OBT Forum
General BattleTech => Universal News & Reports => Shattered Dawn => Alternate Universe => Inner Sphere => Topic started by: Takiro on May 31, 2010, 07:43:26 PM
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Hey gang I wanted to start this topic to discuss how the latest Historical Operation Klondike affects our little alternate universe. Sadly I was hoping for more information of the SLDF during the Exodus but there are only tidbits. Perhaps the most obvious effect on BTSD is the equipment contained within.
- Daedalus GTX2 Utility Mech was produced on Terra and was fairly common in the Hegemony
- Sling SL-1G was produced by Mountain Wolf BattleMechs on Vendrell during the Coup in the LC
- Falcon FLC-4NB was produced by Roe Weapon Systems on Apollo in the occupied RWR
- Firefly FFL-3SLE was a mainstay of the SLDF during the 27th century but it doesn't say where in the InnerSphere it was made
- Hoplite HOP-4BB was an old design relegated to Hegemony Militias most were destroyed in the Coup but the rugged and simple design was returned to production during the Exile
- Wolverine II WVR-7H was developed by Kallon Industries in association with SLDF Research Division and during the Amaris Coup Kallon facilities in the FWL, LC, and FS produced it for Kerensky
- Shogun SHG-2H interestingly enough says was produced by Mitchell Vehicles to replace the Stalker prior to the Exodus indicating the company survived the war and rebuilt before the 1st Succession War
- Both the Annihilator and Imp appear to be Exile designs that may have been developed before the Exodus but never produced in the InnerSphere
There is also more information on Royal designs and implications that Level 2 tech was far more widespread then I thought. We should really discuss that.
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- Daedalus GTX2 Utility Mech was produced on Terra and was fairly common in the Hegemony
Not a big deal- we haven't really been dealing with them.
- Sling SL-1G was produced by Mountain Wolf BattleMechs on Vendrell during the Coup in the LC
That's easy enough to include in threat assessments.
- Falcon FLC-4NB was produced by Roe Weapon Systems on Apollo in the occupied RWR
We can deal with this in FM:P 2812
- Firefly FFL-3SLE was a mainstay of the SLDF during the 27th century but it doesn't say where in the InnerSphere it was made
TR3050 puts the firefly as being built on Terra by Coventry/Earthwerks Combine- factory destroyed in 2779. I would assume the FFL-3SLE was also built there.
- Hoplite HOP-4BB was an old design relegated to Hegemony Militias most were destroyed in the Coup but the rugged and simple design was returned to production during the Exile
Not a big deal- it is out of production by 2785.
- Wolverine II WVR-7H was developed by Kallon Industries in association with SLDF Research Division and during the Amaris Coup Kallon facilities in the FWL, LC, and FS produced it for Kerensky
Again we can deal with this in Threat Assessments. FYI the original mention of the Wolverine II has it in use by 2765 (SLSB p. 81)
- Shogun SHG-2H interestingly enough says was produced by Mitchell Vehicles to replace the Stalker prior to the Exodus indicating the company survived the war and rebuilt before the 1st Succession War
The Shogun itself is interesting in that there are several variations of the fluff - originally in the Wolf Dragoons SB it dated to just before the fall of the SL- TR3050U dates the design to the reunification war- it also says the Mitchell Graham IV Factory was destroyed in the early part of the 1st SW. The Kanga entry in TR3050U puts the Kanga line as destroyed 2767. The line for the Hellcat II aerospace fighter was destroyed in 2775, during Kerensky's campaign to liberate the world. TR3075 has the Galahad produced by Mitchell on Graham IV. The specs say the factory was destroyed in 2775, but the fluff says production continued until the 1st SW- I will ask the writers on CBT about this. The Helepolis was also produced until 2775. The Hellcat entry says that Mitchell Vehicles did not survive the SL- implying they were wiped out in 2775.
I'm inclined to think that Klondike is erroneous in this, but then again new canon trumps old so....
There is also more information on Royal designs and implications that Level 2 tech was far more widespread then I thought. We should really discuss that.
I've noticed that L2 tech has become more and more common- in some ways it makes sense, in others it's annoying that they have paved over old material in 2750 (although to be fair I would say that TR3058 with all it's munchkin SLDF mechs really started that problem.)
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Yeah it becomes critical to our work on Threat Assessments to determine how much or what level of tech the Houses have. I would still think the Republic has a distinct advantage especially because the Hegemony worlds are seized for their weapon caches which further equip House militaries. But it leads to an interesting discussion.
I agree with much of your comments on the Mechs. Regarding the Falcon the Mechworks on Apollo (Displass and Roe) both could have disassembled by Project Phoenix and/or the Lyrans. Neither would want to keep Apollo a center of arms manufacturing and its parts could be used elsewhere.
The Shogun fluff is actually very extensive and goes to great pains to clear up the inaccuracy you point out Irose. It was designed in the final years of the Reunification War as a replacement for the Stalker but budget cuts saw full production discontinued during the Golden Age of Mankind. With the Periphery Uprising and the Amaris Coup it was dusted off production renewed for the SLDF.
This point on the Shogun leads me back to our tech level discussion. Were refit packages withheld due to cost concerns during the Star League era? If you look at newer products many Level 2 weapons were developed for the Reunification War so the Houses must have had some access despite the best efforts of the Hegemony and its Blacklist. We also know that combined arms and the standard military organization of the InnerSphere (lance to regiment) were implemented because of cost. So would lack of combat and penny pinching lead to poor equipping prior to the Succession War?
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This point on the Shogun leads me back to our tech level discussion. Were refit packages withheld due to cost concerns during the Star League era? If you look at newer products many Level 2 weapons were developed for the Reunification War so the Houses must have had some access despite the best efforts of the Hegemony and its Blacklist. We also know that combined arms and the standard military organization of the InnerSphere (lance to regiment) were implemented because of cost. So would lack of combat and penny pinching lead to poor equipping prior to the Succession War?
What about making the Inner Sphere armies organised like the SLDF?
With advanced tech available only for selected units like Guard ones?
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I see no evidence that the houses organized their units in anything larger than a regiment for normal operations. Multi-regimental brigades and divisions may have been used at times but not for extended periods of time where they could develop meta formation skills.
That is what I was thinking originally Ice. Royal Tech units would be unique to the Great Houses limited to rare individuals like a House Lord, High Officer, or other VIP. Then units like the Sword of Light, Davion Guards, Royal Guards, Capellan Hussars, and Marik Guard would be very well equipped. Other units less so. But how common would 3025 level 1 tech be at this time. Would only militias be burden with it? Are double heat sinks common??
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Now I added the Annihilator, because I went with the idea that if anyone who was on the project had stayed there was no way in hell they would not build it. With the Terran Republic needing all the fire power it can get we would they pass up such a weapon?
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Granted it was in development so construction is possible but the Republic fields the Atlas, the Devastator, the King Crab, the Pillager, and the Thunder Hawk. So another 100 ton Mech design isn't that vital or easy to implement during the Succession War. Plus I'd give two more years say 2787 before production could begin as more research would be necessary. So I'm gonna say the Republic doesn't pursue construction of the Annihilator. Also the SLDF might have taken the plans with them in the Exodus and it could be theirs exclusively anyway.
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True, I can see all of your reasoning
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This point on the Shogun leads me back to our tech level discussion. Were refit packages withheld due to cost concerns during the Star League era? If you look at newer products many Level 2 weapons were developed for the Reunification War so the Houses must have had some access despite the best efforts of the Hegemony and its Blacklist. We also know that combined arms and the standard military organization of the InnerSphere (lance to regiment) were implemented because of cost. So would lack of combat and penny pinching lead to poor equipping prior to the Succession War?
Hmmm... I think that despite maintaining their armies during the Star League era, each House Lord knew very well that attacking the SLDF with his army would be .....at least ....dangerous but probably more akin to suicide. So I think its possible that the House Lords out of pure spite maintained their armies but didn't modernize them much causing the House armies to field mostly sub-average equipment(at least compared to the SLDF).
Furthermore why invest loads of money into your own army if the SLDF is obliged to come to your rescue?
(the last 25 years of the Star League's existence could be different, though, but to modernize an entire House army within a few decades would, IMHO, be challenging to say the least. Both financially and technically.)
So yes I can see the House armies being not so well equipped prior to the Succession War.
There might have been some showcase units in each of the House units(say Sword of Light for example) but the bulk of the House armies would field rather outdated equipment.
Just my two € cents
Ciao
Hessian
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So yes I can see the House armies being not so well equipped prior to the Succession War.
There might have been some showcase units in each of the House units(say Sword of Light for example) but the bulk of the House armies would field rather outdated equipment.
Just my two € cents
I agree (and not because he is speaking in € ;D)
I see no evidence that the houses organized their units in anything larger than a regiment for normal operations.
My mistake, I only wanted to say following the pattern of the SLDF for the lvl 2 tech.
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Hmmm... I think that despite maintaining their armies during the Star League era, each House Lord knew very well that attacking the SLDF with his army would be .....at least ....dangerous but probably more akin to suicide. So I think its possible that the House Lords out of pure spite maintained their armies but didn't modernize them much causing the House armies to field mostly sub-average equipment(at least compared to the SLDF).
Pure spite? Not exactly...
Furthermore why invest loads of money into your own army if the SLDF is obliged to come to your rescue?
Hidden Wars anyone?
Outside of perhaps the first few decades of the Star League's existence (say until Leonard Kurita died) the Great Houses have always viewed the Star League as a means to an end (especially during its later years.) They've always invested, complained and clambered for advanced weapons technology (basically anything on the HRAD's "No No List") during the League's existence.
Keep in mind that the Great Houses (including the Hegemony) aren't altruistic by a long shot. They're greedy, selfish and xeno-phobic. They hate one another with a self loathing born out of cultural differences and centuries of warfare.
Remember, the Star League represents just a small break from the traditional cycle and only replaces the old open confrontations with new confrontations occurring just below the surface of outright open-warfare for only a century and a half.
(the last 25 years of the Star League's existence could be different, though, but to modernize an entire House army within a few decades would, IMHO, be challenging to say the least. Both financially and technically.)
Not that much of a challenge really. Look at how quickly the Great Houses retooled and produced advanced equipment during and after the Clan Invasion...sure the tech renaissance began in the late 3030s and took two decades (and a war) to fully mature, but keep in mind that before the First Succession War the Houses are at the height of their industrial and scientific power. The construction and implementation of advanced technologies isn't a physical problem...not even a little one.
The only real reason(s) why the Great Houses wouldn't saturate their armies with advanced tech is simple: Fear.
During the Golden Age, the Star League could impose economic sanctions and other forms of monetary punishment (prior to the double up edict) on any House attempting to challenge the SLDF's dominance. Keep in mind I said Star League, not Terran Hegemony. Individually the Great Houses could also make things difficult - spare parts not arriving on time, Terran equipment costing more, etc.
Not to mention the likely arms race that would ensue as a result of any one House attempting such a build up and those corresponding consequences...such as intense economic disruption. Combined, intertwined economies anyone?...
During the Golden Years, fiscal greed outweighed the possible benefits of upsetting the status quo. As long as the Houses could achieve their ends through relatively peaceful means, outright flaunting their military strength or engaging in a military buildup was counter productive. But once faith in the Star League, aka their ability to swindle and gain through political means, waxed...all bets are off.
Still, even until the late 2750s there's still the fear of the SLDF. And with the Terran Hegemony still around and at its economic and scientific peak it would be the likely winner in any arms race. As a result the Houses satisfied their growing disdain and individual need with military growth - as in doubling their personal armies.
So yes I can see the House armies being not so well equipped prior to the Succession War.
There might have been some showcase units in each of the House units(say Sword of Light for example) but the bulk of the House armies would field rather outdated equipment.
I totally agree with this. Showcase units, despite being a part of an army's TO&E are also viewed as points of national pride and sometimes fall outside what observers would call a "normal" military unit. Upgrading your flagship regiments is NOT the same as upgrading your run-of-the-mill line regiment.
Still, there's a problem that hasn't been addressed by TPTB and likely never will. One, that would answer this question definitively.
We know how easy it is to upgrade and build Star League-era tech and to replenish the ranks thanks to the Clan Invasion. Something like what, 2-3 decades tops?
So how "upgraded" do you think the Great Houses could have become from 2766-2779 and then from 2780-until the First Succession War?
If we apply the same rational used by TPTB for the Clan Invasion, the answer is: quite a bit.
But, even if the Houses only upgraded incrementally during the Amaris Coup (from 2766-2779 since there was no way of knowing the Star League would end) they'd still have the better part of two decades to prep for the First Succession War after it was over.
I mean, as early as 2781-82 the House Lords would have seen the writing on the wall and known that the League was over...and as I mentioned before, they were at the height of their production and scientific means. Plus, we have Terran expatriates defecting from a devastated Hegemony (even the Republic will suffer a "brain-drain.")
So I'm thinking the Houses can upgrade quite a bit. The only thing really slowing them down would be the economic upheaval caused by the Amaris Coup and the subsequent breakdown in relations between the various Great Houses. However, an easy counter would be to point out the previous decades prior to the Coup when the Great Houses were effectively raping the periphery economically and stocking their individual coffers to the brim.
All in all, I'd lean more towards seeing the Great Houses fairly well outfitted with Star League tech by the start of the First Succession War.
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Hmmm... I think that despite maintaining their armies during the Star League era, each House Lord knew very well that attacking the SLDF with his army would be .....at least ....dangerous but probably more akin to suicide. So I think its possible that the House Lords out of pure spite maintained their armies but didn't modernize them much causing the House armies to field mostly sub-average equipment(at least compared to the SLDF).
Pure spite? Not exactly...
Furthermore why invest loads of money into your own army if the SLDF is obliged to come to your rescue?
Hidden Wars anyone?
Outside of perhaps the first few decades of the Star League's existence (say until Leonard Kurita died) the Great Houses have always viewed the Star League as a means to an end (especially during its later years.) They've always invested, complained and clambered for advanced weapons technology (basically anything on the HRAD's "No No List") during the League's existence.
Keep in mind that the Great Houses (including the Hegemony) aren't altruistic by a long shot. They're greedy, selfish and xeno-phobic. They hate one another with a self loathing born out of cultural differences and centuries of warfare.
Remember, the Star League represents just a small break from the traditional cycle and only replaces the old open confrontations with new confrontations occurring just below the surface of outright open-warfare for only a century and a half.
(the last 25 years of the Star League's existence could be different, though, but to modernize an entire House army within a few decades would, IMHO, be challenging to say the least. Both financially and technically.)
Not that much of a challenge really. Look at how quickly the Great Houses retooled and produced advanced equipment during and after the Clan Invasion...sure the tech renaissance began in the late 3030s and took two decades (and a war) to fully mature, but keep in mind that before the First Succession War the Houses are at the height of their industrial and scientific power. The construction and implementation of advanced technologies isn't a physical problem...not even a little one.
The only real reason(s) why the Great Houses wouldn't saturate their armies with advanced tech is simple: Fear.
During the Golden Age, the Star League could impose economic sanctions and other forms of monetary punishment (prior to the double up edict) on any House attempting to challenge the SLDF's dominance. Keep in mind I said Star League, not Terran Hegemony. Individually the Great Houses could also make things difficult - spare parts not arriving on time, Terran equipment costing more, etc.
Not to mention the likely arms race that would ensue as a result of any one House attempting such a build up and those corresponding consequences...such as intense economic disruption. Combined, intertwined economies anyone?...
During the Golden Years, fiscal greed outweighed the possible benefits of upsetting the status quo. As long as the Houses could achieve their ends through relatively peaceful means, outright flaunting their military strength or engaging in a military buildup was counter productive. But once faith in the Star League, aka their ability to swindle and gain through political means, waxed...all bets are off.
Still, even until the late 2750s there's still the fear of the SLDF. And with the Terran Hegemony still around and at its economic and scientific peak it would be the likely winner in any arms race. As a result the Houses satisfied their growing disdain and individual need with military growth - as in doubling their personal armies.
So yes I can see the House armies being not so well equipped prior to the Succession War.
There might have been some showcase units in each of the House units(say Sword of Light for example) but the bulk of the House armies would field rather outdated equipment.
I totally agree with this. Showcase units, despite being a part of an army's TO&E are also viewed as points of national pride and sometimes fall outside what observers would call a "normal" military unit. Upgrading your flagship regiments is NOT the same as upgrading your run-of-the-mill line regiment.
Still, there's a problem that hasn't been addressed by TPTB and likely never will. One, that would answer this question definitively.
We know how easy it is to upgrade and build Star League-era tech and to replenish the ranks thanks to the Clan Invasion. Something like what, 2-3 decades tops?
So how "upgraded" do you think the Great Houses could have become from 2766-2779 and then from 2780-until the First Succession War?
If we apply the same rational used by TPTB for the Clan Invasion, the answer is: quite a bit.
But, even if the Houses only upgraded incrementally during the Amaris Coup (from 2766-2779 since there was no way of knowing the Star League would end) they'd still have the better part of two decades to prep for the First Succession War after it was over.
I mean, as early as 2781-82 the House Lords would have seen the writing on the wall and known that the League was over...and as I mentioned before, they were at the height of their production and scientific means. Plus, we have Terran expatriates defecting from a devastated Hegemony (even the Republic will suffer a "brain-drain.")
So I'm thinking the Houses can upgrade quite a bit. The only thing really slowing them down would be the economic upheaval caused by the Amaris Coup and the subsequent breakdown in relations between the various Great Houses. However, an easy counter would be to point out the previous decades prior to the Coup when the Great Houses were effectively raping the periphery economically and stocking their individual coffers to the brim.
All in all, I'd lean more towards seeing the Great Houses fairly well outfitted with Star League tech by the start of the First Succession War.
Hmmm....Quite a lot of food for thought Knightmare. I'll have to think about what your arguments.
Ciao
Hessian
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That's what I'm here for.
Sadly, TPTB haven't given much thought to cleaning up or fleshing out those super important transition years from 2766-until the start of the First Succession War. They've given cursory information like, "they built up their armies in preparation for war," but little else.
If we try to extrapolate a picture of the era from the bits we've been given and from what we know from other eras we can try to construct a decent portrait, but the truth is the holes are huge and glaring. (This is also assuming that we take what has occurred in other BT eras at face value and with a certain truth of consistency...something BT developers aren't well known for... ;D)
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If we assume the houses only had level 1 tech before the Amaris coup a few years delay to upgrade facilities and also a lack of factories would have held back a general deployment of SL gear to the house militaries as well as many manufacturers being booked solid with SLDF orders. The TH industries were the main military contractors of the SL era.
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If we assume the houses only had level 1 tech before the Amaris coup a few years delay to upgrade facilities and also a lack of factories would have held back a general deployment of SL gear to the house militaries as well as many manufacturers being booked solid with SLDF orders. The TH industries were the main military contractors of the SL era.
A great deal of that assumption rests on the assumption that any Level 2 gear the House militaries were given, was in fact gifted. Meaning House govts. weren't provided technical specs to build replacement parts? That would seem a bit strange to me and, well...unlikely considering the tech dissemination agreements of the Accords and the conniving moves made by the Great Houses after Simon's death.
As for factories, orders and bookings, once the High Lords amended the Edict of 2650 their military production goes into high gear - a full decade before the start of the Amaris Coup. The Great Houses have quite a bit of time to retool their old facilities and to bring new production online even before the Civil War. I mean, according to the SLSB the drain on the Houses' economies was so bad that in three states unemployment jumped into double digits for the first time in decades. This leads me to believe they spent massive amounts of money and resources on military production and expansion to the exclusion of other primary and support cross-state industries. (Read: Nice Civy Industries that work or provide across member-state borders.)
But like I said, we were never provided with a definitive answer by TPTB. Conjecture on this subject just spins our poor little noodles in circles. :D
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Hmmm... After thinking about Knightmare's excellent post(reply #10) he has more or less convinced me that the Great Houses, motivated by greed and xenophoby, could upgrade their armies(similar to the modernization of the IS armies during and after the Clan Invasion) and that they would strife to do so.
As Knightmare pointed out the question is to which degree such a modernization would occurr.
Full replacement of the hitherto used equipment by newly built and/or designed machines or upgrade packages(e.g. replacing standard ppc's with er ppc's, single heat sinks with double heat sinks etc., like during and after the Clan invasion)?
The way I see it upgrade packages akin to those used during and after the Clan Invasion should be cheaper than newly designed and built machines and therefore should be much more numerous but probably not as effective as the newly designed and built machines
Therefore my approach would be that showcase units replace their equipment to a large degree with newly built/designed machines, brimming with advanced technologies, while average line regiments receive mostly upgrade packages.
So, yes, overall the Great House armies can upgrade quite a bit.
Though this modernization might be done to various degrees regarding each Great House and its formations.
For example the Lyran Royal Guards could receive newly designed and built machines while the Lyran Guards could receive a healthy dose of upgrade packages while the Arcturan Guards could receive moderate upgrades.For another example the Capellan Confederation could have an overall lower ratio of upgrades than the other Great Houses.
But as pointed out by Knightmare we can only try to extrapolate the situation with the limited information we have. Which is conjecture until TPTB provide more detailed information, if they ever do so.
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What about using shifting?
The showcase units with advanced lvl 2 'Mechs receive brand new ones.
They give their 'Mechs to "second" line units (e.g. Lyran Guards) and the "lesser" units receive upgrade packages.
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Another interesting aspect to this discussion is the Expansion of the Edict of 2650 in 2752 which allowed the doubling of the house armies. Having done the research for Threat Assessments the conclusion I came to was that the house armies did not dramatically expand between 2752 and 2786. The Lyran Commonwealth is specially said to have 3 activated 3 mothballed regiments and created 10 new ones in the expansion of the house armies- given that the LCAF has 122 regiments at the start of the 1st SW, the really only grew by a little more then 10%.
So what does this mean- I have no idea, we don't have enough info for a definitive answer- but let's take a look at this as best we can
1) in 2750, the LCAF was most likely following the limits of the Edict of 2650-
2) It appears that the LCAF had at most 109 regiments in 2750 (122 from 2786 less the 13 created after 2750) This number could be less depending on the following- does the 122 include mercs hired after the fall of the SL, does the 13 mech regiments that were added include all new regiments added after 2750. For arguments sake lets says another 13 regiments were added between 2752 and 2786 - so that prior to 2752 the LCAF had 96 regiments-
3) The expansion of the edict of 2650 allowed the house armies to double in size
4) If the LCAF had 96 regiments in 2750, then they could go to 192 regiments in 2752.
5) So why is lCAF in 2786 only 122 regiments, or 70 regiments below the limit (theoretically) allowed during the SLDF?
My theory is that the resources that were available were thrown into upgrade kits, rather then new mechs. If the LCAF was going to add a lot of regiments post 2752, then I suspect the new regiments would either receive new equipment (and be better equipped then older units) or the older units would receive the new gear and the old equipment would be passed on to the new regiments. The only reason you would not have this surplus of equipment is if you were spending your resources on upgrade kits, rather then new mechs.
On the other hand I have a hard time believing advanced tech was that wide spread-from a practical view point (always dangerous in BT I know), If advanced tech was so common, then techs would know how to repair it- and even given the wide spread destruction of the SWs some of that knowledge should have survived to 3025, unless Comstar's Holy Shroud was just that effective....
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On the other hand I have a hard time believing advanced tech was that wide spread-from a practical view point (always dangerous in BT I know), If advanced tech was so common, then techs would know how to repair it- and even given the wide spread destruction of the SWs some of that knowledge should have survived to 3025, unless Comstar's Holy Shroud was just that effective....
It could be a combination of factors - Holy Shroud beings as successful as ComStar claimed, the destruction of infrastructure - including schools, foundries, factories and other support industries, the death of teachers, scientists, technicians (who can repair but not build) and engineers, etc., the list goes on.
I mean given the wide spread disruption caused by the fall of the Star League and then the widespread destruction across all facets of industrialized society caused by the First & Second Succession Wars it's not totally outside the realm of possibility that technology levels dropped as low as they did for as long as they did. Especially if you take into account the raider-like mentality of the 3rd Succession War, when any physical advancement was subject to an immediate and often deadly Objective Raid.
Ex. So you've just finished construction on a that new Endo-Steel research foundry. Boom, someone's wrecked it and carted off the contents quicker than you can say "how many C-Bills for those burny parts?"
I mean, if the BT universe operated anything like ours then none of what I've mentioned would actual happen across so many worlds for so long a time, but seeing how it doesn't then the scenario is quite possible. :D
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Hey guys sorry I haven't been around to join in this great discussion. A lot of great points made by Knightmare, Hessian, and Irose. This morning I typed up for a general post on a few forums. Let me know what you think!
Tech Level of the InnerSphere in 2785?
We are currently debating this issue for BattleTech Shattered Dawn as we develop our latest Fanbook – Threat Assessments 2785. I wanted to get all possible input before we come up with our answer. Now we are talking just after the Exodus and prior to the seizure of Hegemony worlds which undoubtedly enriched Houses armies with its high tech assets. Here are some points I’m thinking about.
Original Assumptions. TRO 2750 painted a Level 1 picture for the main body of armies in 2785 at least to me. Sure there are unique cases of House Lords or Special VIPs fielding highly optimized Level 2 designs but elite units as well? I doubted it. Contigents like the Davion Guards or the Swords of Light would have 3050 refit kits. Older mechs upgraded with “new†tech in the buildup to the Succession Wars. I had envisioned more of a 3039 type environment with certain things like double heat sinks being prevalent but certain weaponry being limited at best. For the bulk of the House Lords military it was good old Level 1 designs right out of TRO3025 but recent canon products have made me question this.
Availability Issue. Tech Manual was the first thing to put a hole in my original premise and made clear that most tech that “debuted†in TRO 2750 was originally produced for the Reunification War (2570-2590s) some one hundred and fifty years earlier. Prototypes like the Gauss Rifle were seen in the field years prior to their formal introduction (2587 in this case for example) Good relations between the Houses are approaching their zenith and the Camerons who absorbed much of their armies to wage the Reunification War seem willing to trade tech freely at this time. No doubt returning veterans from their nations would bring back tales or even examples of high tech equipment. After the start of widespread conflict (the Hidden Wars) in the 2720s (War of Davion Succession and the Marik Civil War) a natural response from the Hegemony to restrict tech would be assumed. Did the initial friendliness of the Star League preclude the Hegemony Blacklist and see a spread of Level 2 tech weapons and equipment to the Great Houses or did they restrict its spread even at this happy time?
Here is a list of Level 2 equipment from Tech Manual and the date of its introduction by the Terran Hegemony: Beagle Active Probe (2576), Anti Missile System (2617), Ferro Fibrous (2571), Artemis IV FCS (2598), LB-X 10 Autocannon (2595), Ultra Autocannon 5 (2640), CASE (2476), Guardian ECM Suite (2597), Gauss Rifle (2590), Double Heat Sinks (2567), EndoSteel (2487), ER Large Laser (2620), Pulse Lasers (2609), Streak SRM 2 (2676), Swarm LRM (2621), Thunder LRM (2621), MASC (2740), Narc Missile Beacon (2587), ER PPC (2760), Snub Nose PPC (experimental), TAG (2600)
Science over Defense. It would seem that the Star League focused on the development of pure science over weaponry especially after the conclusion of the Reunification War. Using the information we have from Tech Manual could we draw the logical conclusion that industry and technical know how of the age surpassed basic weapon design? What I’m getting at is the simplicity of Level 2 tech when compared to other inventions of the day which could have been more complex. Hence development, replacement, repair of these defense technologies wouldn’t be all that difficult for the Houses to implement.
Royal Tech. Appearing in TRO 3075 and again in Historical Operation Klondike seems to point to House Manufacturing of these high tech designs for Kerensky during the Amaris Coup. Alternately I could even see Amaris supplying technical information to his Kurita allies if only to keep them happy. So over the last 18 years the Houses have had a great deal of access to this high tech. However everything isn’t so rosy. Fiscally I could see the Periphery Uprising and the Coup causing great economic turmoil which might restrict a general buildup until the actual disbandment of the High Council in 2781. After that the gloves are likely to come off as each nation would embark on military build ups.
Arms Amendment of 2752. This allowed the Innersphere nations to double their private militaries with House Armies rising from 60-70 Mech regiments to 120-140! Now the Edict of 2650 never prevented the Houses from stockpiling arms, see Davion, so a large degree of older equipment was likely mothballed when the law went into effect only to be activated for use a century later. That is also a hundred years for the nations of the InnerSphere to develop a select supply of reserve equipment. Even this might not cover the massive expansion that the Great Houses have to cover and fast. Cheap and easy to produce level one equipment could be an effective method of fielding massive new contingents as quickly as possible. Given the state of the Star League (Kerensky’s regency, the growing Hidden Wars, and the Periphery buildup) “topping out†at the new limit seems wise.
New Designs. While many Mech designs are fairly ubiquitous in the years running up to the Succession War several new products unique to individual Houses are being fielded.
For example - Dragon (2754), Enforcer (2777), Trebuchet (2780), Jenner (2784), Valkyrie (2787), Hermes II (2798), Centurion (2801). Were these designs produced with Level 2 tech originally?
So what are we talking about here? Do the Houses field a great amount of Level 2 equipment? Do only the very best units field the stuff? Are they similar to the armies of 3039 or 3050? Or do they possess even better weaponry?
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I actually agree with a great deal of what you wrote Tak except for this bit below...
Royal Tech. Appearing in TRO 3075 and again in Historical Operation Klondike seems to point to House Manufacturing of these high tech designs for Kerensky during the Amaris Coup. Alternately I could even see Amaris supplying technical information to his Kurita allies if only to keep them happy. So over the last 18 years the Houses have had a great deal of access to this high tech. However everything isn’t so rosy. Fiscally I could see the Periphery Uprising and the Coup causing great economic turmoil which might restrict a general buildup until the actual disbandment of the High Council in 2781. After that the gloves are likely to come off as each nation would embark on military build ups.
...which this bit kind of contradicts, but also supports this... :D
New Designs. While many Mech designs are fairly ubiquitous in the years running up to the Succession War several new products unique to individual Houses are being fielded.
For example - Dragon (2754), Enforcer (2777), Trebuchet (2780), Jenner (2784), Valkyrie (2787), Hermes II (2798), Centurion (2801). Were these designs produced with Level 2 tech originally?
We can all agree that the Amaris Coup caused a great deal of economic disruption. I mean it was effectively the death knell of the Star League's integrated economic system - thank you Amaris for wrecking the Hegemony. But the jury's still out on how bad the Periphery Uprising effected the League's integrated economy.
I can say with almost absolute certainty that the Uprising caused some sort of fiscal downturn, but to what effect it may have had on a military expansion...no idea.
It's also important to keep in mind that prior to the Uprising, the Great House had been stripping the Periphery with reckless abandonment for years...almost inadvertently prepping for those future "rainy days" and their future military expansion. That's why I wonder exactly HOW bad the Uprising was to the Houses' integrated economies. I mean, the Uprising couldn't have been as bad physically to the Houses' overall economies as it must have been after the Periphery's reconstruction post-Reunification War. You see what I'm getting at here? (Because according to the SLSB - after the RW's Periphery Reconstruction the economies of the SL were at their highest! A decline in work equals a jump in prosperity? I wish that would happen here in RL.) I'm sure tourism definitely disappeared and import/export certainly took a major hit, but the large construction, mining and heavy industry projects were completed decades earlier and/or probably overtaken by local sources.
So you have to wonder exactly how bad the Uprising hurt the bottom line...
However, on a side note and in support of your second quote...
The mid-3050s saw a ridiculous number of new BattleMech designs introduced into the armies of the Great Houses. The list you've provided above showcases less than a dozen new designs, built by only three of the five surviving Houses. So TPTB and their poor writing aside, if we take the information at face value it suggests a couple of possibilities.
1. That the Great Houses were feeling some fiscal stress across areas of their economy's that had a direct effect on their military buildups.
or
2. There are other mitigating factors we're not taking into account.
As for numero uno - I personally don't place much credence or weight to it. Three of the designs you've mentioned above were built by the Federated Suns alone, which is telling enough, but which House is missing from the list and should be there? I'll give you a hint - their flag shows a mailed iron fist of economic dominance!
We know that the LC has always enjoyed the largest and most robust economy of all the Great Houses besides the Terran Hegemony. So what does it say when the LC isn't producing new designs, but nations like the Federated Suns, FWL and Draconis Combine are? I mean we could say that the LC was focused solely on expanding their existing military - but not a single new design, not even one? Come on, that doesn't sound right at all.
That's just one bit to stew on.
As for other mitigating factors, a counter-counter to my last statement could simply be that the Great Houses did not yet want to engage in an all out arms race. This could come about for a number of reasons. I mean for one, the expansion of their armies was really a calculated roll of the dice. It could have backfired or never have happened at all. When Richard II did come to power the Houses could have lost the expansion and then where would the Council Lords be monetarily after sinking all that money into their militaries? Or maybe they didn't go all out because the House Lords really didn't have the same crystal ball we enjoy...they played the military expansion and growth game slow simply because the Lords knew they were playing with fire. Who wants to be the House Lord responsible for bringing down the SLDF on their heads or breaking apart the Star League before it was more or less already dissolved?
Just some things to think about... ;D
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As for numero uno - I personally don't place much credence or weight to it. Three of the designs you've mentioned above were built by the Federated Suns alone, which is telling enough, but which House is missing from the list and should be there? I'll give you a hint - their flag shows a mailed iron fist of economic dominance!
We know that the LC has always enjoyed the largest and most robust economy of all the Great Houses besides the Terran Hegemony. So what does it say when the LC isn't producing new designs, but nations like the Federated Suns, FWL and Draconis Combine are? I mean we could say that the LC was focused solely on expanding their existing military - but not a single new design, not even one? Come on, that doesn't sound right at all.
What about being satisfied with what you have in store?
And being a really close friend of the main R&D source: the Hegemony?
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You are KM, the Periphery Uprising wouldn't cease their military buildup it would cut their primary revenue (taxes on the Periphery) and force them to seek new funding. More of an inconvience but something to worry about. Each would find the money though to continue expansion under the Arms Amendment of 2752. I would think the Coup would be more devastating to their finances but industry and resources are still readily available. However I though of another reason for low tech House militaries.
The ravenous supply needs of the SLDF. Lets face it they are likely buying up every piece of level 2 weapon tech that was produced not only for expansion but for every operation under the sun. I mean after all they are the largest most active military of the time and they'd want the choice gear obviously. Since all the Houses would be bidding against themselves essentially as they are members of that organization they just wouldn't start a price war. So a House military unit could easily find itself on the outside looking in during the League era hence the low tech level.
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2. There are other mitigating factors we're not taking into account.
Could there have been designs that were build close to or after the fall of the Star League (thus not being in any cannon TRO), but whose factories were destroyed prior to the out break of the 3rd SW (thus not making it into TRO 3025)? This might explain why only certain houses have battlemech's that were produced after the fall of the SL but are still in circulation in TRO 3025 (example the Centurion is built on New Avalon, not an easy target to hit). It could also be that a state like the Lyran Commonwealth developed designs that were based on limited level 2 tech but were unable to continue production when the technology declined and there was no suitable way to convert the design to level 1. The manufacturing space would than reallocated to more easily manufactured mech's and the blue prints went the way of three week old left overs.
Just some thoughts.
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2. There are other mitigating factors we're not taking into account.
Could there have been designs that were build close to or after the fall of the Star League (thus not being in any cannon TRO), but whose factories were destroyed prior to the out break of the 3rd SW (thus not making it into TRO 3025)? This might explain why only certain houses have battlemech's that were produced after the fall of the SL but are still in circulation in TRO 3025 (example the Centurion is built on New Avalon, not an easy target to hit). It could also be that a state like the Lyran Commonwealth developed designs that were based on limited level 2 tech but were unable to continue production when the technology declined and there was no suitable way to convert the design to level 1. The manufacturing space would than reallocated to more easily manufactured mech's and the blue prints went the way of three week old left overs.
Just some thoughts.
I like that idea. Gives heaps of room for development of Mechs that fit both the cannon and your universe.
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We can all agree that the Amaris Coup caused a great deal of economic disruption. I mean it was effectively the death knell of the Star League's integrated economic system - thank you Amaris for wrecking the Hegemony. But the jury's still out on how bad the Periphery Uprising effected the League's integrated economy.
I can say with almost absolute certainty that the Uprising caused some sort of fiscal downturn, but to what effect it may have had on a military expansion...no idea.
I would say it had at least some impact on military expansion- many companies (such as Paulina Weapons on New Vandenberg or Mountain Wolf on Alpheratz) opened major factories in the Periphery to take advantage of cheap labor- even if the factories weren't destroyed, the disruption of transportation would effectively result in them providing no materials to the IS houses.
As for numero uno - I personally don't place much credence or weight to it. Three of the designs you've mentioned above were built by the Federated Suns alone, which is telling enough, but which House is missing from the list and should be there? I'll give you a hint - their flag shows a mailed iron fist of economic dominance!
We know that the LC has always enjoyed the largest and most robust economy of all the Great Houses besides the Terran Hegemony. So what does it say when the LC isn't producing new designs, but nations like the Federated Suns, FWL and Draconis Combine are? I mean we could say that the LC was focused solely on expanding their existing military - but not a single new design, not even one? Come on, that doesn't sound right at all.
That's just one bit to stew on.
A little more to stew on- we are missing a design for the LC- the Zeus was introduced 2787. We also have designs like the Sling would probably should be counted. But wait you say the Sling was designed by/for the SLDF...well so was the Valkyrie- which according to the fluff was not an FS design, it was an SLDF design that did not enter service until after the fall of the SL. The Trebuchet also falls in this category, being one of the last mechs designed for the SLDF. And the Enforcer is just a modifed version of an SLDF design( the Enfield). So what this really says is that prior to the 1st SW, the Combine is the only house that is (as far as we know) designing and building new mech designs (and even then the Dragon was originally designed for the SLDF but rejected).
As for other mitigating factors, a counter-counter to my last statement could simply be that the Great Houses did not yet want to engage in an all out arms race. This could come about for a number of reasons. I mean for one, the expansion of their armies was really a calculated roll of the dice. It could have backfired or never have happened at all. When Richard II did come to power the Houses could have lost the expansion and then where would the Council Lords be monetarily after sinking all that money into their militaries? Or maybe they didn't go all out because the House Lords really didn't have the same crystal ball we enjoy...they played the military expansion and growth game slow simply because the Lords knew they were playing with fire. Who wants to be the House Lord responsible for bringing down the SLDF on their heads or breaking apart the Star League before it was more or less already dissolved?
There something to be said in support of this- the House Steiner SBs (both the origanl SB and the new HB) say that the amendment to the edict of 2650 it allowed them to double the size of their armies, not that they actually doubled them. The Steiner SBs specifically say that the LC reactivated 3 mothballed regiments and added 10 new ones in response to the amendment -surely the LCAF had more 13 regiments in 2750. I think this shows that there were limits to how much the IS powers could or choose to spend on their armies. I think it is also evidence that if they did upgrade their regiments with level 2 tech, they used upgrade kits, rather then entire new mechs- otherwise the older mechs could have been used to created additional regiments, why throw out serviceable mechs just because they are not state of the art- if nothing else you would assign them to local militias and the BT equivalent of the US national guard.
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The ravenous supply needs of the SLDF. Lets face it they are likely buying up every piece of level 2 weapon tech that was produced not only for expansion but for every operation under the sun. I mean after all they are the largest most active military of the time and they'd want the choice gear obviously. Since all the Houses would be bidding against themselves essentially as they are members of that organization they just wouldn't start a price war. So a House military unit could easily find itself on the outside looking in during the League era hence the low tech level.
I think this statement is applicable once the Periphery Rebellion erupts, but prior, say from 2752 to 2764 the SLDF is more or less in a state of peace. The SLDF's equipment and logistic requirements wouldn't jump until Kerensky starts preparing to reinforce the pre-existing Periphery garrisons. Even if we shave a year or two off, we still have the better part of a decade where the House Lords are going to upgrade in earnest, without an SLDF hungry for any and all production.
It's also worth mentioning that the SLDF really started leaning on the Great Houses in earnest for logistic and equipment support only after Amaris claimed their logistic/production center (the Hegemony) and years of constant fighting. The SLDF may not have been as dependent on Member-State sources prior to the Coup as you may think they were. After all, the Hegemony was certainly the most stable and altruistic component of the Star League - the nation was after all its chief architect, desiree and most integrated/dependent nation.
I would say it had at least some impact on military expansion- many companies (such as Paulina Weapons on New Vandenberg or Mountain Wolf on Alpheratz) opened major factories in the Periphery to take advantage of cheap labor- even if the factories weren't destroyed, the disruption of transportation would effectively result in them providing no materials to the IS houses.
True, but these were expansion facilities designed to take advantage of these new areas of exploitation. Their original/preexisting facilities would continue to operate "as is" in their original home nations. Sure it's a corporate setback, but how much of a national setback? We're still talking about the richest point in Inner Sphere production and scientific history....
A little more to stew on- we are missing a design for the LC- the Zeus was introduced 2787. We also have designs like the Sling would probably should be counted. But wait you say the Sling was designed by/for the SLDF...well so was the Valkyrie- which according to the fluff was not an FS design, it was an SLDF design that did not enter service until after the fall of the SL. The Trebuchet also falls in this category, being one of the last mechs designed for the SLDF. And the Enforcer is just a modifed version of an SLDF design( the Enfield). So what this really says is that prior to the 1st SW, the Combine is the only house that is (as far as we know) designing and building new mech designs (and even then the Dragon was originally designed for the SLDF but rejected).
Again, weird.
I think it is also evidence that if they did upgrade their regiments with level 2 tech, they used upgrade kits, rather then entire new mechs- otherwise the older mechs could have been used to created additional regiments, why throw out serviceable mechs just because they are not state of the art- if nothing else you would assign them to local militias and the BT equivalent of the US national guard.
If it worked for the Terran Hegemony on a world like New Dallas, why wouldn't it work for the Lyran Commonwealth... :D
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I think this statement is applicable once the Periphery Rebellion erupts, but prior, say from 2752 to 2764 the SLDF is more or less in a state of peace. The SLDF's equipment and logistic requirements wouldn't jump until Kerensky starts preparing to reinforce the pre-existing Periphery garrisons. Even if we shave a year or two off, we still have the better part of a decade where the House Lords are going to upgrade in earnest, without an SLDF hungry for any and all production.
I would go with less in a state of peace- you the ronin and gunslingers fighting in the DC, the Davion War of Succession and Operation Smother, pirate attacks and terrorism in the periphery (which stepped up dramatically after 2752). Even if combat losses are low, a high op-tempo could create a strong demand for replacement parts/equipment.
It's also worth mentioning that the SLDF really started leaning on the Great Houses in earnest for logistic and equipment support only after Amaris claimed their logistic/production center (the Hegemony) and years of constant fighting. The SLDF may not have been as dependent on Member-State sources prior to the Coup as you may think they were. After all, the Hegemony was certainly the most stable and altruistic component of the Star League - the nation was after all its chief architect, desiree and most integrated/dependent nation.
I agree that the source material does make it appear that the SLDF did not depend heavily on the production from the Great Houses. But then again there were numerous SLDF commissioned manufacturing programs that were located the broders of the Great Houses. I would say that the SLDF did get a good portion of it's equipment from factories in the Great Houses.
True, but these were expansion facilities designed to take advantage of these new areas of exploitation. Their original/preexisting facilities would continue to operate "as is" in their original home nations. Sure it's a corporate setback, but how much of a national setback?
I guess that depends on how much the SLDF spread out it's production to reduce shipping/logistical issues- i.e. maybe the Mountain Wolf factory in the OA provided Night Hawk mechs for SLDF regiments in the DC/OA/FC area while the Vendrell plant supplied those in the RWR/LC and FWL. Another thing to consider is the Cyrano entry in TR3050U which implies the Cyrano was developed and built by the New Vandenberg factory and the SLDF became the primary purchaser of the design. That somewhat refutes the idea that the periphery factories were expansion facilities and at the same time indicates that the Cyrano (a level 2 design) was sold to parties other the SLDF....
I think it is also evidence that if they did upgrade their regiments with level 2 tech, they used upgrade kits, rather then entire new mechs- otherwise the older mechs could have been used to created additional regiments, why throw out serviceable mechs just because they are not state of the art- if nothing else you would assign them to local militias and the BT equivalent of the US national guard.
If it worked for the Terran Hegemony on a world like New Dallas, why wouldn't it work for the Lyran Commonwealth... :D
I'm not saying it didn't, just that we have not seen any evidence of this- of course by 3025 these miltias may have been stripped of mechs to replace those lost in front line units.
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The ravenous supply needs of the SLDF. Lets face it they are likely buying up every piece of level 2 weapon tech that was produced not only for expansion but for every operation under the sun. I mean after all they are the largest most active military of the time and they'd want the choice gear obviously.
While the supply needs of the SLDF surely were immense I am not so sure that they would need to buy much material outside the Terran Hegemony. Page 131 of the Star League sourcebook informs us that "the Terran Hegemony was by far the largest manufacturer of weapons in the Star League. It had more than 300 manufacurers of major systems and hundreds of subsidiaries that made parts and lesser weapons."
I thus fail to see the overwhelming need to buy that much material from the member states.
Ciao
Hessian
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I would go with less in a state of peace- you the Ronin and Gunslingers fighting in the DC, the Davion War of Succession and Operation Smother, pirate attacks and terrorism in the periphery (which stepped up dramatically after 2752). Even if combat losses are low, a high op-tempo could create a strong demand for replacement parts/equipment.
I guess it's really a question of what you consider "peace."
From an equipment usage standpoint I'd say none of your aforementioned examples even come close to using or requiring the same level of material compared to the Periphery uprising and later. The First Hidden War took place between individual soldiers already assigned to preexisting units in their normal garrisons. These are individual 'Mechs being used with the same frequency as a Solaris Gladiator. Not exactly high requirements. Whereas the pirate attacks and periphery terrorism wasn't met with the reinforcement of regular SLDF Divisions, with division-level material requirements, but with SAS brigades who were more than likely outfitted solely with conventional gear. Outside of Operation Smother, which again only saw the deployment of half a dozen Division-sized units, the SLDF's material usage was more or less stagnant throughout the period.
I'm not suggesting the SLDF didn't continue to stockpile material, but what concrete evidence existed during the era to suggest a forthcoming Periphery Rebellion and Amaris Coup-type fighting to the people in charge? The fact that the SLDF had to rely heavily on some of the Great Houses to provide equipment and materials during the liberation is telling. It says to me that the SLDF wasn't deploying the Hegemony resource hub and its great stores to suppress the Periphery Rebellion. Sure it was moving in troops to crush the uprising, but it wasn't deploying for a Reunification War-type multi-year conflict. If it were, the SLDF would have been in a far better position materially to reclaim the Hegemony, nor require a lengthy two-year refit period in the conquered Rim Worlds. The truth is that the SLDF would have brought more supplies to forward areas closer to the TC if it were expecting a long, drawn out conflict. Which initially Kerensky clearly did not think was going to occur.
I agree that the source material does make it appear that the SLDF did not depend heavily on the production from the Great Houses. But then again there were numerous SLDF commissioned manufacturing programs that were located within the borders of the Great Houses. I would say that the SLDF did get a good portion of it's equipment from factories in the Great Houses.
I'm not saying it didn't. I fully agree with the assessment that the SLDF used material produced by the Houses. Interstellar Logistics 101 - use locally produced material when possible.
What I'm suggesting is that we differentiate between the type of equipment used and produced, the amounts used and when they were used. I also want to differentiate between "equipment" and the word "material," with "material" standing for replacement parts, ammunition, etc. and "equipment" standing for finished pieces of, well...equipment - like 'Mechs, Tanks, Fighters, and so on.
Meaning, for arguments sake lets say that SLDF units deployed in the Hegemony were outfitted 100% with Hegemony-produced equipment and material regardless of unit type. And make no mistake, they would be. These units were sitting right in the heart of the SLDF's largest producer and stronghold. There would be zero reason to import.
However, I fully expect units deployed in Regions 2 & 3 inside the Houses to have a different equipment/material split depending on the unit type. So where a Royal Division garrisoning a string of planets in the Federated Suns Region 3 will have most of its equipment coming from the Hegemony, a great deal of the division's necessary "material" may in fact be coming from locally produced sources in the Federated Suns. I mean, outside of a Headhunter Missile, I'm fairly certain the SLDF wouldn't mind using FedSuns-produced LRMs, even with their Royal units. Not only does it cut down on the cost, but it simplifies logistics and resupply time. And besides, the FedSuns is a member-state after all, shouldn't it help out the SLDF a little. :D
Now Regular Army units garrisoning the Great Houses may have an entirely different percentage split, since their technology requirements are a little less strict than their Royal brethren. A Regular Army division may receive a fair percentage of its equipment from locally produced sources. Not all mind you, because the Star League economy was still very dependent on the Terran Hegemony being the largest producer in the Inner Sphere, but definitely some.
Which ties into this...
I guess that depends on how much the SLDF spread out it's production to reduce shipping/logistical issues- i.e. maybe the Mountain Wolf factory in the OA provided Night Hawk 'Mechs for SLDF regiments in the DC/OA/FC area while the Vendrell plant supplied those in the RWR/LC and FWL. Another thing to consider is the Cyrano entry in TR3050U which implies the Cyrano was developed and built by the New Vandenberg factory and the SLDF became the primary purchaser of the design.
I think we're talking about the same thing, but I'm not sure.
However, this statement also brings me back to the differentiation bit.
I think for this discussion, timing is super important to take into account. I mean we're dealing with technically three distinct "stages" or periods of time. First we have the SLDF pre-Periphery Uprising. Second we have the SLDF during the Uprising and finally the SLDF during the Coup.
During each stage the SLDF requires and uses differing amounts of equipment and material, as well as receiving most of said goods from different primary sources, with primary being the operative word. So lets take each one in turn. I'll over simplify a little to save space.
Prior to the Uprising, the SLDF is more or less stagnant. Their equipment/material usage and/or requirements (as a whole) is consistent. Their "peace time" logistics are firmly in place and their general deployment follows their peace time garrisons. The SLDF is receiving its materials/equipment from "normal" sources, (that percentage split I was talking about earlier) which are produced and stockpiled at peace time speed and in peace time locations. In my opinion this is the period when the Great Houses are upgrading their militaries in earnest and have the excess materials/equipment production to do so.
However, during the Periphery Uprising the situation changes. This is perhaps the most complicated of the three periods to decipher because as a transitional period it also splits down the center as benefit from the surprising inclusion of 50 'Mech Divisions. Also, the Periphery Uprising is the shortest period at only 1-2 years in length.
During the Periphery Uprising we have a large portion of the SLDF on the move and heading into combat. Equipment/Material usage is on the rise, but initially IMO is nothing to worry about since we're only seeing SLDF units in Regions 2 & 3 moving into the Periphery. And here's the rub. During the first months of the Periphery Uprising, I don't think the SLDF was super hungry for any and all material being produced by the Houses even then.
I mean, prior to the Periphery Divisions hitting the SLDF en-masse it's clear that the SLDF hadn't turned the supply machine to full speed or was committed to another RW-type fight by stockpiling supplies because many of the SLDF units in the Periphery, when cut off, didn't have the supplies to withstand the siege and to wait for relief. (Again, another reason that leads me to believe that the SLDF wasn't buying everything at the time.) I mean, the SLDF was technically fighting separatists armed with slug throwers and conventional vehicles. Kerensky had no way of knowing that 50 'Mech Divisions were just across the horizon. I think his deployment of the SLDF's stores reflects that.
A massive increase in equipment and materials for the SLDF to the point where the House armies can no longer upgrade because they are supplying the SLDF seems a bit excessive this early in the campaign and probably wasn't approached for political reasons as much as physical ones.
On a side note, sadly, I personally think that had the Amaris Coup not occurred the Periphery Rebellion would have turned into a RW-type fight and we would have seen an immediate and sharp decline in House army growth as most of their production would have been turned towards supplying the SLDF. However, the suddenness of the Amaris Coup nips this possibility before it could develop.
However, I also believe the conversion and decline (in the LC, FS & CC since they DID supply the SLDF with materials during the Liberation) occurs nevertheless in some of the Great Houses thanks to the Amaris Coup, but (again) sadly, not across all of the Houses.
The final third period of the Amaris Coup is basically support for my assumptions of the first two. When the Amaris Coup erupts you can extrapolate from the conquest of the Rim Worlds and from what the Houses supplied to the SLDF during the liberation the idea that the SLDF was wholly unprepared for the full extent of the Periphery Uprising. If the SLDF had been prepared for 50 'Mech Divisions or a RW-type conquest of the Periphery it would have been in a far better position to liberate the Hegemony and may have been able to liberate it sooner.
So working backwards, if we take into account how unprepared the SLDF was to liberate the Hegemony you can see the picture forming - the SLDF's equipment/material usage prior to the Amaris Coup should not have significantly impacted the Houses' ability to upgrade or expand their armies.
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The ravenous supply needs of the SLDF. Lets face it they are likely buying up every piece of level 2 weapon tech that was produced not only for expansion but for every operation under the sun. I mean after all they are the largest most active military of the time and they'd want the choice gear obviously.
While the supply needs of the SLDF surely were immense I am not so sure that they would need to buy much material outside the Terran Hegemony. Page 131 of the Star League sourcebook informs us that "the Terran Hegemony was by far the largest manufacturer of weapons in the Star League. It had more than 300 manufacurers of major systems and hundreds of subsidiaries that made parts and lesser weapons."
I thus fail to see the overwhelming need to buy that much material from the member states.
Ciao
Hessian
Quick amendment to my own post above:
At least during the last 1 or 2 decades prior to the Periphery Uprising.
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From an equipment usage standpoint I'd say none of your aforementioned examples even come close to using or requiring the same level of material compared to the Periphery uprising and later. The First Hidden War took place between individual soldiers already assigned to preexisting units in their normal garrisons. These are individual 'Mechs being used with the same frequency as a Solaris Gladiator. Not exactly high requirements. Whereas the pirate attacks and periphery terrorism wasn't met with the reinforcement of regular SLDF Divisions, with division-level material requirements, but with SAS brigades who were more than likely outfitted solely with conventional gear. Outside of Operation Smother, which again only saw the deployment of half a dozen Division-sized units, the SLDF's material usage was more or less stagnant throughout the period.
I'm thinking more of the non-combat aspects- while the SAS was responsible for tracking down the rebels - the regular SLDF units almost certainly increased their patrol efforts, which would increase the wear and tear on their equipment. As this equipment wore out it would have to be replaced.
The truth is that the SLDF would have brought more supplies to forward areas closer to the TC if it were expecting a long, drawn out conflict. Which initially Kerensky clearly did not think was going to occur.
I agree and will address this a little further down.
I agree with you assessment of where the equipment/materials for the SLDF came from.
Prior to the Uprising, the SLDF is more or less stagnant. Their equipment/material usage and/or requirements (as a whole) is consistent. Their "peace time" logistics are firmly in place and their general deployment follows their peace time garrisons. The SLDF is receiving its materials/equipment from "normal" sources, (that percentage split I was talking about earlier) which are produced and stockpiled at peace time speed and in peace time locations. In my opinion this is the period when the Great Houses are upgrading their militaries in earnest and have the excess materials/equipment production to do so.
But at the the same time the SLDF was also undergoing a massive expansion from the 8 or so Corps that fought in the RW (and which probably represented a good portion of the former THAF) to 325 Infantry Divisions, 125 Battlemech Divisions and 304 Independent regiments in 2764. I just don't think all of that material came from the TH- some had to come from the member states.
I mean, prior to the Periphery Divisions hitting the SLDF en-masse it's clear that the SLDF hadn't turned the supply machine to full speed or was committed to another RW-type fight by stockpiling supplies because many of the SLDF units in the Periphery, when cut off, didn't have the supplies to withstand the siege and to wait for relief. (Again, another reason that leads me to believe that the SLDF wasn't buying everything at the time.) I mean, the SLDF was technically fighting separatists armed with slug throwers and conventional vehicles. Kerensky had no way of knowing that 50 'Mech Divisions were just across the horizon. I think his deployment of the SLDF's stores reflects that.
Well it was seperatists armed with slug throwers, conventional vehicles and nukes but I digress...I do agree here that the SLDF got caught unprepared and that supply efforts for the fighting would not ramp up until several months into the campaign.
On a side note, sadly, I personally think that had the Amaris Coup not occurred the Periphery Rebellion would have turned into a RW-type fight and we would have seen an immediate and sharp decline in House army growth as most of their production would have been turned towards supplying the SLDF. However, the suddenness of the Amaris Coup nips this possibility before it could develop.
I have to disagree here- per the SLSB by early 2767 General K had reconquered New Vandenberg (heart of the rebellion) and expect the Concordat to submit soon after (SLSB P. 84-I would point out here that there is no evidence that the Hyades Cluster rebelled against the SL- in fact the evidence is that Nicoletta Calderon kept the Hyades Cluster from rebelling to provide some plausible denialbility for the TC government). I tend to think that had the Coup not occurred the SLDF would have been subdued within another year or two. Yes there would have been some continuing efforts by the rebels, but the major fighting would have ended and the territorial states would have been forcibly reincorporated into the SL.
The final third period of the Amaris Coup is basically support for my assumptions of the first two. When the Amaris Coup erupts you can extrapolate from the conquest of the Rim Worlds and from what the Houses supplied to the SLDF during the liberation the idea that the SLDF was wholly unprepared for the full extent of the Periphery Uprising. If the SLDF had been prepared for 50 'Mech Divisions or a RW-type conquest of the Periphery it would have been in a far better position to liberate the Hegemony and may have been able to liberate it sooner.
I'm not surely I fully agree with this. Was the SLDF unprepared for the Periphery Uprisings and the fighting that followed? Yes. But even if they had been better prepared I'm not sure it would have made that much of a difference. Let's say that rather then getting blindsided by the Periphery Mech Divisions, SLDF Intelligence provided a warning to all SLDF units in the area that there were numerous enemy mech divisions and to expect an attack. That probably would do little to help the units were outright nuked. The other units would probably fair a bit better in the fighting since they would be caught by surprise, but even so there would be heavy fighting between the SLDF and the rebels. The SLDF would still suffer significant losses- not on the scale that they did in canon but it would be substantial. And without the TH manufacturing base they would still be dependent on the Great Houses for supplies- unless they created truly incredible material reserves of food, fuel, ammunition, replacement parts and other consumables - outside of the TH.
So working backwards, if we take into account how unprepared the SLDF was to liberate the Hegemony you can see the picture forming - the SLDF's equipment/material usage prior to the Amaris Coup should not have significantly impacted the Houses' ability to upgrade or expand their armies.
Even if the SLDF had been better prepared for the campaign to liberate Terra, it probably still would have taken several years to complete the liberation- and armies don't typically stockpile enough consumables for that much fighting.
That said I don't think the Great Houses would have been unable to expand/upgrade their forces- I just don't think every regiment would be running around with massive quantities of L2 tech (for example- the Davion Royal Brigade of Guards -yes, the Avalon Hussars, some upgrades, the rest of the AFFS, almost all level 1 tech) and I don't think that just because the 2752 amendment to the edict of 2650 allowed for the doubling of the house armies that they actually managed to double in size- the references in the HSSB and HBHS make seem very unlikely.
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I'm thinking more of the non-combat aspects- while the SAS was responsible for tracking down the rebels - the regular SLDF units almost certainly increased their patrol efforts, which would increase the wear and tear on their equipment. As this equipment wore out it would have to be replaced.
Ok, I think we were dancing around the same answer...
But at the the same time the SLDF was also undergoing a massive expansion from the 8 or so Corps that fought in the RW (and which probably represented a good portion of the former THAF) to 325 Infantry Divisions, 125 Battlemech Divisions and 304 Independent regiments in 2764. I just don't think all of that material came from the TH- some had to come from the member states.
I'm not referring to the SLDF of 2595 or even 2606. I'm referring to the SLDF of 2750 - which has been expanded to its current size for give or take 50 years (if you want to be conservative.) During the initial growth period in the early 27th century I'm sure most of the material came from a diverse number of sources, including the Houses. You don't get huge numbers of Regular Army units without House manufacturing muscle. But by 2750 that linear growth isn't moving upward with the same speed or need at it was almost a century and a half earlier. (Actually, it probably was growing at the same linear rate but not as the same speed - i.e. growth over space within a certain span of time.)
I think we're agreeing again, but maybe I wasn't completely clear?
What I was trying to say (and probably poorly) was that by 2750 I'm certain most of the equipment requirements of the SLDF were supplied by the Terran Hegemony, while the material needs of the SLDF were managed by whatever source was most cost effective, close or allowed (in the case of advanced technologies.)
I have to disagree here- per the SLSB by early 2767 General K had reconquered New Vandenberg (heart of the rebellion) and expect the Concordat to submit soon after (SLSB P. 84-I would point out here that there is no evidence that the Hyades Cluster rebelled against the SL- in fact the evidence is that Nicoletta Calderon kept the Hyades Cluster from rebelling to provide some plausible deniability for the TC government). I tend to think that had the Coup not occurred the SLDF would have been subdued within another year or two. Yes there would have been some continuing efforts by the rebels, but the major fighting would have ended and the territorial states would have been forcibly reincorporated into the SL.
I don't know about that. First, I lump the 50 'Mech Divisions in with the rebellion proper, (which I think you do as well) but I also know that many of the Periphery Uprising's leaders/groups felt duped by Amaris and quit fighting. You have to wonder if the Coup had not occurred, would the SLDF have been fighting in the Periphery for much longer and would the rebellion have spread elsewhere?
I'm not surely I fully agree with this. Was the SLDF unprepared for the Periphery Uprisings and the fighting that followed? Yes. But even if they had been better prepared I'm not sure it would have made that much of a difference. Let's say that rather then getting blindsided by the Periphery Mech Divisions, SLDF Intelligence provided a warning to all SLDF units in the area that there were numerous enemy mech divisions and to expect an attack. That probably would do little to help the units were outright nuked.
There's not much anyone can do against having a nuke dropped on their heads, but that doesn't mean you don't provide adequate supplies for an invasion. But I see what you're getting at.
I still think it's telling, however, as to how the rebellion was viewed by Kerensky. Clearly he didn't see the full scale of the assault prior to the 50 division attack otherwise he would have prepared differently. That's really what I'm getting at. Given how the SLDF entered the Periphery Rebellion indicates that a full-scale House-supply mobilization wasn't in order. This idea is really to quell the notion that the Houses were so busy supplying the SLDF that they didn't have production available to outfit their own militaries.
The other units would probably fair a bit better in the fighting since they would be caught by surprise, but even so there would be heavy fighting between the SLDF and the rebels. The SLDF would still suffer significant losses- not on the scale that they did in canon but it would be substantial. And without the TH manufacturing base they would still be dependent on the Great Houses for supplies- unless they created truly incredible material reserves of food, fuel, ammunition, replacement parts and other consumables - outside of the TH.
Which ultimately happened. The SLDF WAS dependent on House help to reclaim the Hegemony.
Even if the SLDF had been better prepared for the campaign to liberate Terra, it probably still would have taken several years to complete the liberation- and armies don't typically stockpile enough consumables for that much fighting.
True, but it would have made quite a difference. You have to wonder what would have happened during the Amaris Coup if the SLDF had played it safe and determined that the Periphery Uprising was a major event and moved enough operating consumables for 1-2 years to Districts 2 & 3 prior to the Civil War? Would they have been able to outfit more of their non-Royal units with Royal technology? Would the SLDF have had to conquer the RWR and give Amaris a two year span to consolidate his control of the Hegemony? Things to wonder and consider.
That said I don't think the Great Houses would have been unable to expand/upgrade their forces- I just don't think every regiment would be running around with massive quantities of L2 tech (for example- the Davion Royal Brigade of Guards -yes, the Avalon Hussars, some upgrades, the rest of the AFFS, almost all level 1 tech) and I don't think that just because the 2752 amendment to the edict of 2650 allowed for the doubling of the house armies that they actually managed to double in size- the references in the HSSB and HBHS make seem very unlikely.
This is totally my fault... :P I thought you were saying they couldn't upgrade - Period. My apologies. Again, I think we're on the same page, just for different personal reasons.
On a side note, however, I think it's a bit wonky how on one hand we're operating under the premise that the Star League era is the pinnacle of science, production and prosperity and given a decade of complete peace the Great Houses are only showing limited military growth, even with carte blanche to do so. Whereas thanks to what TPTB have written about the late 3050s and 3060s, the Succession War & Clan Invasion-battered Houses are capable of tremendous military growth with none of the long term benefits enjoyed by their Star League era ancestors. It's this contradiction that bothers me...
And like I said, a bit wonky. ;)
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I think we're agreeing again, but maybe I wasn't completely clear?
What I was trying to say (and probably poorly) was that by 2750 I'm certain most of the equipment requirements of the SLDF were supplied by the Terran Hegemony, while the material needs of the SLDF were managed by whatever source was most cost effective, close or allowed (in the case of advanced technologies.)
I agree with you here.
I don't know about that. First, I lump the 50 'Mech Divisions in with the rebellion proper, (which I think you do as well) but I also know that many of the Periphery Uprising's leaders/groups felt duped by Amaris and quit fighting. You have to wonder if the Coup had not occurred, would the SLDF have been fighting in the Periphery for much longer and would the rebellion have spread elsewhere?
Yes I lump the 50 mech divisions into the rebellion, it's really hard to separate the 2. And I agree the leaders of the rebellion felt like they were screwed by Amaris (duped is too tame) and yes when Amaris tried to order the Periphery Mech Divisions to defend the RWR against Kerensky they refused. But there's more to this story then they just felt duped. The mech divisions by and large were recruited from the MOC, TC and OA. They were loyal to those states, not Amaris, and their goal, (whether or not the Coup occured) was to free their home nations. Look at the various periphery books- Most of the TC line regiments were formed from units that fought in the Uprisings- i.e. they are the surviving elements of the Periphery Mech Divisions, the same is true for the Canopian Fusiliers who fought in the Uprisings. And it is likely that the Magistracy Royal Guard, the Avellar Guard and the Alliance Grenadiers were formed from units shattered in the Uprisings. Then add in that the Periphery states have largely been at peace since 2768- so while they suffered some losses I don't think it is reasonable to say the TC 30 regiments in 2770 and is down to 12 in 3025. If anything the TDF has grown since the fall of the SL. So given how few forces were left in the Periphery in 2767 I can't see the fighting going on much longer- the SLDF had such a numerical advantage (much larger then the one they had in the RW) that the periphery states were not going to be able to fight on much longer.
I still think it's telling, however, as to how the rebellion was viewed by Kerensky. Clearly he didn't see the full scale of the assault prior to the 50 division attack otherwise he would have prepared differently. That's really what I'm getting at. Given how the SLDF entered the Periphery Rebellion indicates that a full-scale House-supply mobilization wasn't in order. This idea is really to quell the notion that the Houses were so busy supplying the SLDF that they didn't have production available to outfit their own militaries.
Agreed- Kerensky probably did not plan on a war that would cost him 25% of the SLDF.
True, but it would have made quite a difference. You have to wonder what would have happened during the Amaris Coup if the SLDF had played it safe and determined that the Periphery Uprising was a major event and moved enough operating consumables for 1-2 years to Districts 2 & 3 prior to the Civil War? Would they have been able to outfit more of their non-Royal units with Royal technology? Would the SLDF have had to conquer the RWR and give Amaris a two year span to consolidate his control of the Hegemony? Things to wonder and consider.
Interesting questions- my question is could the SLDF redeploy so many troops and the quantity of supplies at the same time? If they could have, then yes they could have avoided the invasion of the RWR, but that raises the question of how rash would the SLDF soldiers be during the invasion of the TH- in theory the RWR campaign let them expend their initial rage, so that when the invaded the TH, which was better defended they would not act rashly.
This is totally my fault... :P I thought you were saying they couldn't upgrade - Period. My apologies. Again, I think we're on the same page, just for different personal reasons.
Sorry I may not have been totally clear- I definitely think they had some upgrades- most L2 tech is old and by law had to have passed to the Great Houses- I just don't think every mech was brimming with L2 tech.
On a side note, however, I think it's a bit wonky how on one hand we're operating under the premise that the Star League era is the pinnacle of science, production and prosperity and given a decade of complete peace the Great Houses are only showing limited military growth, even with carte blanche to do so. Whereas thanks to what TPTB have written about the late 3050s and 3060s, the Succession War & Clan Invasion-battered Houses are capable of tremendous military growth with none of the long term benefits enjoyed by their Star League era ancestors. It's this contradiction that bothers me...
I blame this on TR3058 and the era of battletech munckinism as I call it. I started playing BT right before the clans - 1988/89 so I saw the new tech as it was introduced. When TR2750 came out it was a neat book with advanced weapons but the most interesting part was that no mech or Vehicle had more the 3 new tech items. When TR3050 came out the designs used a lot of new tech, but for the most part they were upgrades of existing production lines, there were very few new lines. Then you get to TR3055 and TR3058, 2 books that I will argue are really bad for the BT universe. One problem is that both books introduce a lot of new manufacturers- not just Defiance added a new production line, but entirely new factories just popping up over night. Even worse a number of these factories were described as former SL era ones that were abandoned or destroyed, but 300 years later can easily be reactivated- if they could be rebuilt that easily why didn't the Successor States do that during the 3rd SW when they were desperate for mech production? I've never understood this. (as a side note it bothers me in current products when the say factory xyz shut down during the later years of the SWs because their products were unpopular- if you are in an era when any equipment is scarce are you really going to shut down a working factory? One example of this is the Ironsides aerospace fighter.)
The other problem was TR3058- one of the worst TRs in BT as so many of the designs are optimized designs with no flaws. Many of the designs in there were SL era designs that were far more powerful then the ones in TR2750. So suddenly TR2750 looks silly and results in the recent efforts to explain that what we thought were advanced SLDF designs, weren't. But that's a separate issue from what we are discussing.
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Yes I lump the 50 mech divisions into the rebellion, it's really hard to separate the 2. And I agree the leaders of the rebellion felt like they were screwed by Amaris (duped is too tame) and yes when Amaris tried to order the Periphery Mech Divisions to defend the RWR against Kerensky they refused. But there's more to this story then they just felt duped. The mech divisions by and large were recruited from the MOC, TC and OA. They were loyal to those states, not Amaris, and their goal, (whether or not the Coup occured) was to free their home nations. Look at the various periphery books- Most of the TC line regiments were formed from units that fought in the Uprisings- i.e. they are the surviving elements of the Periphery Mech Divisions, the same is true for the Canopian Fusiliers who fought in the Uprisings. And it is likely that the Magistracy Royal Guard, the Avellar Guard and the Alliance Grenadiers were formed from units shattered in the Uprisings. Then add in that the Periphery states have largely been at peace since 2768- so while they suffered some losses I don't think it is reasonable to say the TC 30 regiments in 2770 and is down to 12 in 3025. If anything the TDF has grown since the fall of the SL. So given how few forces were left in the Periphery in 2767 I can't see the fighting going on much longer- the SLDF had such a numerical advantage (much larger then the one they had in the RW) that the periphery states were not going to be able to fight on much longer.
I don't necessarily agree that numerical superiority dictates the length or tenure of a Civil War. I mean the Star League forces enjoyed only a decent numerical and technological advantage over their Periphery opponents during the Reunification War and it lasted over a decade. The will to fight can not always be measured in simple numerical terms. Fictionally, the Taurians are living proof. They effectively reinvented and popularized the human-wave attack.
The point I was trying to make and I think you inadvertently expand on, is that the Periphery Uprising forces were pan-Periphery units drawn from every Periphery state. Assuming they weren't screwed by Amaris there's no reason to think these Periphery divisions wouldn't fight on longer; bleeding the SLDF more and possibly gaining actual concessions from the Star League government. I mean, given the success of their initial attack it's not difficult to imagine the other leaders of the Periphery Uprising being a little less likely to bargain with Kerensky had Amaris not launched his Coup and as you pointed out, in 1-2 years of fighting the Uprising cost the SLDF close to 25% of its operational strength. That's a fair bit of success by anyone's measure.
Interesting questions- my question is could the SLDF redeploy so many troops and the quantity of supplies at the same time? .
Honestly, I'm sure the SLDF could have moved the supplies. If any of those massive and costly war games show, is that in a pinch the SLDF can move stuff around. I'm sure if Kerensky believed that the Periphery Uprising would include 50 'Mech Divisions or any significant 'Mech forces for that matter he would have ordered the movement of additional materials out of the Hegemony. His sudden order to withdraw from the Periphery when these 'Mech Divisions appear reinforces the notion that not only was the SLDF caught completely off guard, but it was physically caught unprepared as well.
If they could have, then yes they could have avoided the invasion of the RWR, but that raises the question of how rash would the SLDF soldiers be during the invasion of the TH- in theory the RWR campaign let them expend their initial rage, so that when the invaded the TH, which was better defended they would not act rashly
This is a good question. I guess it would depend on how tightly and how integrated the Republican forces were after the initial takeover of the Hegemony. If the SLDF was physically capable of immediately attacking the new Amaris Empire they'd still face most of the remaining SDSes but they'd also be facing Republican-held worlds that didn't benefit from two years of fortification (re)building or renewed arms production, or populations starved half to death. Rim Worlds forces also wouldn't have the time to upgrade all of their units with Hegemony technology and if they did, wouldn't be very familiar with their use. Nor would Amaris enjoy the time to leisurely strip the Terran Hegemony of its grandeur.
However, it brings to light another questions/problem. If Amaris wasn't afforded the time to strip the Hegemony and was immediately placed on the defensively would he have destroyed more of the Hegemony outright rather than try to hoard it?
I blame this on TR3058 and the era of battletech munckinism as I call it. I started playing BT right before the clans - 1988/89 so I saw the new tech as it was introduced. When TR2750 came out it was a neat book with advanced weapons but the most interesting part was that no mech or Vehicle had more the 3 new tech items. When TR3050 came out the designs used a lot of new tech, but for the most part they were upgrades of existing production lines, there were very few new lines. Then you get to TR3055 and TR3058, 2 books that I will argue are really bad for the BT universe. One problem is that both books introduce a lot of new manufacturers- not just Defiance added a new production line, but entirely new factories just popping up over night. Even worse a number of these factories were described as former SL era ones that were abandoned or destroyed, but 300 years later can easily be reactivated- if they could be rebuilt that easily why didn't the Successor States do that during the 3rd SW when they were desperate for mech production? I've never understood this. (as a side note it bothers me in current products when the say factory xyz shut down during the later years of the SWs because their products were unpopular- if you are in an era when any equipment is scarce are you really going to shut down a working factory? One example of this is the Ironsides aerospace fighter.)
The other problem was TR3058- one of the worst TRs in BT as so many of the designs are optimized designs with no flaws. Many of the designs in there were SL era designs that were far more powerful then the ones in TR2750. So suddenly TR2750 looks silly and results in the recent efforts to explain that what we thought were advanced SLDF designs, weren't. But that's a separate issue from what we are discussing.
Amen!
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When TR2750 came out it was a neat book with advanced weapons but the most interesting part was that no mech or Vehicle had more the 3 new tech items. When TR3050 came out the designs used a lot of new tech, but for the most part they were upgrades of existing production lines, there were very few new lines.
Sorry to jump over your response KM but this quote is golden. I'd be very happy tapping into the TRO2750 mojo for house Mechs with new weapons like the Dragon and Jenner. The rest should be refits in the spirit of TRO3050 designed on the lessons of the Hidden Wars, the Periphery Uprising, and the Amaris Coup. As the Succession War goes on we could come up with more refits based on the availability of tech. How about this for a three tiered equipment table.
High tech optimization should be reserved for VIPs and the Terrans building off SLDF Royal Units. Maybe that should be our "A" rated equipment.
B would be the above TRO2750 new builds and TRO3050 refits.
C should be 3025 Level 1 tech
We could go lower I guess but the variety is somewhat limited in this era so I figure more like the ComGuards then the Houses if you catch my comparison for equipment ratings.
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Looking over Klondike, I thought the most interesting implication was related to the organization of the SLDF. It held up the references to SL Regular Army Armored Divisions first referenced in the Invader Clans SB. I would have thought they would have retconned it out, but they kept it in Khan Osis's profile. I wonder what that means for the overall size of the SLDF, in particular its tank forces?
Sorry if this post is a little OT.
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I don't necessarily agree that numerical superiority dictates the length or tenure of a Civil War. I mean the Star League forces enjoyed only a decent numerical and technological advantage over their Periphery opponents during the Reunification War and it lasted over a decade. The will to fight can not always be measured in simple numerical terms. Fictionally, the Taurians are living proof. They effectively reinvented and popularized the human-wave attack.
But I think the Uprisings were different from the RW- During the Uprisings I think the SLDF had a much larger numerical advantage over the Periphery forces. I agree that the will to fight is important, but I also think the governments of the Periphery states (especially the TC and the MOC) were playing a risky game- remember the TC did not succeed from the Star League- only some of the member worlds did. I would argue that the periphery leaders hoped they would badly bloody the SLDF, which they did and the SL would then leave the periphery as not being worth the trouble. Instead General Kerensky initially retreated and then came back with a vengeance to put down the rebellion. Had the war lasted much longer I suspect the rebels would have gone to ground (supported by their governments) and prepared for the next Uprising.
The point I was trying to make and I think you inadvertently expand on, is that the Periphery Uprising forces were pan-Periphery units drawn from every Periphery state. Assuming they weren't screwed by Amaris there's no reason to think these Periphery divisions wouldn't fight on longer; bleeding the SLDF more and possibly gaining actual concessions from the Star League government. I mean, given the success of their initial attack it's not difficult to imagine the other leaders of the Periphery Uprising being a little less likely to bargain with Kerensky had Amaris not launched his Coup and as you pointed out, in 1-2 years of fighting the Uprising cost the SLDF close to 25% of its operational strength. That's a fair bit of success by anyone's measure.
I agree the Rebels were incredibly successful- but I think by 2767 they were were in bad shape- many units had been destroyed and there were no reserves. The SLDF on the other had still had huge numbers of troops who had not been commited to the war, could in theory call on the support of the Great Houses and had a large training system that was turning out large numbers of troops. I think the Periphery forces had used up the element of surprise and the Uprising had turned into a war of attrition, which the rebels had no hope of winning. Yes the rebels would fight for as long as they could but I don't think it would be that long...
Honestly, I'm sure the SLDF could have moved the supplies. If any of those massive and costly war games show, is that in a pinch the SLDF can move stuff around. I'm sure if Kerensky believed that the Periphery Uprising would include 50 'Mech Divisions or any significant 'Mech forces for that matter he would have ordered the movement of additional materials out of the Hegemony. His sudden order to withdraw from the Periphery when these 'Mech Divisions appear reinforces the notion that not only was the SLDF caught completely off guard, but it was physically caught unprepared as well.
But did they ability to move the supplies and troops simultaneously? I'm not sure the SLDF could redeploy most of it's divisions and enough supplies to support them for 2 years in the field at the same time.
This is a good question. I guess it would depend on how tightly and how integrated the Republican forces were after the initial takeover of the Hegemony. If the SLDF was physically capable of immediately attacking the new Amaris Empire they'd still face most of the remaining SDSes but they'd also be facing Republican-held worlds that didn't benefit from two years of fortification (re)building or renewed arms production, or populations starved half to death. Rim Worlds forces also wouldn't have the time to upgrade all of their units with Hegemony technology and if they did, wouldn't be very familiar with their use. Nor would Amaris enjoy the time to leisurely strip the Terran Hegemony of its grandeur.
However, it brings to light another questions/problem. If Amaris wasn't afforded the time to strip the Hegemony and was immediately placed on the defensively would he have destroyed more of the Hegemony outright rather than try to hoard it?
Those are some good points- I guess the SLDF would have a slight advantage over the RWR- but as you point out Amaris may have been more brutal in his efforts to defend the TH, and inflicted more damage on the worlds of the Hegemony.
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High tech optimization should be reserved for VIPs and the Terrans building off SLDF Royal Units. Maybe that should be our "A" rated equipment.
B would be the above TRO2750 new builds and TRO3050 refits.
I would tend to limit the TR3050 refits to weapons, heatsinks and the like- unless these "refits" are new production from a factory they should not have any structural improvements (Case, Endo Steel, Ferro-Fibrous Armor, XL Engines). And as a note, the TR3050 mechs typically used more L2 tech the TR2750 mechs, but they also used it poorly (reflecting the designers lack of experience with the new equipment).
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Looking over Klondike, I thought the most interesting implication was related to the organization of the SLDF. It held up the references to SL Regular Army Armored Divisions first referenced in the Invader Clans SB. I would have thought they would have retconned it out, but they kept it in Khan Osis's profile. I wonder what that means for the overall size of the SLDF, in particular its tank forces?
Sorry if this post is a little OT.
Not a problem. That is interesting in regards to the SLDF whom I thought didn't utilize armor. Any other useful information on them??
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Not a problem. That is interesting in regards to the SLDF whom I thought didn't utilize armor. Any other useful information on them??
The SLSB has some info on the SLDF armored units- The TO&E for a regular army mech division shows a brigade of 3 armor regiments assigned to the division. It also says the SLDF had Assault, Heavy, Medium & Light Tank Regiments, Hovercraft Regiments and Wheeled Regiments. Most were assigned to divisions as anti-mech regiments or given garrison duty (SLSB p. 134)
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Looking over Klondike, I thought the most interesting implication was related to the organization of the SLDF. It held up the references to SL Regular Army Armored Divisions first referenced in the Invader Clans SB. I would have thought they would have retconned it out, but they kept it in Khan Osis's profile. I wonder what that means for the overall size of the SLDF, in particular its tank forces?
Sorry if this post is a little OT.
Not a problem. That is interesting in regards to the SLDF whom I thought didn't utilize armor. Any other useful information on them??
Well the SLDF always had armored regiments, that was never in debate going back to the SL SB. The thing was that they were depicted as being attached to other units as armored brigades. It seems every division in the Regular Army had such a brigade of three regiments, and the ones attached to Battlemech Divisions had two heavy armored regiments and one anti-air regiment. Other divisions may have used different configurations. There were also a handful of independent armor units at the Corps level, but nothing too noteworthy.
The only reason I bring all of this up is because the armored divisions was one of the most obscure references in the old FASA lore. They could have been easily retconed without much notice, and yet they kept it and added it into one of the most important sourcebooks in years. Maybe they simply did not think of it at the time, but for all intents and purposes they made the Armored Divisions current canon.
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But I think the Uprisings were different from the RW- During the Uprisings I think the SLDF had a much larger numerical advantage over the Periphery forces. I agree that the will to fight is important, but I also think the governments of the Periphery states (especially the TC and the MOC) were playing a risky game- remember the TC did not succeed from the Star League- only some of the member worlds did. I would argue that the periphery leaders hoped they would badly bloody the SLDF, which they did and the SL would then leave the periphery as not being worth the trouble. Instead General Kerensky initially retreated and then came back with a vengeance to put down the rebellion. Had the war lasted much longer I suspect the rebels would have gone to ground (supported by their governments) and prepared for the next Uprising.
The Uprising was definitely a risky proposition but I think you're underestimating the resolve of the Periphery or the type of game they playing. I tend to view the Periphery Uprising as the opening stages of a possible war of independence for the Periphery realms. It makes sense that the Periphery governments wouldn't openly rebel. Their leaders would want to gauge the SLDF's/Star League's response (because they're two different things) before committing themselves to a specific course of action and of course to bloody the nose of the SLDF a bit with minimized risk.
Now assuming for a second the Coup did not occur it's very possible that another "Sparks of Santiago," engineered or otherwise was in the works. All it takes is a minor screw up and the whole Periphery goes up in flames, or at least a good portion of it. And I don't believe the rebels would have "gone to ground" quietly. I just think the periphery would suffer another wave of terrorist attacks while they regrouped their physical strength. Remember, the only reason why the SLDF was even remotely successful the first time around is because Amaris sold the TFA out. Which on a side note, doubly helped the Star League because the SAS's methods were becoming so brutal they would have likely been the spark responsible for setting the whole Concordat ablaze.
I agree the Rebels were incredibly successful- but I think by 2767 they were were in bad shape- many units had been destroyed and there were no reserves. The SLDF on the other had still had huge numbers of troops who had not been committed to the war, could in theory call on the support of the Great Houses and had a large training system that was turning out large numbers of troops. I think the Periphery forces had used up the element of surprise and the Uprising had turned into a war of attrition, which the rebels had no hope of winning. Yes the rebels would fight for as long as they could but I don't think it would be that long...
Personally I think you're looking at this too linearly, but that's just my opinion. By 2767 the rebels weren't better armed than their Reunification War ancestors and they managed to bloody the League for over a decade. The problem, or rather the strength of the rebels here is that they have the tacit approval of their governments. The SLDF has to be careful in rooting them out, as opposed to conducting the same type of total war campaign it did during the RW - that's playing with super dangerous fire. So the rebels won't be fighting pitched standard battles, they'll just go back to another round of terrorism while they rebuild or setup the next "phase" of the rebellion. I don't think they'd simply stop. I think this was just the beginning.
You also have to wonder if the Great Houses would support a war to reclaim the Periphery...
I mean by 2767 the House leaders were already teetering on the edge of washing their hands of the Star League altogether. In their eyes the League had served its purpose, now it was beginning to become troublesome. The House Lords were also more or less done raping the periphery, so you have to wonder if another possible Reunification War was on the horizon would that have been the straw that broke the Star League's back and not the Coup?
I mean you know Richard II, who was incredibly unpopular with the High Council would have pitched a fit if the periphery realms ceded from the League and would demand its reconquest. The House Lords, who really don't give a damn would just wait for poor Richard to pull some illegal nonsense so they could withdrawal their support from any military endeavor, or just drag their knuckles getting anything done (why destroy the military gains you've just spent a decade rebuilding for a League you USE, but not really believe in?) all while the SLDF bleeds to death for lack of support. At that point the SLDF ceases to be as scary as it once was and the House leaders simply dissolve their involvement in the Star League since it no longer works for them, nor does it unite all the disparate peoples of the Inner Sphere under one flag, blah, blah, blah and so on, just fast forward to 2781. Richard II is likely to be deposed or forcibly removed at some point because I can almost guarantee he's going to have a mental breakdown worse than Johnathan's. You'll probably end up with Kerensky as Regent until Cameron's daughter is old enough to take the Hegemony throne.
Welcome Age of War II, but with a fully stocked Terran Hegemony. ;D
But did they ability to move the supplies and troops simultaneously? I'm not sure the SLDF could redeploy most of it's divisions and enough supplies to support them for 2 years in the field at the same time.
I'm thinking so. They didn't give those tin-can WarShips of theirs ridiculous cargo-carrying capacity's for nothing. :D Besides, it's an on-going effort. Just means Kerensky's move into the Periphery would have taken a little bit longer as he spent more time preparing.
I would tend to limit the TR3050 refits to weapons, heatsinks and the like- unless these "refits" are new production from a factory they should not have any structural improvements (Case, Endo Steel, Ferro-Fibrous Armor, XL Engines). And as a note, the TR3050 mechs typically used more L2 tech the TR2750 mechs, but they also used it poorly (reflecting the designers lack of experience with the new equipment).
I would remove Ferro-Fibrous Armor and maybe CASE from that list. Since Ferror-Fibrous armor is an external application that could probably be refitted without too much trouble. For gaming purposes we use internal crits, but in reality it would just be a question of recognizing the bulk difference to determine weight and volume before application. As for CASE, I know it's a two part system (the actual ammunition box/escape hatch and the software) and that for some BattleMech models, retro-fitting CASE could be accomplished rather easily while it's waiting for a new skin of Ferro-Fibrous armor. However, I would council restraint when using CASE (if using it at all) because of the structural work involved in any installation more difficult than the Enforcer's AC/10 setup. You know, "load a clip in the rear and you're finished" kind of setup. ;)
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Just two quick thoughts:
1. Why would the SLDF expect anything else than a long and difficult war against the Periphery? The Reunification War is there to show it.
2. Don't forget that some top industries/industrial worlds of the Successor States were Hegemony worlds or shared ones.
This gives every unit of the SLDF a possible access to advanced Hegemony items.
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1. Why would the SLDF expect anything else than a long and difficult war against the Periphery? The Reunification War is there to show it.
Because militaries and governments are run by people with short life spans and limited memories. Plus the writers wanted to bleed the SLDF a little bit more than if could have or should have been. :P
2. Don't forget that some top industries/industrial worlds of the Successor States were Hegemony worlds or shared ones.
This gives every unit of the SLDF a possible access to advanced Hegemony items.
Shared worlds were politically and economically distinctive but not indicative of anything else. Just because the Hegemony and a House shared a particular world, doesn't mean it was brimming with advanced weapons technologies or military supplies. A great deal of the shared worlds were shared for economic/resource reasons first and foremost, though in Hesperus II's case military applications played a key role in the world's development.
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The Uprising was definitely a risky proposition but I think you're underestimating the resolve of the Periphery or the type of game they playing. I tend to view the Periphery Uprising as the opening stages of a possible war of independence for the Periphery realms. It makes sense that the Periphery governments wouldn't openly rebel. Their leaders would want to gauge the SLDF's/Star League's response (because they're two different things) before committing themselves to a specific course of action and of course to bloody the nose of the SLDF a bit with minimized risk.
Now assuming for a second the Coup did not occur it's very possible that another "Sparks of Santiago," engineered or otherwise was in the works. All it takes is a minor screw up and the whole Periphery goes up in flames, or at least a good portion of it. And I don't believe the rebels would have "gone to ground" quietly. I just think the periphery would suffer another wave of terrorist attacks while they regrouped their physical strength. Remember, the only reason why the SLDF was even remotely successful the first time around is because Amaris sold the TFA out. Which on a side note, doubly helped the Star League because the SAS's methods were becoming so brutal they would have likely been the spark responsible for setting the whole Concordat ablaze.
As a Periphery player I understand the resolved of the Periphery states when it comes to their freedom. However I think that when the Periphery states launched the Uprisings they committed everything they had- there were no more reserves waiting for the right opportunity. I'm old school when it comes to Battletech and I tend to prefer the older products, even with their errors, over the revised history. (Side note: I'm all for correcting actual errors with dates and continuity, I hate the revisionist trend that some of the current products have of revising history to be more in line with the current writers biases.) Periphery 1e strongly implies that during the SL era, the TC had almost no standing military - almost certainly no mech regiments, just local militias. By the same token I can argue that the MAF was composed of the 1st & 2nd Canopian Light Horse and a few supporting units. It was only the RWR which had anything resembling a regular standing army, and that was because the Amaris family was nominally loyal to the SL. So I just find it very unlikely that the Periphery governments would be able to provide any support to continue the fighting much past 2767-2768. They had their opportunity, it was a big risk, they took and in the end, they did the best they could but it wasn't enough.
Also there is no need for a "Sparks of Santiago" it had already occurred during the incidents on New Vandenberg- most of the periphery was already in revolt by 2766. The fact that that the Hyades Cluster appears to have stayed out of the fighting seems to be more the exception then the rule and can probably be attributed to the Calderon's desire to protect the cluster from fighting (see the Reunification War when Marantha Calderon surrendered rather then allow the SLDF to invade the worlds of the cluster).
Personally I think you're looking at this too linearly, but that's just my opinion. By 2767 the rebels weren't better armed than their Reunification War ancestors and they managed to bloody the League for over a decade. The problem, or rather the strength of the rebels here is that they have the tacit approval of their governments. The SLDF has to be careful in rooting them out, as opposed to conducting the same type of total war campaign it did during the RW - that's playing with super dangerous fire. So the rebels won't be fighting pitched standard battles, they'll just go back to another round of terrorism while they rebuild or setup the next "phase" of the rebellion. I don't think they'd simply stop. I think this was just the beginning.
I think the situation was somewhat different in 2766 then it was during the RW. The biggest difference was the size of the attackers- during the RW I don't think the SLDF had enough forces to invade the TC across a broad front, in fact the early years of the war were a series of invasions, one after another, rarely simultaneous attacks against multiple worlds. During the Uprisings, the SLDF could easily invade 20 or 30 worlds without breaking a sweat. So the war could be fought against a broad front and would end much sooner. Also I don't see why the SL would be concerned about the periphery governments. Quite truthfully, from the First Lords perspective, if the Periphery governments could be tied to the Uprisings, then they are committing acts of treason and should be handled approriately (i.e. executed). That wouldn't stop the rebels, they would just go back to the same terror tactics they used prior to the Uprisings, but they would lack the strength to be challenge the entire SLDF. The only thing that I could see preventing a total war campaign in the Periphery is General Kerensky, who seemed to be concerned with preserving the SL and does not seem prone to using the same scorched earth tactics that Furlough used during the RW.
You also have to wonder if the Great Houses would support a war to reclaim the Periphery...
I mean by 2767 the House leaders were already teetering on the edge of washing their hands of the Star League altogether. In their eyes the League had served its purpose, now it was beginning to become troublesome. The House Lords were also more or less done raping the periphery, so you have to wonder if another possible Reunification War was on the horizon would that have been the straw that broke the Star League's back and not the Coup?
I mean you know Richard II, who was incredibly unpopular with the High Council would have pitched a fit if the periphery realms ceded from the League and would demand its reconquest. The House Lords, who really don't give a damn would just wait for poor Richard to pull some illegal nonsense so they could withdrawal their support from any military endeavor, or just drag their knuckles getting anything done (why destroy the military gains you've just spent a decade rebuilding for a League you USE, but not really believe in?) all while the SLDF bleeds to death for lack of support. At that point the SLDF ceases to be as scary as it once was and the House leaders simply dissolve their involvement in the Star League since it no longer works for them, nor does it unite all the disparate peoples of the Inner Sphere under one flag, blah, blah, blah and so on, just fast forward to 2781. Richard II is likely to be deposed or forcibly removed at some point because I can almost guarantee he's going to have a mental breakdown worse than Johnathan's. You'll probably end up with Kerensky as Regent until Cameron's daughter is old enough to take the Hegemony throne.
That seems very likely- I could see the IS houses "supporting" a war to reclaim the Periphery as a way to weaken the SLDF before they tried to launch their own coup to become First Lord.
I would remove Ferro-Fibrous Armor and maybe CASE from that list. Since Ferror-Fibrous armor is an external application that could probably be refitted without too much trouble. For gaming purposes we use internal crits, but in reality it would just be a question of recognizing the bulk difference to determine weight and volume before application. As for CASE, I know it's a two part system (the actual ammunition box/escape hatch and the software) and that for some BattleMech models, retro-fitting CASE could be accomplished rather easily while it's waiting for a new skin of Ferro-Fibrous armor. However, I would council restraint when using CASE (if using it at all) because of the structural work involved in any installation more difficult than the Enforcer's AC/10 setup. You know, "load a clip in the rear and you're finished" kind of setup. ;)
I would say the complexity of armor replacement depends on how the armor is mounted. If it is designed to be modular (like say the real life Merkava Tank) it may be fairly easy. It is part of the structure (like say a cast tank turret) it would be far more complex to replace- the best you could do is supplement it with additional plating welded to the outside.
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So, and yes i am comming into this discussion late, it seems to me that the concensus here is that the House armies should in 2785 be fielding equipment that has been re-fitted to the TRO3050 level and, maybe, building the same?
Maybe we should reflect that with TA:2785? For example the Shadow Hawk factory in our universe should at this point in time be building something similar to the -5M of TRO3050 rather than the -2H and as the succession war drags on we can take production back to that level?
I would argue that there is a precident already set for this by the Trebuchet which had the -3C model in production when the succession war starts but by the end of the 1st war the 'dumbed down' -5N was the standard production model. (Source TRO3050U)
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So, and yes i am comming into this discussion late, it seems to me that the concensus here is that the House armies should in 2785 be fielding equipment that has been re-fitted to the TRO3050 level and, maybe, building the same?
Maybe we should reflect that with TA:2785? For example the Shadow Hawk factory in our universe should at this point in time be building something similar to the -5M of TRO3050 rather than the -2H and as the succession war drags on we can take production back to that level?
I would argue that there is a precident already set for this by the Trebuchet which had the -3C model in production when the succession war starts but by the end of the 1st war the 'dumbed down' -5N was the standard production model. (Source TRO3050U)
I would suggest leaving out specific model types - first we don't necessary have the models worked out for the new tech versions and they are not necessarily (and probably should not be) exact copies of the TR3050 designs. Also I don't think every factory would be upgraded to build new tech models. If we just leave production as Shadow Hawk, we have more flexibility in the future when we do need to specify model types.
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I couldn't agree more with Irose. Keep it vague. Vagueness offers far more fictional flexibility. :D
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That makes sense i guess.
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Have to agree with the vagueness. ;)
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Fair enough, i can be very vague when needed ;)
Just a thought i had whilst out shopping this morning, but as of 2785, and using the Shadow Hawk as the example again could we see something like this:-
Federated Suns - Shadow Hawk SHD-2Hd - Upgrade of the -2H for the AFFS with 2 or 3 pieces of high tech equipment along the lines of the later -2D.
Draconis Combine - Shadow Hawk SHD-2Hk - As above for the DCMS which again later in the succession wars will be downgraded to the -2K.
Free Worlds League - Shadow Hawk SHD-3M or -4M - Production varient for the FWLM's best units with 4 or 5 pieces of high tech which as the wars drag on will revert back to standard -2H production.
As you've said we can just say Shadow Hawk in TA:2785 and flesh them out later.