killing the sons and daughters of the Hegemony in a bloody brush war on the fringes of civilisation. He could have been seen as culpable for many of the recent setbacks in govt policy.
Not sure.
It depends on how the government is seen: Richard was the one giving orders.
Was he seen as a puppet following Kerensky's orders?
-
Anybody read this yet?
The section on Terra and the Hegemony is particularly interesting. Especially the bit as to why the people of the Terran Hegemony supported Amaris during the Coup and why the Hegemony flat out failed when the Coup ended.
I always wondered why it took ten years to conquer the Hegemony, well...now I know. :D
-
Regarding new equipment:
Is someone of those that purchased the pdf able and willing to enlighten me what a “Dragon’s Breath†Multiple Capital Missile Launch System is exactly?
Is this just a renamed AR-10 launcher?
Or is this something of an improved AR-10 that has the added ability to simultaneously launch several capital missiles at once? E.g. one Killer Whale, one White Shark and one Barracuda?
Thanks in advance.
Hessian
-
Anybody read this yet?
The section on Terra and the Hegemony is particularly interesting. Especially the bit as to why the people of the Terran Hegemony supported Amaris during the Coup and why the Hegemony flat out failed when the Coup ended.
I always wondered why it took ten years to conquer the Hegemony, well...now I know. :D
As you can see I have. ;)
-
Regarding new equipment:
Is someone of those that purchased the pdf able and willing to enlighten me what a “Dragon’s Breath†Multiple Capital Missile Launch System is exactly?
Is this just a renamed AR-10 launcher?
Or is this something of an improved AR-10 that has the added ability to simultaneously launch several capital missiles at once? E.g. one Killer Whale, one White Shark and one Barracuda?
Thanks in advance.
Hessian
10 peacekeeper nukes/dummies, hidden as a Q ship yard. Ripple fired. First wave is decoys, then then heavy hitters arrive. Highly innacurate.
-
With even tacit supporters of Amaris banned the post liberation government was doomed to failure. The Hegemony could best hunt down these war criminals often competing with vigilantes but the planets of the nation seem to set their own agenda creating a basket case that Kerensky choose to leave. He again takes scorn for this action. I doubt he would press his own claim as First Lord which it seems he would have to do if you read this making it a much worse 1st Succession War. Me I’d go for neutrality as the Republic does in my AU if I were Kerensky and try to mediate the conflict. However he has now risen to such ineptitude that I doubt he or his buddy Victor could figure that out.
This is pretty standard stuff and makes pretty good sense. The final years of the Civil War were a bloody mess - politically, economically, socially, etc. If Kerensky really is upholding his interpretation of Star League law then there is virtually no way he was going to claim the mantle of First Lord.
Also, given is relative lack of political power in the High Council there was also no way for the Accords to be amended to remove the "Cameron as the First Lord" clause. Whoever would have inherited leadership of the Hegemony would have been placed in the position of ruling a battered nation without the benefit or protection of Star League laws or the Star League economy. Both disappeared when Richard II became worm food and Amaris's claim was rejected by Kerensky.
Kerensky was really in a bad spot. He could have remained behind, dismantled the SLDF, (because keeping them as the core of a new Hegemony wasn't going to happen) and became the next Director-General, but then the First Succession probably would have been worse. Again, remaining behind to mediate only works from a position of power and respect. Two things a Director-General Kerensky would not have during the First Succession. He's not Deborah Cameron, nor would he be leading the TH of Deborah's day.
Face it, no matter what, the TH's days were numbered after the Civil War.
Deamarisification swept the Hegemony afterwards with anyone supporting the Usurper barred from service in the new government. The way this is portrayed is odd to me as it again makes the SLDF sound as a bystander – weren’t they the government by force, i.e. military occupation?
As for the vigilantes. That's also fairly standard stuff. Reprisals and summary executions are the norm in recently liberated nations. It's usually the liberator or occupier government (note govt.) who then becomes responsible for stemming civilian violence and restructuring a new government. Use modern day examples in Iraq and Afghanistan to see how the system functions. It's important to remember two things here.
1. The working portions of the TH government were summarily removed from office.
2. The SLDF is an army, not an army with the backing of a civilian government.
Even in Iraq, it's not the US Army that's restructuring the Iraqi government, it's diplomats and civilian functionaries from the US and other UN nations. These are career government employees and politicians who specialize in, well...government. The Hegemony kinda of slits its own throat here. The SLDF is an occupying army or sorts. They can provide food, water and help with physical reconstruction but they haven't the skill sets or the foggiest clue how to run or rebuild a nation. Not too mention that despite being a part of the Star League, the Terran Hegemony is still the Terran Hegemony. It was founded and run by Terrans. The SLDF is not Terran. It's the peacekeeping force of the U.N. Sure there are Terrans in the SLDF, but there is a distinction.
We can also look to modern examples to showcase what happens when an occupying army refuses to work with the locals. Whether they're ex-Iraqi Republican Guard or simple town mayors, sweeping the old regime away can have devastating consequences. Restructuring and rebuilding a national government can sometimes be about making uncomfortable compromises. In James McKenna's case, he was faced with a slightly similar situation like Kerensky. He was an occupying/liberating army without a government. Rather than throw his finger eleven at the people running the old corrupt government and try to go at it alone, he simply restructured what was on paper (avoiding Civil War) and used the preexisting human resources (minus the really bad apples) to rebuild a new one.
The Post-Civil War Hegemony civilian population (and who allowed them to do this?) dumped any and all government personnel. These are capable experts, people with the skill sets necessary to hold an interstellar nation together and they were summarily dismissed. Not only dismissed, but hunted in some cases. Think they went along quietly or stayed in the Hegemony? Talk about a serious brain-drain.
Modern nation building has run into the same problems (and unsurprisingly TPTB draw the connection.)
-
But in the end, you can keep most of this and not effect your AU. Add a Time to Reflect chapter to Threat Assesments. The Terran Republic looks back and what really happened. Your new leaders stepped in early and kept the witch hunt to the top levels of the collaborators, making some fine examples, but giving the lower ranks a chance to mend the damage. The action is not popular and leads to years of animosity and hard calls by the govt, but assures that the core worlds will recover and sets the frame work for the recovery once AK leaves. He cannot see the repair happening fast enough and still dissolusioned leaves anyway. By the end of the 1st War, the lower govt officials, now experinaced, have prooved themselves and repayed thier debt, as they resuce the Terran Republic and keep it as the bastion of strength and technology in the sphere as well as making sure the recovery worked. By repairing all the damage Amaris and AK have done, they are seen as the true heros of the last 50 years. the little guys that counted, always doing ther best for the people, despite thodds of those in power, aided by a massive media campaign.
Been thinking about this today. Instead of Threat Assessments I think Year in Review 2785 might be a better place for such an article. I'd basically like to look back at the election of Amaris and how it happened. Basically the Terrans were fooled by the Usurper and his quisling minions. I'd like to give some specifics of who exactly was arrested and held responsible for this high crime. Basically I'm getting at the Last Cameron's response to the deamarisification crisis and how it may have been different from canon. I.E. perhaps only those with knowledge or actively aided Amaris were held responsible and thanks to her and Sinclair others were sparred. Perhaps a rehabilitation or punishment allowed lesser players to clear their name and return to society. Finally I think Amanda tends to consider this a closed issue and it isn't really talked about - Terrans are concerned with defending their sovereign and maintaining their freedom.
Another issue we might want to expound on is the Chicago Food Crisis and what happened to the businessman on Keid.
P.S. wanted to include my response to Irose in another thread about the election of Amaris for additional information.
Well the way it worked for the Hegemony was a candidate for the Director-Generalship was nominated by the High (Hegemony) Council. The people could either approve or reject this nomination which in this contest they supposedly did by 2/3rds majority. Now I'm not aware of a Director candidate that was ever rejected by the people and I doubt the Council would nominate someone who might fail this final test.
Really I have no problem with the election as the High Council could have easily been manipulated by Amaris over the years he was Richard's closest friend. Richard would have picked these 9 individuals and Amaris could probably install a Councilor of his choice or more accurately one he could manipulate through their greed or other obvious weakness. These Councilors would IMO be the most infamous collobrators during the Coup nominating and backing Amaris for the post.
The people could then have been fooled by withholding the facts of the Coup (the Throne Massacre for example wouldn't have been revealed for one and other extreme actions - nuking the Black Watch a necessary evil - would be minimized). So while the election is disappointing to me I could see it happening and going Amaris however I have a major problem with it being called "fair" (truth was withheld by Amaris and his minions from the public) and the comparison to McKenna's original election is outrageous. However such revisionist history which makes an effort to transform good into evil and evil into not so bad is the disappointing norm today.
-
I agree. Once you go into it, it is not all that bad for the AU. It also has the depth to allow for additional background for the AU and shows how the TH/TR could truly have been rescued. Could be the area for the creation of several important individuals in the AU. The idea of Amanda locking the door at some point on recriminations is also improtant. Much like McKenna did.
-
Well I already have individuals that are politically important whose resume isn't entire;y fleshed out. This can do that nicely. What do you think of the redemption idea? Could a crime be serious enough for individuals to join the army in order to regain their possessions or escape prison time?
-
I would take a look at this the same way Patton did in post war germany - the worst of the Nazis- the SS, the senior command, those responsible for atrocities- they get punished, but as Patton saw it he needed the low to mid-level government officials (who were in all likeliness not members of the Nazi Party) to keep the government up and running since they knew how the system worked. This wasn't popular with a lot of other US officials, but we can go with something like this for SD.
-
Punnishemnt through service. Low to mid level Government oficcials are expected to return 2 or 3 or 5 years service for every 1 they served under the Usuper. That way all are aware of the punnishment and when that person has repaid thier debt. Maybe make it Amadas idea and was the effectve door shutter on further recriminations.
Redemption through Dedicater Service
-
Punnishemnt through service. Low to mid level Government oficcials are expected to return 2 or 3 or 5 years service for every 1 they served under the Usuper. That way all are aware of the punnishment and when that person has repaid thier debt. Maybe make it Amadas idea and was the effectve door shutter on further recriminations.
Redemption through Dedicater Service
The trick is not to punish them.
Keep in mind, the punishment is that their side "lost." They're technically under occupation and being told what to do. In the Terran Hegemony's case, you have to make the distinction between the people working for the government and the nobles. Most of the govt.'s worker, who sided with Amaris (or rather, just continued to work) did so because it was the right thing to do. Heads of State change hands all the time. It's a pretty common occurrence. Maybe not at the Hegemony's Director-General level, but the Hegemony does have a Congress. So even at the highest levels of Hegemony govt., the trappings of democracy make a showing. So, outside of a the top spots which change hands, does the rest of the governmental employees simply jump ship with the changing of the guard? I think not. Otherwise every four-to-eight years in the US we'd have a whole new crop of Postal Workers. Not too mention, a lengthy bit of time when the Postal system would cease to function as new workers were trained to replace the ones lost.
Post-WWII Germany worked the same way. To stave off chaos you have to either build or maintain a semi-balance of order as soon as possible. The more chaotic the transition, the greater the danger the transition will fail. (Communists, Insurgents, Local Powers, encroaching Great Houses, etc.) If the pre-existing govt. "works," simply remove the bad apples to keep the system running while you make subtle changes. Even if the people hate the idea of having "collaborators" working in their govt., an occupier should be smart enough to know that these people are important and that the civilian population, like any group of people, are scared and stupid animals.
The worst thing a restructuring govt. can do is simply dismiss effective workers simply because they worked. Not only does it create a self-imposed "brain drain," but it can create a whole new group of dissidents. Dissidents, who have insight into the inner working of their homeland and their govt. These people know where all the bodies are buried so to speak, so simply dismissing them is like playing with pandora's box.
Again, punishing people for just working to keep their country and their people safe is not the way to engender good will among the natives.
As for the Nobles, most did not support Amaris for altruistic reasons (like service.) Generally speaking, they backed his play for power. So you would treat many of these nobles like high ranking Nazis. However, their cases should be individually reviewed. Yes, this can take years, but the high ranking and visibly prominent collaborating Nobles can be dealt with in short order. (Even today we're still dealing with Nazi War Crimes...) This should stave off the worst of the population's desire for blood (assuming you maintain the pre-existing govt. and make a good show of the trials - civilians will be looking for revenge after all.) without (again) condemning a whole group of highly influential and important people. Many of the Hegemony's nobles were insanely wealthy. Sure you could strip all of them of their wealth and titles, but these people were invested throughout the Inner Sphere. (Thank you Star League economics.) You ship them off or incarcerate them and you'll lose access to their accumulated power. Not too mention add another motivated enemy to the growing list of persons and nations waiting to take your new provisional govt. down.
A light, but firm touch people. That's what's necessary. Canon spells it out for you (b/c TPTB pulled it from historical sources) - follow McKenna.
-
By mere coincidence, I was reading in the train (going to a meeting for work) a book wrote after a symposium on German War Crimes and there was a chapter on the trials between 1944 and 2001 in France and a parallel with other European countries.
To make it short, not two countries did it the same way, depending on their need for revenge, their feeling of having been persecuted...
But most importantly (for our discussion as there were other interesting things in that chapter), the charges were gradually dropped as a reborn German Army was needed to participate in the defence of Europe against communism.
This is why I would agree with Knightmare: make a few (or more) examples with high ranked people (be them Nobles or governmental employees) and those really guilty of crimes and identified.
An amnesty for the others might be a bit too much but you would need some forgiveness act (except for the real criminals) to keep the Terran Republic working: forgiven but not forgotten should be the idea.
And beware of the vigilantes that will try to do justice by themselves.
-
Good thoughts guys but to quote National Treasure "Someone's got to go to prison, Ben". We can accept minor players simply doing their job and we can let everyone off the hook for voting for Amaris as they didn't have all the information but someone has got to be made an example of. Who pays the piper? Do the Houses have some of the Amaris criminals who escaped justice? If so do the Terrans launch SAS raids to capture them especially from House Kurita and Marik? Did the Centuran Accords address the return of these wanted individuals? I figure going after high profile escapees in foreign nations might take the attention off lower collabrators who are in large part forgiven for their past associations.
-
Do the Houses have some of the Amaris criminals who escaped justice? If so do the Terrans launch SAS raids to capture them especially from House Kurita and Marik? Did the Centuran Accords address the return of these wanted individuals? I figure going after high profile escapees in foreign nations might take the attention off lower collaborators who are in large part forgiven for their past associations.
...And antagonize the Great Houses in the process. Yea, that's a good idea. I thought the Republic was trying to avoid conflict? (Insert Sarcasm) ;)
The Republic is already looking like easy pickings after the Civil War, so the last thing you want to do is draw public attention to the following: A.) Covert Raids B.) Embarrassing the Great Houses C.) Showing what the SAS is still capable of...
On a side note, you have to clarify some information, like what constitutes a War Criminal or Collaborator? We know the most blatant examples, like the Greenhaven Gestapo, but what about Nobles or civilians who supported Amaris's regime? You'll have to create a criteria or classifications of collaboration. We're not talking about the most flagrant offenders, like the ones who ordered mass executions or slave work gangs here. Those people, if they're in the hands of the Republic will most certainly be put on trial and punished. So no worries there. What we're talking about here is everyone else.
Now I doubt the House Lords will agree to repatriate individuals deemed as criminals or collaborators by the Republic. Sure, on paper they might agree and they'll make a big public stink about "doing what's right," but if the individual in question is of any value the House Lords will simply feign innocence and deny they're harboring the individual. The US and the USSR did much the same for ex-Nazi scientists. Justice often takes a back seat to usefulness. Especially, when they're foreign criminals...with powerful skills or wealth.
Now the Republic can covertly (if they find out) attempt to repatriate these criminals and bring them to justice, but the Republic runs the aforementioned risks listed in A., B. & C.
Good thoughts guys but to quote National Treasure "Someone's got to go to prison, Ben". We can accept minor players simply doing their job and we can let everyone off the hook for voting for Amaris as they didn't have all the information but someone has got to be made an example of. Who pays the piper?
(Besides what I wrote above) The answer to who pays is easy: The most visibly guilty and who has already been caught. You can witch hunt all you want within the borders of the Republic, but it has to be carefully controlled with very specific criteria and completely run by the convening authority. Otherwise it leaves the hands of the authorities and lands squarely in the lap of the people. That is no bueno.
-
Your right on Knightmare but let us exclude war criminals as military participants and talk about quislings as a political distinction. Willfully committing illegal activities for the Amaris regime would be one. If you shouldn't have done something for the Camerons then you certainly shouldn't have done it for the Usurper. Knowingly covering up the fact that the Camerons were murdered is a biggie that could go under treason. Basically you broke the public trust. What else would constitute a High Collaborator?
As for going after the bad guys it is something the disfunctional Hegemony couldn't do that the Republic can. Pursue the bad guys beyond the border. This might be a good angle on Terran aggression that some Houses can use in their rush to war. These individuals likely related or connected to someone in the Great Houses as many were - again see JHS Terra and several other canon sources. So no the Houses wouldn't want to give them up easily and the Terrans would still want them if important enough. Not sure how useful they would be - some might bring high tech but most would be wealthy individuals with high political connections shielding them from the consequences of their actions.
I just look at such Snatch and Grab Operations as a way to unify the Republic. Also it helps them move on and it gives them another reason to hate the House Lords.
-
If you shouldn't have done something for the Camerons then you certainly shouldn't have done it for the Usurper. Knowingly covering up the fact that the Camerons were murdered is a biggie that could go under treason. Basically you broke the public trust. What else would constitute a High Collaborator?
I think that's too broad. I mean a communications operator who knew the information was false, but still aired the material fearing for his life or someone else shouldn't be considered a collaborator. Besides, how many govt. employees break the "public trust" on behalf of their govt. and simply aren't caught or exposed - doing so on behalf of the legal regime? Governments lie. The Hegemony would most certainly lie to their public if it was in their best interest to do.
Let's be honest and say the truth here.
I just look at such Snatch and Grab Operations as a way to unify the Republic. Also it helps them move on and it gives them another reason to hate the House Lords.
Well, if the Republic government is stupid enough to conduct raids against the Great Houses to help unify the nation or redirect the energies of the people elsewhere then the Republic deserves to be invaded, its soldiers killed and the nation dissolved. I mean, running S&G's for what purpose? To appease the people? If public works, reconstruction and a wave of "real" trials can't do that, then the Republic's leadership should be lynched like the last American President for being downright stupid.
Not sure how useful they would be - some might bring high tech but most would be wealthy individuals with high political connections shielding them from the consequences of their actions.
I don't know about that. Amaris had every Hegemony scientist at his disposal working on new ways to kill SLDF troopers. Whether they were forced to or not, most of these people will be fearing for their lives after the Coup's end. It's probably why so many scientists and their families left with Kerensky. He understood their situation and offered sanctuary. The Exodus was probably a way better alternative to remaining in the ex-Hegemony and wait around for the town mob to execute you and your loved ones.
And it's also just as likely the same number of scientists and their families fled for the Great Houses. I'm sure the House Lords were more than happy to offer sanctuary and amnesty to any and all former Hegemony personnel within their borders. Heck, fleeing to the Great Houses is the second best alternative compared to heading into the great unknown with Kerensky....even with your Republic.
I mean try to remember that the Republic looks and feels like a war zone. It has just suffered terrible fighting and is a complicated mess. Even with the new Republican government and military working day and night to rebuild and repair the nation, its future will remain in doubt for many of its citizens.
Of course we know the Republic will survive, but for the survivors of the Coup the future of the Republic, especially in the short term, will look extremely bleak. Knowing that, if a House recruiter said, "hey I have a nice place for you and your family far away from all of this." Wouldn't you seriously consider it?
Remember, people are scared animals. Even if the Republic's like, "Hey, everything is ok. You're not in trouble." Doesn't mean that translates into actual safety. As the Jews were loaded onto trains, the Nazis told them they were headed for safe relocation, not the ovens. Any person worth the skin on their backside will take anything the Republican government says with a heavy dose of skepticism. Only after time has passed and the Republic makes good on its claims of reconciliation will these scared individuals consider returning home. However, by then they may not be allowed, or be unable to, or even unwilling to return to their homeland.
-
Do the Houses have some of the Amaris criminals who escaped justice?
Possibly, although I doubt they would have very many. They seemed more intrested in Rim mercenaries than Terran quislings.
If so do the Terrans launch SAS raids to capture them especially from House Kurita and Marik?
Sure, great PR oppertunity provided the target is big enough to justify the risk.
Did the Centuran Accords address the return of these wanted individuals?
No, at least not in any decisive way. If the LC,CC,FS have any traitors and dont want to hand them over that is unfortunate but not something to risk derailing the accords over.
I figure going after high profile escapees in foreign nations might take the attention off lower collabrators who are in large part forgiven for their past associations.
The more big fish you catch and gut the less pressure there will be to get the small fish.
-
... are there any intresting technical fallout in JHS Terra that might ripple all the way back to SD?
-
... are there any intresting technical fallout in JHS Terra that might ripple all the way back to SD?
Only just how much more complicated the original SDS system was.
The Republic will be hard pressed to replicate a similar system. Without the monetary resources of the Star League, the full manufacturing capabilities of the old Terran Hegemony, the loss of so many scientists to Kerensky, the other Houses and to the war, and the death of the Nirasaki gents responsible for the original work I doubt it'll ever make a come back.
Still, the Blakists put together a fairly decent system in a short period of time. For the man-power strapped Republic, the partially manned SDS solution created by the Blakists is a real alternative and possible god-send to keep the Republic afloat during those crucial early years.
You figure the Wobbies had about a decade to produce the system (not counting the years spent researching it on Gibson) once they conquered Terra and between eight-to-ten years (from 3069-3076) to start building similar systems on some of their other Protectorate worlds like Roche. Mind you the Wobbies are a super small organization (in terms of manpower) and can really only draw on the awesome manufacturing power of Terra, which is still just a single world. The Republic would be in a far better position (even after the Coup) to reproduce a similar system since their worlds will not have suffered 250+ years of constant conflict beginning with the Succession Wars.
Assuming one of the first orders of business (and governments can have more than one order of business at a time) is to look to the defense of the Republic against possible invasion. Then I would expect that immediately after stabilizing some of the chaos left in the Coup's wake the Republic would probably authorize research into possible reclamation, reconstruction or replication of the Terran Hegemony's existing SDS systems (if any actually survived) and reproduction of alternative systems.
An SDS is the best means of defense for any group of people hemmed in on all sides, (like the Republic) suffering from man power shortages or a finite amount of resources at their disposal (especially human resources.) If I was running the Republic, I'd work the same angle as the Wobbies. Worse case scenario, partially manned and partially finished SDS systems will help slow a House invasion and allow me to concentrate my limited resources to reinforce the weak spots or counter attack. Plus an SDS has the dual benefit of drowning an attacker in their own blood. For morale purposes, the fear of a functioning SDS can not be overstated and can be worked into any type of offensive or defensive strategy.
-
Do the Houses have some of the Amaris criminals who escaped justice?
Possibly, but I do not believe there would be too many escapees. I guess that when the SLDF (re-)conquered the Terran Hegemony they were probably looking for known war criminals trying to escape the Hegemony. So a possible escapee would have to avoid the SLDF and his or her vengeful compatriots to just get off-planet. In space the situation is possibly the same since the SLDF would probably search all civilian small craft, dropships and jumpships to prevent war criminals and other wanted individuals from fleeing the Terran Republic.
If so do the Terrans launch SAS raids to capture them especially from House Kurita and Marik?
Well the Terran Republic is already poised to go to war with two of the five other great houses and sits at the center of the coming storm, so my advise would be: No!
While the Terran Republic will undoubtedly go to war with Houses Kurita and Marik, the Republic does so to liberate its planets from foreign occupation. If the Terran Republic launches said SAS raids it would give its enemies the means to portray the Terran Republic as the evil aggressor.
Regarding the other great houses(Davion, Liao and Steiner), said SAS raids are an even larger no-go. In a situation where you are forced to fight a war on two fronts you do not want to alienate your other neighbors by conducting something like a SAS raid that might very well change that neighbors attitude towards your nation and possibly create a third front(something that in my opinion might occurr with House Liao).
Did the Centuran Accords address the return of these wanted individuals? I figure going after high profile escapees in foreign nations might take the attention off lower collabrators who are in large part forgiven for their past associations.
In my view the Centuran Accords might very well adress the return of wanted individuals.
But if the other great houses will not or cannot(a great house consisting of several hundred inhabited star systems is a huge place to hide in) hand over those wanted, I do not think that launching SAS raids against the other signatories of the Centuran Accords would be very wise for the reasons cited above; additionally you would first have to know where to send your SAS troopers(again the case of a great house consisting of several hundred inhabited star systems is a huge place to hide in). Furthermore those with really high-level connections, e.g. someone with connections to the ruling family of another great house is probably hidden away very deep and very well so that even if you know where to send the SAS team the raid becomes very risky and susceptible to failure.
And yes I believe that the prosecution of high-profile collaborators might take pressure off lower collaborators.
Just my thoughts...
Ciao
Hessian
-
... are there any intresting technical fallout in JHS Terra that might ripple all the way back to SD?
Only just how much more complicated the original SDS system was.
Now this sounds interesting!!!
And if I am not mistaken JHS Terra also contains information regarding the Brian Castles?
Ciao
Hessian
-
... are there any intresting technical fallout in JHS Terra that might ripple all the way back to SD?
Only just how much more complicated the original SDS system was.
Now this sounds interesting!!!
And if I am not mistaken JHS Terra also contains information regarding the Brian Castles?
Ciao
Hessian
Yes, but they were beyond even the Word of Blake's ability to replicate. This tells me something about the effort and skills necessary to build even a single Castle Brian. Something I think the Republic will have most certainly lost for the time being.
-
Possibly, but I do not believe there would be too many escapees. I guess that when the SLDF (re-)conquered the Terran Hegemony they were probably looking for known war criminals trying to escape the Hegemony. So a possible escapee would have to avoid the SLDF and his or her vengeful compatriots to just get off-planet. In space the situation is possibly the same since the SLDF would probably search all civilian small craft, dropships and jumpships to prevent war criminals and other wanted individuals from fleeing the Terran Republic.
Again, I'm not so sure about this. A lot of these "supposed" criminals will have means at their disposal. With the Hegemony's infrastructure and law enforcement in disarray, things like Fake IDs, cosmetic changes and such will have an easier time passing rudimentary inspection or even some intense scrutiny. We also know that the Terran population fled Terra in droves after the liberation, so between pacifying the last pockets of resistance on Terra and elsewhere in the Hegemony and providing humanitarian efforts, the SLDF might be far more hard pressed to control fleeing space traffic AND search every ship. And I hate to say it, but human trafficking is a lucrative vocation, as is smuggling, so don't discount successful efforts along that front.
Try to keep in mind that the worst offenders, those individuals with time, power, money and/or influence will have the best chance to escape the authorities. Consequently these same individuals are probably the same people the authorities are trying their best to apprehend. Mid-level persons of interest, well they'll have a tougher time scrambling the means necessary to "disappear," but they're also lower on the "catch" list, which in the confusion of the liberation will work in their favor. It's hard to check the ID's for a couple hundred thousand refugees streaming from a war zone, let alone every compartment of every Dropship or Jumpship leaving the system.
-
Well the Terran Republic is already poised to go to war with two of the five other great houses and sits at the center of the coming storm, so my advise would be: No!
While the Terran Republic will undoubtedly go to war with Houses Kurita and Marik, the Republic does so to liberate its planets from foreign occupation. If the Terran Republic launches said SAS raids it would give its enemies the means to portray the Terran Republic as the evil aggressor.
Regarding the other great houses(Davion, Liao and Steiner), said SAS raids are an even larger no-go. In a situation where you are forced to fight a war on two fronts you do not want to alienate your other neighbors by conducting something like a SAS raid that might very well change that neighbors attitude towards your nation and possibly create a third front(something that in my opinion might occurr with House Liao).
What about reversing my previous statement about not allowing vigilantes?
Just launching some raids by "vigilantes" (SAS in disguise) on the big names on your list of wanted criminals.
This way the Republic could deny any implication (even more if a vocal political party/association is launched with a simple goal: "Justice for all").
-
Only just how much more complicated the original SDS system was.
So it is more than sticking HNPPCs in old missile silos? Or is it just the space based parts of the SDS that are that impressive?
EDIT:
There are no real manpower shortages even though the TR has only about 2/3 of the population of a SS that is more than enough to fill the ranks of the relatively small militaries of the SW era. There shouldn't even be a mineral shortage if mining tech was better developed than walking around looking for nuggets on the ground... ;D
-
Possibly, but I do not believe there would be too many escapees. I guess that when the SLDF (re-)conquered the Terran Hegemony they were probably looking for known war criminals trying to escape the Hegemony. So a possible escapee would have to avoid the SLDF and his or her vengeful compatriots to just get off-planet. In space the situation is possibly the same since the SLDF would probably search all civilian small craft, dropships and jumpships to prevent war criminals and other wanted individuals from fleeing the Terran Republic.
Try to keep in mind that the worst offenders, those individuals with time, power, money and/or influence will have the best chance to escape the authorities. Consequently these same individuals are probably the same people the authorities are trying their best to apprehend. Mid-level persons of interest, well they'll have a tougher time scrambling the means necessary to "disappear," but they're also lower on the "catch" list, which in the confusion of the liberation will work in their favor. It's hard to check the ID's for a couple hundred thousand refugees streaming from a war zone, let alone every compartment of every Dropship or Jumpship leaving the system.
Hmmm, your points have merit Knightmare(as usual ;)) and I do not reject the possibility of escapees.
Certainly there will be escapees, it is the number of escapees that makes me thinking.
In my view the worst offenders are a numerically smaller group than mid-level persons of interest.
And while the smaller group(the worst offenders) individually have better chances to flee the Terran state, I doubt that all of them are able to make good on their escape.
The other group(mid-level persons of interest) are probably a much larger group, but individually their chances are(at least in my view) not as good, so while a larger number of persons are able to escape, a larger percentage of them is caught.
So a larger percentage of a smaller group can successfully flee the Terran state and a smaller percentage of a larger group. I don't know how many individuals that could be, but I still doubt this amounts to innumerable hordes.
To illustrate this: Given the planetary population data from the Star League sourcebook even a percentage of 0.01% of the Terran population during the Star League fleeing successfully would amount to 1.2 million people per page 178 of the Star League sourcebook(if my math is not totally off).
Hope i could make my point clearer. There are times when it becomes painfully clear to me that English isn't my mother tongue. :(
Ciao
Hessian
-
Hi I am wondering is this only on pdf or will it also come out book form??? If not can someone send me a copy. I would owe you a huge favor. Thanks
-
It's only in PDF now, (came out last week) but it will come out in print soon enough.
-
Only just how much more complicated the original SDS system was.
So it is more than sticking HNPPCs in old missile silos? Or is it just the space based parts of the SDS that are that impressive?
Based on what JHS:Terra says, the ability to build Castle Brians is gone. Kaput. And frankly, I agree. CB's are incredibly intricate, with each example almost one of a kind. Plus, building them when slim resources can be directed elsewhere seems like a bit of a waste.
Now, that being said the original SDS system was incredibly complicated. It was a totally automated system from the M-5 Drones down, all the way to the robotic ports that serviced the vessels. However, it was the control system of the SDS that's irreplaceable. The artificial intelligence of the SDS really was cutting edge. Perhaps, the most advanced piece of equipment ever designed by the Terran Hegemony and one of a kind. Unique as the dead scientists who designed it.
The Word's "low-tech" successor was based around small, human controlled drone systems that were either directed through a local control ship or station. However, the human element was present in heavy doses. People were necessary for everything, but it allowed the "punch" of the SDS (Drone DropShips & Fighters) to be unmanned. Given a little more time, the Word would probably have been able to blanket Terra with an unbreakable system by late 31st century standards.
For the Republic, they have an abundance of WarShips, (more so than the Word at any rate) so they'll have plenty of mobile control and/or carrier vessels (although using manned warships as carriers should be a secondary option.) The Republic should also have plenty of manufacturing capability required to mass produce drone fighters. They own more factory worlds (even damaged) than just Terra. Forget about the drone Dropships or WarShips, which take too long and cost too much. Drone fighters can be built with ground facilities, so you'll be saving yard space for other projects. You don't even need to build space-based facilities or create the Star League's integrated infrastructure. And forget about building hardened static SDS facilities planet-side. Those are luxury facilities. Meaning, you build those when you have the luxury to spend time, money and resources on them. I'm not saying your existing static SDS facilities should be ignored, I'm just saying that for every hardened HNPPC silo built you could have just as easily built a dozen or more drone fighters....each one capable of maneuvering and then attacking or ramming something as valuable as a 'Mech carrier or WarShip.
I'd just build these little ships en-masse on each planet with a couple of drone controllers. Any invasion force closing with the planet will have to face the swarm. This could provide the Republic with an overwhelming aerospace advantage. Coupled with the Republic's mobile reserve, the space assets of the Great Houses will face being pressed against a planet's SDS and Republican WarShips at their rear.
As for manpower. I was referring to the Republican military. In its infancy, the RA is very much a one trick pony. For a couple of years, it can't afford to sustain heavy losses. Many of its soldiers are hardened veterans, but until the university system and reconstruction are complete, any major incursion into the Republic has to be handled carefully. If bled too much, the Republic's already weakened position weakens even further...making additional invasions a more likely proposition.
Again, don't underestimate the fear of the word "SDS," or the benefits even a partial system could impart to help bolster the Republic military and recovery effort.
-
And forget about building hardened static SDS facilities planet-side. Those are luxury facilities.
Appart from patching up the holes blown in the Terran defences I agree, Terra is critical enough to warrant a patch, provided the rest of the ground network was repairable.I'd just build these little ships en-masse on each planet with a couple of drone controllers. Any invasion force closing with the planet will have to face the swarm. This could provide the Republic with an overwhelming aerospace advantage.
Im thinking more along the line of long range missiles. Sure build a nice little drone fighter - but add an internal 5MT shipkiller nuke... Just in case an oppertunity presents itself. Suddenly the KW with the nuke warhead becomes the standard AAS missile!I was referring to the Republican military. In its infancy, the RA is very much a one trick pony.
Perhaps they should mass deploy simple exo-skeletons to the infantry. The tech is quite simple and a 400 kg suit with 2 AP & 3MP would only cost 120.000 CBs and have a 170 kilo pay load and be quite a force multiplier to the infantry - one trooper can take a MG blast that would have gutted an entire platoon.
-
Im thinking more along the line of long range missiles. Sure build a nice little drone fighter - but add an internal 5MT shipkiller nuke... Just in case an oppertunity presents itself. Suddenly the KW with the nuke warhead becomes the standard AAS missile!
I see what you're saying and the Word's use of nuke-equipped capital missiles launched in orbit on a parabolic to destroy an invading Ghost Bear ship would support what you're saying. The problem is two fold. One, a planet covers a lot of square mileage and not a lot of sky in relative relation. You have to time the launch and course just right to take advantage of an incoming WarShip...and that's assuming the ship entered at a standard jump so you can account for transit times and relative vector. The Word's destruction of the Clan ship amounted to a lucky shot, a one in a million kill given the vast distances of space and the targeting equations involved.
Now with a hoard of little fighter drones. You can post those robotic monsters in orbit in a "drift" mode or at speeds relative to a geo-syn orbit and forget about them. Set the drones to silent, so they'll only use passive sensors and they'll only activate and attack when either they're given a signal, someone takes control, or something passes by. Since space is such a "huge" place the likelihood of them being seen before going active is remote. Besides, you only send half into space to play "wait and see." You keep the remainder ground bound. Since drones can travel at Gs that'll kill a human pilot with zero effective loss, they can be launched from anywhere on the planet with minimal notice.
Plus, though your nuke equipped AAS missile is scary nasty, if it misses you're boned. This is before the age of Teleoperated missiles. A drone however, once it expends its weapons or is damaged, can be used to ram a target vessels as a massive solid missile. Remember, most drones have huge engines, (since they can handle the thrust) so a 35 ton drone moving 8Gs is likely to cause as much damage as a Peacekeeper AND have the ability to course correct.
Perhaps they should mass deploy simple exo-skeletons to the infantry. The tech is quite simple and a 400 kg suit with 2 AP & 3MP would only cost 120.000 CBs and have a 170 kilo pay load and be quite a force multiplier to the infantry - one trooper can take a MG blast that would have gutted an entire platoon.
Not a bad idea, but a few orbital bombardments and your fancy exo-skeleton equipped PBIs are melted slag. This is why an SDS (no matter how unsophisticated) wins this thread. [:D]
Scary orbital and aerial assets like an SDS are the ultimate in invasion prevention.
-
I didn't suggest designing special long ranged missiles but rather simply adding an internal nuclear warhead to those "robotic monsters" to take out targets. No need to wait and use ramming only as a last resort, against valuable enough targets it would be the primary attack mode - with an engagement envelope that would be unmatched by any ship mounted weapon. Though nukes are rather expensive so not all drones should be equipped like that.
Making matters even worse for an invader you could build SC drones with long range heat expansion drives. They would charge any inbound force at extreme velocity and dump a few tons of scrap along their vector - dont even need nukes if they have a high enough speed.
I think these simpler drones should be well within the TR's capability to build, appart from the absolute cutting edge there will not be that much that is lostech just yet.
-
I didn't suggest designing special long ranged missiles but rather simply adding an internal nuclear warhead to those "robotic monsters" to take out targets. No need to wait and use ramming only as a last resort, against valuable enough targets it would be the primary attack mode - with an engagement envelope that would be unmatched by any ship mounted weapon. Though nukes are rather expensive so not all drones should be equipped like that.
I wouldn't even go that far. Simply equip the fighter drone with wing mounted Tac Nukes. The ships will then still have the flexibility of a fighter, while also retaining the ability to ram or be deployed in a conventional role.
But the truth is, I'm loathe to equip anything with a nuclear device. Until Bolan explodes and the Succession War becomes a game of tit for tat, there's the possibility of keeping the nuclear genie in his bottle (at least when it concerns the Republic.) If the Republic maintained conventional attacks, albeit with an SDS...which include ramming....then perhaps in the short term (and that may be all that's needed) the nation can avoid nuclear reprisals. You start equipping your CapMissiles and Drones with nukes and all bets are off.
Making matters even worse for an invader you could build SC drones with long range heat expansion drives. They would charge any inbound force at extreme velocity and dump a few tons of scrap along their vector - don't even need nukes if they have a high enough speed.
That's where large drone models, like assault DropShips come into play. The problem with building hoards of them could be yard space. I mean the Republic does have a fairly large and powerful conventional navy. In the short term hoards of drone fighters could provide a very real and very potent "meat shield" with the nasty ability to hit back. This would allow the Republic to make the best of their human navy, while maintaining their yards for continued construction and repair. However, once the Republic either A.) earns a little breathing space, or B.) brings all a good portion of their yards to 100% - building DropShip-sized drones would be the next logical step.
I think these simpler drones should be well within the TR's capability to build, apart from the absolute cutting edge there will not be that much that is lostech just yet.
Well, the Republic would still have to research and develop the control systems just like the Word of Blake, and they may actually have a tougher time doing it after the Civil War. The Word of Blake benefited from over 200+ years of technical organization and refinement. When the Blakists decided to research the project they had neatly prepared technical archives painstakingly collected and preserved on the topic for centuries. The Order didn't just preserve knowledge, they organized it.
In the post-Coup Republic, information databases, libraries, military projects, etc., are in a state of disarray. Scientists and other research assets are spread to the wind. They're either fleeing for their lives, left with Kerensky, dead or just don't exist. Amaris collected an enormous amount of technical material on Terra, which Kerensky then added to before fleeing. I'm sure that pile of research formed the basis of ComStar's technical library in canon and will probably form the foundation of the Republic's, but it's still a mess that needs to be sorted, sifted and maybe even reconstructed (in some cases.)
With dedicated scientists and an organized research database, the Word of Blake was able to develop their SDS II system in roughly a decade (3058-3068/69.) I figure the Republic could do the same in about 12-15 years given the fallout of the Civil War and Kerensky's withdrawal.
However, the Republic has a huge advantage in manufacturing over the Word. Even if we played it conservatively and said that the Republic has a functional manufacturing base of roughly 1/3 that of the Terran Hegemony before the Coup, it's still what? Roughly 3,000% times larger (100 worlds @ 1/3 = 33 - not taking into account how Terra skews the equation) than the Word of Blake's manufacturing base. In ten years the Word of Blake was able to build a fairly large SDS for Terra and a number of smaller systems on a half-dozen or so of their "Maginot Line" worlds. That's not bad for a single factory planet, even if it is Terra.
Whereas, give the Republic ten years to produce and it'll have hoards of Wasps and Voidseekers blanketing their key planets. And that's all you really need to do. Ensure your key manufacturing and breadbasket worlds are secure and it's only a matter of time before you can spread the same system of protection to everything else. With the production source secure you've got nothing but time...
-
I think these simpler drones should be well within the TR's capability to build, appart from the absolute cutting edge there will not be that much that is lostech just yet.
But does the TR have the necessary production capacities? Without compromising all the other essential reconstruction and rearmament projects?
Ciao
Hessian
P.S.: while I was typing Knightmare posted his reply to CJVR's post quoted above ;)
-
Okay guys, great thread and I just wanted to catch up on a few points.
1. Collaborators Abroad. The Republic would likely have tried these traitors in absentia and depending upon the severity of their crimes against Terra authorize special action. This would likely depend on several factors however as the Regent will certainly not act to provide a potential enemy with an excuse for invasion. That being said if any hostile action is taken against her nation the forcible return or execution of said criminals could very well be approved as a proper response. Given the importance of these individuals to the Houses (likely more wealth and family motivated then science but I could see that too) the Centuran Accords likely avoided the issue as a diplomatic olive branch to all sides. Addressing the issue might bring up old wounds. Which leads me to the Republic and Collaborators within. The Last Cameron has to draw a distinction between a High Collaborator/ Quisling and others who were not that involved. Does this mean cooperation with the Usurper past a specific date? What incident is grievous enough for such status to be bestowed? Lesser authorities should be freed to return to work for the nation but could be followed by a certain stigma even though it would be discouraged by the Last Cameron. Amanda’s survival and the fate of her family give her special power to achieve national healing if she should wish to show forgiveness IMO. But who tried these infamous traitors? Was it the Supreme Tribunal or some special conclave? What were these Trails called? And we could tie this in with an Underworlds group as was thinking of known as the Star Chamber.
2. SDS. I think Knightmare is forgetting the time factor as WoB is far removed from the Star League era where the New Republic isn’t. Technical decline while in its first stages hasn’t swept the InnerSphere. Even though the Republic suffered severe damage in areas other resources remain. However, primitive SDS along the lines of what the WoB did is more plausible then the height of the Star League era. Don’t forget the Terran SDS was the most sophisticated known to man. Current attempts to match that what I call 3rd Generation SDS don’t fly. Even those found on outer Hegemony worlds, what I call 2nd Generation, that Kerensky’s ECM knocked out maybe too complex. However I think salvage from Terran space could recover enough to guard a single system – I’ll give you one guess where that would be. Numbers might be reduced but combined with the limited naval assets of the Republic could be enough to stave off invasion. What the Terrans have is more like the Blakist deployed in the Jihad and is likely to be concentrated close to Terra – say within the home province.
3. Nuclear Genie. Sadly Knightmare the cat is already out of the bag here. The Bolan Incident already transpired early in 2785 which begins House to House exchanges. Even more significant is the strategic mindset that VIPs have fallen into already at this time. Maybe it was the Terrorist attack on Demeter during the 3rd Hidden War that first showed the gloves coming off. Throw in tactics seen during the Periphery Uprising which helped gut the SLDF and you see a picture start to develop. However these harsh examples probably serve as useful tools to Terrans seeking methods to halt House aggression by numerically superior forces. Finally you have the Amaris Coup and all its nuclear action which every House Lord and their minions saw and studied. It really isn’t surprising that the militaries of the day which are at peak strength and efficiency are using nukes as a way to achieve some kind of advantage. Unfortunately we have already seen what the consequences of these tactics have in the canon timeline.
4. Brian Construction. Could you guys provide me with some references for your assertions that Castle Brian construction would be impossible. I haven’t read the entire book so giving me a page number and quote would be very helpful. I also find it hard to believe and several BTSD products already refer to new structures being built. The MegaCastles are prime examples. The Republic isn’t as far removed from the Star League as the Word of Blake is. Engineers with the know how and proper industrial equipment would likely be available for these priority constructs although their building may take longer and possibly be less sophisticated in subtle ways.
5. Titan Shipyards. I definitely have to adjust the history of these Jovian docks for BTSD and they may provide a key advantage for a rapid Terran naval recovery.
Well let me know what you think.
-
1. The Last Cameron has to draw a distinction between a High Collaborator/ Quisling and others who were not that involved. Does this mean cooperation with the Usurper past a specific date? What incident is grievous enough for such status to be bestowed? Lesser authorities should be freed to return to work for the nation but could be followed by a certain stigma even though it would be discouraged by the Last Cameron. Amanda’s survival and the fate of her family give her special power to achieve national healing if she should wish to show forgiveness IMO. But who tried these infamous traitors? Was it the Supreme Tribunal or some special conclave? What were these Trails called? And we could tie this in with an Underworlds group as was thinking of known as the Star Chamber.
I would go for Special Conclaves and I would split this period in two: first one (right after the Coup), everyone is tried and more or less found guilty, second one (when the focus of the Government switch to reconstruction), only the big fishes are tried.
4. Brian Construction. Could you guys provide me with some references for your assertions that Castle Brian construction would be impossible. I haven’t read the entire book so giving me a page number and quote would be very helpful. I also find it hard to believe and several BTSD products already refer to new structures being built. The MegaCastles are prime examples. The Republic isn’t as far removed from the Star League as the Word of Blake is. Engineers with the know how and proper industrial equipment would likely be available for these priority constructs although their building may take longer and possibly be less sophisticated in subtle ways.
I agree with you.
-
5. Titan Shipyards. I definitely have to adjust the history of these Jovian docks for BTSD and they may provide a key advantage for a rapid Terran naval recovery.
You could shift a dozen Defenders or so there, the 25 ship figure is very high for a yard hit fairly early in the war.
-
I have a vision of the Battle of Titan that has been evolving for some time but I'm gonna go back and see the exact wording of JHS again. It appears that following the Exodus (2784) the yards could have produced just about anything and done it fairly quickly. In canon it appears that they lied fallow and didn't produce much after Kerensky left till ComStar took over and mothballed them. In BTSD we have the Terran Republic with a small fleet that needs rebuilding quick. I just wonder if I low balled the number of ships the Republic should have. Although they have so much to rebuild from their warships, to their merchant ships, to drop ships, to cargo ships. There is stuff to rebuild that was destroyed by Amaris or left with Kerensky.
-
Okay guys, great thread and I just wanted to catch up on a few points.
1. Collaborators Abroad. The Republic would likely have tried these traitors in absentia and depending upon the severity of their crimes against Terra authorize special action. This would likely depend on several factors however as the Regent will certainly not act to provide a potential enemy with an excuse for invasion. That being said if any hostile action is taken against her nation the forcible return or execution of said criminals could very well be approved as a proper response. Given the importance of these individuals to the Houses (likely more wealth and family motivated then science but I could see that too) the Centuran Accords likely avoided the issue as a diplomatic olive branch to all sides. Addressing the issue might bring up old wounds. Which leads me to the Republic and Collaborators within. The Last Cameron has to draw a distinction between a High Collaborator/ Quisling and others who were not that involved. Does this mean cooperation with the Usurper past a specific date? What incident is grievous enough for such status to be bestowed? Lesser authorities should be freed to return to work for the nation but could be followed by a certain stigma even though it would be discouraged by the Last Cameron. Amanda’s survival and the fate of her family give her special power to achieve national healing if she should wish to show forgiveness IMO. But who tried these infamous traitors? Was it the Supreme Tribunal or some special conclave? What were these Trails called? And we could tie this in with an Underworlds group as was thinking of known as the Star Chamber.
Well let me know what you think.
Hmmm... Interesting questions.
I think I would let the Supreme Tribunal try the High Collaborators as it shows trust in the judicial system whereas a special conclave might be seen as distrusting the judicial system.
For how to call these Trials I'd opt for the simple: Collaborator Trials.
Sadly, as JHS Terra is not yet available in dead tree format I feel that I cannot offer anything on the other points of your post.
Ciao
Hessian
-
It would be interesting seeing the Supreme Tribunal start out as a special conclave created by the Hegemony to try the Quislings. Its Tribunes (?, that good for their individual title and I'm not sure I've created the VIP profiles as of yet) doing such a fine job that the Last Cameron continues to rely on their judicial excellence leading to their ultimate inclusion in the Constitution.
Well Hessian I'm thinking of something a little more specific for the Trail name. Nuremberg was the ideological heart of the Nazi movement and Geneva served in JHS Terra in much the same fashion prosecuting Blakist. So what city on Earth was at the center of Amaris power? Unity City? Seattle? Vancouver? I know the Imperial Palace was in the Canadian wilderness so perhaps a major city like Calgary or Winnipeg?
-
I have a vision of the Battle of Titan that has been evolving for some time but I'm gonna go back and see the exact wording of JHS again. It appears that following the Exodus (2784) the yards could have produced just about anything and done it fairly quickly. In canon it appears that they lied fallow and didn't produce much after Kerensky left till ComStar took over and mothballed them. In BTSD we have the Terran Republic with a small fleet that needs rebuilding quick. I just wonder if I low balled the number of ships the Republic should have. Although they have so much to rebuild from their warships, to their merchant ships, to drop ships, to cargo ships. There is stuff to rebuild that was destroyed by Amaris or left with Kerensky.
The SLDF probably took every ship with an OK KF drive, the remainder would need KF recasting but might be available for local defence. Having the Titan yards available to recast KF-cores would certainly help getting the long list of cripples jump worthy. I doubt it would be worth the effort of more production with the massive repair backlog. Although it depends on the nature of the yards, if Titan is geared towards massproduction then disrupting that with repairs would be counter productive.
-
I have a vision of the Battle of Titan that has been evolving for some time but I'm gonna go back and see the exact wording of JHS again. It appears that following the Exodus (2784) the yards could have produced just about anything and done it fairly quickly. In canon it appears that they lied fallow and didn't produce much after Kerensky left till ComStar took over and mothballed them. In BTSD we have the Terran Republic with a small fleet that needs rebuilding quick. I just wonder if I low balled the number of ships the Republic should have. Although they have so much to rebuild from their warships, to their merchant ships, to drop ships, to cargo ships. There is stuff to rebuild that was destroyed by Amaris or left with Kerensky.
I dont know if this will help, but in The Other Option, after reading JHS: Terra, I have got the Terran system producing more than any one state in total transport production (JS and DS). It accounts for 19% of Sphere wide production, with the next closest being the LC and FWL and 18% and 17% respectivly. Of course this is all 3rd SW levels, so you may have Titan much more productive in your AU. Still, that 1 in 5 seems to work well, without it becoming too big an advantage.
-
The SLDF probably took every ship with an OK KF drive, the remainder would need KF recasting but might be available for local defence. Having the Titan yards available to recast KF-cores would certainly help getting the long list of cripples jump worthy. I doubt it would be worth the effort of more production with the massive repair backlog. Although it depends on the nature of the yards, if Titan is geared towards massproduction then disrupting that with repairs would be counter productive.
Very good CJvR. I figure most salvagable derelicts could be dragged back to the Terran system or are there already as a result of the final Amaris Coup battle. Why bother with the KF recasting. Engines, arms and armor are priority repairs. Ships would be ready defenders.
I dont know if this will help, but in The Other Option, after reading JHS: Terra, I have got the Terran system producing more than any one state in total transport production (JS and DS). It accounts for 19% of Sphere wide production, with the next closest being the LC and FWL and 18% and 17% respectivly. Of course this is all 3rd SW levels, so you may have Titan much more productive in your AU. Still, that 1 in 5 seems to work well, without it becoming too big an advantage.
Right you are Blacknova. Is there any other specific numbers mentioned? I'm looking again myself.
-
So what city on Earth was at the center of Amaris power? Unity City? Seattle? Vancouver? I know the Imperial Palace was in the Canadian wilderness so perhaps a major city like Calgary or Winnipeg?
Apollo.
-
Very good CJvR. I figure most salvagable derelicts could be dragged back to the Terran system or are there already as a result of the final Amaris Coup battle. Why bother with the KF recasting. Engines, arms and armor are priority repairs. Ships would be ready defenders.
I expect most derelicts will be in even worse shape regarding other systems than those with just KF damage. Ships with mild drive damage in the opening of the campaign would have been scavanged to keep the rest of the fleet running rather than risk jumping along. Towards the end I suspect bthe SLDF brought even ships with KF damage along for the final phases of the campaign. That would mean most salvagable derelicts able to make it to Terra would be on the edges of the TR and they would be in a worse state of repair from the SLDF scavanging with regards to guns and engines than ships with heavier KF drive damage closer to Terra.
-
Apollo.
That gives me a great idea Ice. The Mars Trails - The planet that was home to so many influential quislings in the Amaris Empire will serve as the host for their ultimate judgment. Very nice!
I expect most derelicts will be in even worse shape regarding other systems than those with just KF damage. Ships with mild drive damage in the opening of the campaign would have been scavanged to keep the rest of the fleet running rather than risk jumping along. Towards the end I suspect the SLDF brought even ships with KF damage along for the final phases of the campaign. That would mean most salvagable derelicts able to make it to Terra would be on the edges of the TR and they would be in a worse state of repair from the SLDF scavanging with regards to guns and engines than ships with heavier KF drive damage closer to Terra.
A good analysis CJvR! A number of Star League Ships would likely be left in the Periphery as well. I prioritize salvage efforts on the best ships with KF probelms outside Terra in order to get them back to a yard for further refurbishment. The SLDF would have likely begun this process during the post liberation pre Exodus years.
-
Mars Trials 8) with Mars being the God of War.
-
SDS. I think Knightmare is forgetting the time factor as WoB is far removed from the Star League era where the New Republic isn’t. Technical decline while in its first stages hasn’t swept the InnerSphere. Even though the Republic suffered severe damage in areas other resources remain. However, primitive SDS along the lines of what the WoB did is more plausible then the height of the Star League era. Don’t forget the Terran SDS was the most sophisticated known to man. Current attempts to match that what I call 3rd Generation SDS don’t fly. Even those found on outer Hegemony worlds, what I call 2nd Generation, that Kerensky’s ECM knocked out maybe too complex. However I think salvage from Terran space could recover enough to guard a single system – I’ll give you one guess where that would be. Numbers might be reduced but combined with the limited naval assets of the Republic could be enough to stave off invasion. What the Terrans have is more like the Blakist deployed in the Jihad and is likely to be concentrated close to Terra – say within the home province.
I think you've taken the whole line of discussion out of context. We're not talking from the current year you've already written into SD canon/existence (as far as I'm concerned it's a dead point - effectively history.) I was approaching the situation from a "clean" perspective, i.e. if you had not written any material for your Republic.
As in, "If I were writing this from scratch..."
And you should note that technological decline isn't the stumbling block I was talking about. In fact technological decline doesn't even enter into the equation. Neither ComStar nor the Word fall into the "lost technology" category. That title only applies to the Successor Sates. However, the Republic would suffer from the upheaval of the Civil War and Kerensky's Exodus - whereas the Word would not, having over two years to sort and organize all of the technological research inherited from the Terran Hegemony. That is what accounts for a longer R&D time for the Republic. Plus, the Word was really only responsible (initially) for a score of worlds, half of which were hidden. The Republic is hemmed on all sides and immediately under pressure. This "could" be a contributing distraction to take into consideration.
3. Nuclear Genie. Sadly Knightmare the cat is already out of the bag here. The Bolan Incident already transpired early in 2785 which begins House to House exchanges. Even more significant is the strategic mindset that VIPs have fallen into already at this time. Maybe it was the Terrorist attack on Demeter during the 3rd Hidden War that first showed the gloves coming off. Throw in tactics seen during the Periphery Uprising which helped gut the SLDF and you see a picture start to develop. However these harsh examples probably serve as useful tools to Terrans seeking methods to halt House aggression by numerically superior forces. Finally you have the Amaris Coup and all its nuclear action which every House Lord and their minions saw and studied. It really isn’t surprising that the militaries of the day which are at peak strength and efficiency are using nukes as a way to achieve some kind of advantage. Unfortunately we have already seen what the consequences of these tactics have in the canon timeline.
Again context...the Nuke game was also one of tit-for-tat, or "act accordingly." There is the possibility that the Republic would NOT face the same type of fighting occurring along the Lyran/Marik front or Kuritan/Davion front only because A.) For the most part no realm really has a great deal of sustained historical enmity with the Terran Hegemony. B.) The NBC throwing at the start of the 1SW was a responsive tactic. If the Republic didn't engage in it, there's the "possibility" they wouldn't face it. I'm not saying it wouldn't happen, I'm only stressing the idea that it could be somewhat avoidable.
4. Brian Construction. Could you guys provide me with some references for your assertions that Castle Brian construction would be impossible. I haven’t read the entire book so giving me a page number and quote would be very helpful. I also find it hard to believe and several BTSD products already refer to new structures being built. The MegaCastles are prime examples. The Republic isn’t as far removed from the Star League as the Word of Blake is. Engineers with the know how and proper industrial equipment would likely be available for these priority constructs although their building may take longer and possibly be less sophisticated in subtle ways.
The whole section on the Castle Brians allude to the idea that these one of a kind structures were incredibly difficult to build. They were both expensive and time consuming to build and required industries that were damaged or destroyed in the Civil War. The Republic may be able to replicate or build new ones, but from what I've gathered from JHS: Terra I don't think they'd be able to engage in the same kind of construction you've written in the SD sourcebooks as early as you have them doing it. But that's just my personal opinion. Also, the Cat's kinda out of the bag with Castle Brians. Sure they're incredibly difficult to crack, but the know how to do it is now available since the Civil War. Overall, they seem like a waste of resources at this point in the timeline.
-
Sure they're incredibly difficult to crack, but the know how to do it is now available since the Civil War. Overall, they seem like a waste of resources at this point in the timeline.
My personal opinion on fortifications is that none can resist the full attention of an army but they can still be useful.
However in galactical warfare, their role is more limited to being thorns in the feet of anyone who attacks important worlds.
-
Quite correct Ice. What was it that Patton said "fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man". His mobile style of warfare tended to avoid such strong points much as the Germans did to the Maginot Line. However a Castle Brian eventually has to be dealt with if you want to completely pacify a planet. They are difficult to contain given their many exits and given the nature of warfare in BT you have to face your opponent. The populace submits to anyone with a BattleMech seemingly. ::)
-
What was it that Patton said "fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man". His mobile style of warfare tended to avoid such strong points much as the Germans did to the Maginot Line.
It all depends on how you use them.
If you use them to protect more with less and free troops for mobile operations, they are efficient.
Believing they will hold on forever is a dangerous dream (even Vauban knew it).