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Author Topic: Consequences of Klondike  (Read 21596 times)

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Takiro

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Consequences of Klondike
« on: May 31, 2010, 07:43:26 PM »

Hey gang I wanted to start this topic to discuss how the latest Historical Operation Klondike affects our little alternate universe. Sadly I was hoping for more information of the SLDF during the Exodus but there are only tidbits. Perhaps the most obvious effect on BTSD is the equipment contained within.

- Daedalus GTX2 Utility Mech was produced on Terra and was fairly common in the Hegemony
- Sling SL-1G was produced by Mountain Wolf BattleMechs on Vendrell during the Coup in the LC
- Falcon FLC-4NB was produced by Roe Weapon Systems on Apollo in the occupied RWR
- Firefly FFL-3SLE was a mainstay of the SLDF during the 27th century but it doesn't say where in the InnerSphere it was made
- Hoplite HOP-4BB was an old design relegated to Hegemony Militias most were destroyed in the Coup but the rugged and simple design was returned to production during the Exile
- Wolverine II WVR-7H was developed by Kallon Industries in association with SLDF Research Division and during the Amaris Coup Kallon facilities in the FWL, LC, and FS produced it for Kerensky
- Shogun SHG-2H interestingly enough says was produced by Mitchell Vehicles to replace the Stalker prior to the Exodus indicating the company survived the war and rebuilt before the 1st Succession War
- Both the Annihilator and Imp appear to be Exile designs that may have been developed before the Exodus but never produced in the InnerSphere

There is also more information on Royal designs and implications that Level 2 tech was far more widespread then I thought. We should really discuss that.
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lrose

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Re: Consequences of Klondike
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2010, 10:09:49 PM »

- Daedalus GTX2 Utility Mech was produced on Terra and was fairly common in the Hegemony

Not a big deal- we haven't really been dealing with them.

Quote
- Sling SL-1G was produced by Mountain Wolf BattleMechs on Vendrell during the Coup in the LC

That's easy enough to include in threat assessments.

Quote
- Falcon FLC-4NB was produced by Roe Weapon Systems on Apollo in the occupied RWR

We can deal with this in FM:P 2812

Quote
- Firefly FFL-3SLE was a mainstay of the SLDF during the 27th century but it doesn't say where in the InnerSphere it was made

TR3050 puts the firefly as being built on Terra by Coventry/Earthwerks Combine- factory destroyed in 2779.  I would assume the FFL-3SLE was also built there.

Quote
- Hoplite HOP-4BB was an old design relegated to Hegemony Militias most were destroyed in the Coup but the rugged and simple design was returned to production during the Exile

Not a big deal- it is out of production by 2785.

Quote
- Wolverine II WVR-7H was developed by Kallon Industries in association with SLDF Research Division and during the Amaris Coup Kallon facilities in the FWL, LC, and FS produced it for Kerensky

Again we can deal with this in Threat Assessments.  FYI the original mention of the Wolverine II has it in use by 2765 (SLSB p. 81)

Quote
- Shogun SHG-2H interestingly enough says was produced by Mitchell Vehicles to replace the Stalker prior to the Exodus indicating the company survived the war and rebuilt before the 1st Succession War

The Shogun itself is interesting in that there are several variations of the fluff - originally in the Wolf Dragoons SB it dated to just before the fall of the SL- TR3050U dates the design to the reunification war- it also says the Mitchell Graham IV Factory was destroyed in the early part of the 1st SW.  The Kanga entry in TR3050U puts the Kanga line as destroyed 2767.  The line for the Hellcat II aerospace fighter was destroyed in 2775, during Kerensky's campaign to liberate the world. TR3075 has the Galahad produced by Mitchell on Graham IV.  The specs say the factory was destroyed in 2775, but the fluff says production continued until the 1st SW- I will ask the writers on CBT about this. The Helepolis was also produced until 2775.  The Hellcat entry says that Mitchell Vehicles did not survive the SL- implying they were wiped out in 2775. 

I'm inclined to think that Klondike is erroneous in this, but then again new canon trumps old so....

Quote
There is also more information on Royal designs and implications that Level 2 tech was far more widespread then I thought. We should really discuss that.

I've noticed that L2 tech has become more and more common- in some ways it makes sense, in others it's annoying that they have paved over old material in 2750 (although to be fair I would say that TR3058 with all it's munchkin SLDF mechs  really started that problem.)
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Takiro

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Re: Consequences of Klondike
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2010, 10:31:43 PM »

Yeah it becomes critical to our work on Threat Assessments to determine how much or what level of tech the Houses have. I would still think the Republic has a distinct advantage especially because the Hegemony worlds are seized for their weapon caches which further equip House militaries. But it leads to an interesting discussion.

I agree with much of your comments on the Mechs. Regarding the Falcon the Mechworks on Apollo (Displass and Roe) both could have disassembled by Project Phoenix and/or the Lyrans. Neither would want to keep Apollo a center of arms manufacturing and its parts could be used elsewhere.

The Shogun fluff is actually very extensive and goes to great pains to clear up the inaccuracy you point out Irose. It was designed in the final years of the Reunification War as a replacement for the Stalker but budget cuts saw full production discontinued during the Golden Age of Mankind. With the Periphery Uprising and the Amaris Coup it was dusted off production renewed for the SLDF.

This point on the Shogun leads me back to our tech level discussion. Were refit packages withheld due to cost concerns during the Star League era? If you look at newer products many Level 2 weapons were developed for the Reunification War so the Houses must have had some access despite the best efforts of the Hegemony and its Blacklist. We also know that combined arms and the standard military organization of the InnerSphere (lance to regiment) were implemented because of cost. So would lack of combat and penny pinching lead to poor equipping prior to the Succession War?
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Consequences of Klondike
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2010, 04:46:18 PM »

This point on the Shogun leads me back to our tech level discussion. Were refit packages withheld due to cost concerns during the Star League era? If you look at newer products many Level 2 weapons were developed for the Reunification War so the Houses must have had some access despite the best efforts of the Hegemony and its Blacklist. We also know that combined arms and the standard military organization of the InnerSphere (lance to regiment) were implemented because of cost. So would lack of combat and penny pinching lead to poor equipping prior to the Succession War?

What about making the Inner Sphere armies organised like the SLDF?
With advanced tech available only for selected units like Guard ones?
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
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Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Takiro

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Re: Consequences of Klondike
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2010, 11:15:57 PM »

I see no evidence that the houses organized their units in anything larger than a regiment for normal operations. Multi-regimental brigades and divisions may have been used at times but not for extended periods of time where they could develop meta formation skills.

That is what I was thinking originally Ice. Royal Tech units would be unique to the Great Houses limited to rare individuals like a House Lord, High Officer, or other VIP. Then units like the Sword of Light, Davion Guards, Royal Guards, Capellan Hussars, and Marik Guard would be very well equipped. Other units less so. But how common would 3025 level 1 tech be at this time. Would only militias be burden with it? Are double heat sinks common??
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widowcompany

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Re: Consequences of Klondike
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2010, 02:51:01 AM »

Now I added the Annihilator, because I went with the idea that if anyone who was on the project had stayed there was no way in hell they would not build it. With the Terran Republic needing all the fire power it can get we would they pass up such a weapon?
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Takiro

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Re: Consequences of Klondike
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2010, 03:21:02 AM »

Granted it was in development so construction is possible but the Republic fields the Atlas, the Devastator, the King Crab, the Pillager, and the Thunder Hawk. So another 100 ton Mech design isn't that vital or easy to implement during the Succession War. Plus I'd give two more years say 2787 before production could begin as more research would be necessary. So I'm gonna say the Republic doesn't pursue construction of the Annihilator. Also the SLDF might have taken the plans with them in the Exodus and it could be theirs exclusively anyway.
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widowcompany

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Re: Consequences of Klondike
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2010, 04:42:17 AM »

True, I can see all of your reasoning
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Hessian

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Re: Consequences of Klondike
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2010, 12:54:36 PM »

This point on the Shogun leads me back to our tech level discussion. Were refit packages withheld due to cost concerns during the Star League era? If you look at newer products many Level 2 weapons were developed for the Reunification War so the Houses must have had some access despite the best efforts of the Hegemony and its Blacklist. We also know that combined arms and the standard military organization of the InnerSphere (lance to regiment) were implemented because of cost. So would lack of combat and penny pinching lead to poor equipping prior to the Succession War?

Hmmm... I think that despite maintaining their armies during the Star League era, each House Lord knew very well that attacking the SLDF with his army would be .....at least ....dangerous but probably more akin to suicide. So I think its possible that the House Lords out of pure spite maintained their armies but didn't modernize them much causing the House armies to field mostly sub-average equipment(at least compared to the SLDF).
Furthermore why invest loads of money into your own army if the SLDF is obliged to come to your rescue?

(the last 25 years of the Star League's existence could be different, though, but to modernize an entire House army within a few decades would, IMHO, be challenging to say the least. Both financially and technically.)

So yes I can see the House armies being not so well equipped prior to the Succession War.
There might have been some showcase units in each of the House units(say Sword of Light for example) but the bulk of the House armies would field rather outdated equipment.

Just my two € cents

Ciao
Hessian
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Consequences of Klondike
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2010, 01:49:59 PM »

So yes I can see the House armies being not so well equipped prior to the Succession War.
There might have been some showcase units in each of the House units(say Sword of Light for example) but the bulk of the House armies would field rather outdated equipment.

Just my two € cents

I agree (and not because he is speaking in €  ;D)

I see no evidence that the houses organized their units in anything larger than a regiment for normal operations.

My mistake, I only wanted to say following the pattern of the SLDF for the lvl 2 tech.
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Knightmare

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Re: Consequences of Klondike
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2010, 02:25:42 PM »

Hmmm... I think that despite maintaining their armies during the Star League era, each House Lord knew very well that attacking the SLDF with his army would be .....at least ....dangerous but probably more akin to suicide. So I think its possible that the House Lords out of pure spite maintained their armies but didn't modernize them much causing the House armies to field mostly sub-average equipment(at least compared to the SLDF).

Pure spite? Not exactly...  

Furthermore why invest loads of money into your own army if the SLDF is obliged to come to your rescue?

Hidden Wars anyone?

Outside of perhaps the first few decades of the Star League's existence (say until Leonard Kurita died) the Great Houses have always viewed the Star League as a means to an end (especially during its later years.) They've always invested, complained and clambered for advanced weapons technology (basically anything on the HRAD's "No No List") during the League's existence.

Keep in mind that the Great Houses (including the Hegemony) aren't altruistic by a long shot. They're greedy, selfish and xeno-phobic. They hate one another with a self loathing born out of cultural differences and centuries of warfare.

Remember, the Star League represents just a small break from the traditional cycle and only replaces the old open confrontations with new confrontations occurring just below the surface of outright open-warfare for only a century and a half.

(the last 25 years of the Star League's existence could be different, though, but to modernize an entire House army within a few decades would, IMHO, be challenging to say the least. Both financially and technically.)

Not that much of a challenge really. Look at how quickly the Great Houses retooled and produced advanced equipment during and after the Clan Invasion...sure the tech renaissance began in the late 3030s and took two decades (and a war) to fully mature, but keep in mind that before the First Succession War the Houses are at the height of their industrial and scientific power. The construction and implementation of advanced technologies isn't a physical problem...not even a little one.

The only real reason(s) why the Great Houses wouldn't saturate their armies with advanced tech is simple: Fear.

During the Golden Age, the Star League could impose economic sanctions and other forms of monetary punishment (prior to the double up edict) on any House attempting to challenge the SLDF's dominance. Keep in mind I said Star League, not Terran Hegemony. Individually the Great Houses could also make things difficult - spare parts not arriving on time, Terran equipment costing more, etc.

Not to mention the likely arms race that would ensue as a result of any one House attempting such a build up and those corresponding consequences...such as intense economic disruption. Combined, intertwined economies anyone?...

During the Golden Years, fiscal greed outweighed the possible benefits of upsetting the status quo. As long as the Houses could achieve their ends through relatively peaceful means, outright flaunting their military strength or engaging in a military buildup was counter productive. But once faith in the Star League, aka their ability to swindle and gain through political means, waxed...all bets are off.

Still, even until the late 2750s there's still the fear of the SLDF. And with the Terran Hegemony still around and at its economic and scientific peak it would be the likely winner in any arms race. As a result the Houses satisfied their growing disdain and individual need with military growth - as in doubling their personal armies.  
  
So yes I can see the House armies being not so well equipped prior to the Succession War.
There might have been some showcase units in each of the House units(say Sword of Light for example) but the bulk of the House armies would field rather outdated equipment.

I totally agree with this. Showcase units, despite being a part of an army's TO&E are also viewed as points of national pride and sometimes fall outside what observers would call a "normal" military unit. Upgrading your flagship regiments is NOT the same as upgrading your run-of-the-mill line regiment.

Still, there's a problem that hasn't been addressed by TPTB and likely never will. One, that would answer this question definitively.  

We know how easy it is to upgrade and build Star League-era tech and to replenish the ranks thanks to the Clan Invasion. Something like what, 2-3 decades tops?

So how "upgraded" do you think the Great Houses could have become from 2766-2779 and then from 2780-until the First Succession War?

If we apply the same rational used by TPTB for the Clan Invasion, the answer is: quite a bit.

But, even if the Houses only upgraded incrementally during the Amaris Coup (from 2766-2779 since there was no way of knowing the Star League would end) they'd still have the better part of two decades to prep for the First Succession War after it was over.

I mean, as early as 2781-82 the House Lords would have seen the writing on the wall and known that the League was over...and as I mentioned before, they were at the height of their production and scientific means. Plus, we have Terran expatriates defecting from a devastated Hegemony (even the Republic will suffer a "brain-drain.")

So I'm thinking the Houses can upgrade quite a bit. The only thing really slowing them down would be the economic upheaval caused by the Amaris Coup and the subsequent breakdown in relations between the various Great Houses. However, an easy counter would be to point out the previous decades prior to the Coup when the Great Houses were effectively raping the periphery economically and stocking their individual coffers to the brim.

All in all, I'd lean more towards seeing the Great Houses fairly well outfitted with Star League tech by the start of the First Succession War.    
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 02:27:32 PM by Knightmare »
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Hessian

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Re: Consequences of Klondike
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2010, 02:44:55 PM »

Hmmm... I think that despite maintaining their armies during the Star League era, each House Lord knew very well that attacking the SLDF with his army would be .....at least ....dangerous but probably more akin to suicide. So I think its possible that the House Lords out of pure spite maintained their armies but didn't modernize them much causing the House armies to field mostly sub-average equipment(at least compared to the SLDF).

Pure spite? Not exactly...  

Furthermore why invest loads of money into your own army if the SLDF is obliged to come to your rescue?

Hidden Wars anyone?

Outside of perhaps the first few decades of the Star League's existence (say until Leonard Kurita died) the Great Houses have always viewed the Star League as a means to an end (especially during its later years.) They've always invested, complained and clambered for advanced weapons technology (basically anything on the HRAD's "No No List") during the League's existence.

Keep in mind that the Great Houses (including the Hegemony) aren't altruistic by a long shot. They're greedy, selfish and xeno-phobic. They hate one another with a self loathing born out of cultural differences and centuries of warfare.

Remember, the Star League represents just a small break from the traditional cycle and only replaces the old open confrontations with new confrontations occurring just below the surface of outright open-warfare for only a century and a half.

(the last 25 years of the Star League's existence could be different, though, but to modernize an entire House army within a few decades would, IMHO, be challenging to say the least. Both financially and technically.)

Not that much of a challenge really. Look at how quickly the Great Houses retooled and produced advanced equipment during and after the Clan Invasion...sure the tech renaissance began in the late 3030s and took two decades (and a war) to fully mature, but keep in mind that before the First Succession War the Houses are at the height of their industrial and scientific power. The construction and implementation of advanced technologies isn't a physical problem...not even a little one.

The only real reason(s) why the Great Houses wouldn't saturate their armies with advanced tech is simple: Fear.

During the Golden Age, the Star League could impose economic sanctions and other forms of monetary punishment (prior to the double up edict) on any House attempting to challenge the SLDF's dominance. Keep in mind I said Star League, not Terran Hegemony. Individually the Great Houses could also make things difficult - spare parts not arriving on time, Terran equipment costing more, etc.

Not to mention the likely arms race that would ensue as a result of any one House attempting such a build up and those corresponding consequences...such as intense economic disruption. Combined, intertwined economies anyone?...

During the Golden Years, fiscal greed outweighed the possible benefits of upsetting the status quo. As long as the Houses could achieve their ends through relatively peaceful means, outright flaunting their military strength or engaging in a military buildup was counter productive. But once faith in the Star League, aka their ability to swindle and gain through political means, waxed...all bets are off.

Still, even until the late 2750s there's still the fear of the SLDF. And with the Terran Hegemony still around and at its economic and scientific peak it would be the likely winner in any arms race. As a result the Houses satisfied their growing disdain and individual need with military growth - as in doubling their personal armies.  
  
So yes I can see the House armies being not so well equipped prior to the Succession War.
There might have been some showcase units in each of the House units(say Sword of Light for example) but the bulk of the House armies would field rather outdated equipment.

I totally agree with this. Showcase units, despite being a part of an army's TO&E are also viewed as points of national pride and sometimes fall outside what observers would call a "normal" military unit. Upgrading your flagship regiments is NOT the same as upgrading your run-of-the-mill line regiment.

Still, there's a problem that hasn't been addressed by TPTB and likely never will. One, that would answer this question definitively.  

We know how easy it is to upgrade and build Star League-era tech and to replenish the ranks thanks to the Clan Invasion. Something like what, 2-3 decades tops?

So how "upgraded" do you think the Great Houses could have become from 2766-2779 and then from 2780-until the First Succession War?

If we apply the same rational used by TPTB for the Clan Invasion, the answer is: quite a bit.

But, even if the Houses only upgraded incrementally during the Amaris Coup (from 2766-2779 since there was no way of knowing the Star League would end) they'd still have the better part of two decades to prep for the First Succession War after it was over.

I mean, as early as 2781-82 the House Lords would have seen the writing on the wall and known that the League was over...and as I mentioned before, they were at the height of their production and scientific means. Plus, we have Terran expatriates defecting from a devastated Hegemony (even the Republic will suffer a "brain-drain.")

So I'm thinking the Houses can upgrade quite a bit. The only thing really slowing them down would be the economic upheaval caused by the Amaris Coup and the subsequent breakdown in relations between the various Great Houses. However, an easy counter would be to point out the previous decades prior to the Coup when the Great Houses were effectively raping the periphery economically and stocking their individual coffers to the brim.

All in all, I'd lean more towards seeing the Great Houses fairly well outfitted with Star League tech by the start of the First Succession War.    

Hmmm....Quite a lot of food for thought Knightmare. I'll have to think about what your arguments.

Ciao
Hessian
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Knightmare

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Re: Consequences of Klondike
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2010, 02:50:55 PM »

That's what I'm here for.

Sadly, TPTB haven't given much thought to cleaning up or fleshing out those super important transition years from 2766-until the start of the First Succession War. They've given cursory information like, "they built up their armies in preparation for war," but little else.

If we try to extrapolate a picture of the era from the bits we've been given and from what we know from other eras we can try to construct a decent portrait, but the truth is the holes are huge and glaring. (This is also assuming that we take what has occurred in other BT eras at face value and with a certain truth of consistency...something BT developers aren't well known for... ;D)

 
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 02:53:08 PM by Knightmare »
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Re: Consequences of Klondike
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2010, 07:45:08 AM »

If we assume the houses only had level 1 tech before the Amaris coup a few years delay to upgrade facilities and also a lack of factories would have held back a general deployment of SL gear to the house militaries as well as many manufacturers being booked solid with SLDF orders. The TH industries were the main military contractors of the SL era.
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Knightmare

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Re: Consequences of Klondike
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2010, 08:30:26 AM »

If we assume the houses only had level 1 tech before the Amaris coup a few years delay to upgrade facilities and also a lack of factories would have held back a general deployment of SL gear to the house militaries as well as many manufacturers being booked solid with SLDF orders. The TH industries were the main military contractors of the SL era.

A great deal of that assumption rests on the assumption that any Level 2 gear the House militaries were given, was in fact gifted. Meaning House govts. weren't provided technical specs to build replacement parts? That would seem a bit strange to me and, well...unlikely considering the tech dissemination agreements of the Accords and the conniving moves made by the Great Houses after Simon's death. 

As for factories, orders and bookings, once the High Lords amended the Edict of 2650 their military production goes into high gear - a full decade before the start of the Amaris Coup. The Great Houses have quite a bit of time to retool their old facilities and to bring new production online even before the Civil War. I mean, according to the SLSB the drain on the Houses' economies was so bad that in three states unemployment jumped into double digits for the first time in decades. This leads me to believe they spent massive amounts of money and resources on military production and expansion to the exclusion of other primary and support cross-state industries. (Read: Nice Civy Industries that work or provide across member-state borders.)    

But like I said, we were never provided with a definitive answer by TPTB. Conjecture on this subject just spins our poor little noodles in circles.  :D
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 09:35:20 AM by Knightmare »
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