OBT Forum

Another interesting aspect to this discussion is the Expansion of the Edict of 2650 in 2752 which allowed the doubling of the house armies.  Having done the research for Threat Assessments the conclusion I came to was that the house armies did not dramatically expand between 2752 and 2786. The Lyran Commonwealth is specially said to have 3 activated 3 mothballed regiments and created 10 new ones in the expansion of the house armies- given that the LCAF has 122 regiments at the start of the 1st SW, the really only grew by a little more then 10%.

So what does this mean- I have no idea, we don't have enough info for a definitive answer- but let's take a look at this as best we can
1) in 2750, the LCAF was most likely following the limits of the Edict of 2650-
2) It appears that the LCAF had at most 109 regiments in 2750 (122 from 2786 less the 13 created after 2750) This number could be less depending on the following- does the 122 include mercs hired after the fall of the SL, does the 13 mech regiments that were added include all new regiments added after 2750.  For arguments sake lets says another 13 regiments were added between 2752 and 2786 - so that prior to 2752 the  LCAF had 96 regiments-
3) The expansion of the edict of 2650 allowed the house armies to double in size
4) If the LCAF had 96 regiments in 2750, then they could go to 192 regiments in 2752.
5) So why is lCAF in 2786 only 122 regiments, or 70 regiments below the limit (theoretically) allowed during the SLDF?

My theory is that the resources that were available were thrown into upgrade kits, rather then new mechs.  If the LCAF was going to add a lot of regiments post 2752, then I suspect the new regiments would either receive new equipment (and be better equipped then older units) or the older units would receive the new gear and the old equipment would be passed on to the new regiments.  The only reason you would not have this surplus of equipment is if you were spending your resources on upgrade kits, rather then new mechs.

On the other hand I have a hard time believing advanced tech was that wide spread-from a practical view point (always dangerous in BT I know),  If advanced tech was so common, then techs would know how to repair it- and even given the wide spread destruction of the SWs some of that knowledge should have survived to 3025, unless Comstar's Holy Shroud was just that effective....  

Hey guys sorry I haven't been around to join in this great discussion. A lot of great points made by Knightmare, Hessian, and Irose. This morning I typed up for a general post on a few forums. Let me know what you think!

Tech Level of the InnerSphere in 2785?

We are currently debating this issue for BattleTech Shattered Dawn as we develop our latest Fanbook – Threat Assessments 2785. I wanted to get all possible input before we come up with our answer. Now we are talking just after the Exodus and prior to the seizure of Hegemony worlds which undoubtedly enriched Houses armies with its high tech assets. Here are some points I’m thinking about.

Original Assumptions. TRO 2750 painted a Level 1 picture for the main body of armies in 2785 at least to me. Sure there are unique cases of House Lords or Special VIPs fielding highly optimized Level 2 designs but elite units as well? I doubted it. Contigents like the Davion Guards or the Swords of Light would have 3050 refit kits. Older mechs upgraded with “new” tech in the buildup to the Succession Wars. I had envisioned more of a 3039 type environment with certain things like double heat sinks being prevalent but certain weaponry being limited at best. For the bulk of the House Lords military it was good old Level 1 designs right out of TRO3025 but recent canon products have made me question this.

Availability Issue. Tech Manual was the first thing to put a hole in my original premise and made clear that most tech that “debuted” in TRO 2750 was originally produced for the Reunification War (2570-2590s) some one hundred and fifty years earlier. Prototypes like the Gauss Rifle were seen in the field years prior to their formal introduction (2587 in this case for example) Good relations between the Houses are approaching their zenith and the Camerons who absorbed much of their armies to wage the Reunification War seem willing to trade tech freely at this time. No doubt returning veterans from their nations would bring back tales or even examples of high tech equipment. After the start of widespread conflict (the Hidden Wars) in the 2720s (War of Davion Succession and the Marik Civil War) a natural response from the Hegemony to restrict tech would be assumed. Did the initial friendliness of the Star League preclude the Hegemony Blacklist and see a spread of Level 2 tech weapons and equipment to the Great Houses or did they restrict its spread even at this happy time?

Here is a list of Level 2 equipment from Tech Manual and the date of its introduction by the Terran Hegemony: Beagle Active Probe (2576), Anti Missile System (2617), Ferro Fibrous (2571), Artemis IV FCS (2598), LB-X 10 Autocannon (2595), Ultra Autocannon 5 (2640), CASE (2476), Guardian ECM Suite (2597), Gauss Rifle (2590), Double Heat Sinks (2567), EndoSteel (2487), ER Large Laser (2620), Pulse Lasers (2609), Streak SRM 2 (2676), Swarm LRM (2621), Thunder LRM (2621), MASC (2740), Narc Missile Beacon (2587), ER PPC (2760), Snub Nose PPC (experimental), TAG (2600)

Science over Defense. It would seem that the Star League focused on the development of pure science over weaponry especially after the conclusion of the Reunification War. Using the information we have from Tech Manual could we draw the logical conclusion that industry and technical know how of the age surpassed basic weapon design? What I’m getting at is the simplicity of Level 2 tech when compared to other inventions of the day which could have been more complex. Hence development, replacement, repair of these defense technologies wouldn’t be all that difficult for the Houses to implement.

Royal Tech. Appearing in TRO 3075 and again in Historical Operation Klondike seems to point to House Manufacturing of these high tech designs for Kerensky during the Amaris Coup. Alternately I could even see Amaris supplying technical information to his Kurita allies if only to keep them happy. So over the last 18 years the Houses have had a great deal of access to this high tech. However everything isn’t so rosy. Fiscally I could see the Periphery Uprising and the Coup causing great economic turmoil which might restrict a general buildup until the actual disbandment of the High Council in 2781. After that the gloves are likely to come off as each nation would embark on military build ups.

Arms Amendment of 2752. This allowed the Innersphere nations to double their private militaries with House Armies rising from 60-70 Mech regiments to 120-140! Now the Edict of 2650 never prevented the Houses from stockpiling arms, see Davion, so a large degree of older equipment was likely mothballed when the law went into effect only to be activated for use a century later. That is also a hundred years for the nations of the InnerSphere to develop a select supply of reserve equipment. Even this might not cover the massive expansion that the Great Houses have to cover and fast. Cheap and easy to produce level one equipment could be an effective method of fielding massive new contingents as quickly as possible. Given the state of the Star League (Kerensky’s regency, the growing Hidden Wars, and the Periphery buildup) “topping out” at the new limit seems wise.

New Designs. While many Mech designs are fairly ubiquitous in the years running up to the Succession War several new products unique to individual Houses are being fielded.
For example - Dragon (2754), Enforcer (2777), Trebuchet (2780), Jenner (2784), Valkyrie (2787), Hermes II (2798), Centurion (2801). Were these designs produced with Level 2 tech originally?

So what are we talking about here? Do the Houses field a great amount of Level 2 equipment? Do only the very best units field the stuff? Are they similar to the armies of 3039 or 3050? Or do they possess even better weaponry?

As for numero uno - I personally don't place much credence or weight to it. Three of the designs you've mentioned above were built by the Federated Suns alone, which is telling enough, but which House is missing from the list and should be there? I'll give you a hint - their flag shows a mailed iron fist of economic dominance!

We know that the LC has always enjoyed the largest and most robust economy of all the Great Houses besides the Terran Hegemony. So what does it say when the LC isn't producing new designs, but nations like the Federated Suns, FWL and Draconis Combine are? I mean we could say that the LC was focused solely on expanding their existing military - but not a single new design, not even one? Come on, that doesn't sound right at all.    

What about being satisfied with what you have in store?
And being a really close friend of the main R&D source: the Hegemony?

2. There are other mitigating factors we're not taking into account.

Could there have been designs that were build close to or after the fall of the Star League (thus not being in any cannon TRO), but whose factories were destroyed prior to the out break of the 3rd SW (thus not making it into TRO 3025)? This might explain why only certain houses have battlemech's that were produced after the fall of the SL but are still in circulation in TRO 3025 (example the Centurion is built on New Avalon, not an easy target to hit). It could also be that a state like the Lyran Commonwealth developed designs that were based on limited level 2 tech but were unable to continue production when the technology declined and there was no suitable way to convert the design to level 1. The manufacturing space would than reallocated to more easily manufactured mech's and the blue prints went the way of three week old left overs.

Just some thoughts.

We can all agree that the Amaris Coup caused a great deal of economic disruption. I mean it was effectively the death knell of the Star League's integrated economic system - thank you Amaris for wrecking the Hegemony. But the jury's still out on how bad the Periphery Uprising effected the League's integrated economy.

I can say with almost absolute certainty that the Uprising caused some sort of fiscal downturn, but to what effect it may have had on a military expansion...no idea.

I would say it had at least some impact on military expansion- many companies (such as Paulina Weapons on New Vandenberg or Mountain Wolf on Alpheratz) opened major factories in the Periphery to take advantage of cheap labor- even if the factories weren't destroyed, the disruption of transportation would effectively result in them providing no materials to the IS houses.

As for numero uno - I personally don't place much credence or weight to it. Three of the designs you've mentioned above were built by the Federated Suns alone, which is telling enough, but which House is missing from the list and should be there? I'll give you a hint - their flag shows a mailed iron fist of economic dominance!

We know that the LC has always enjoyed the largest and most robust economy of all the Great Houses besides the Terran Hegemony. So what does it say when the LC isn't producing new designs, but nations like the Federated Suns, FWL and Draconis Combine are? I mean we could say that the LC was focused solely on expanding their existing military - but not a single new design, not even one? Come on, that doesn't sound right at all.    

That's just one bit to stew on.

A little more to stew on- we are missing a design for the LC- the Zeus was introduced 2787.  We also have designs like the Sling would probably should be counted.  But wait you say the Sling was designed by/for the SLDF...well so was the Valkyrie- which according to the fluff was not an FS design, it was an SLDF design that did not enter service until after the fall of the SL.  The Trebuchet also falls in this category, being one of the last mechs designed for the SLDF.  And the Enforcer is just a modifed version of an SLDF design( the Enfield).  So what this really says is that prior to the 1st SW, the Combine is the only house that is (as far as we know) designing and building new mech designs (and even then the Dragon was originally designed for the SLDF but rejected).  

As for other mitigating factors, a counter-counter to my last statement could simply be that the Great Houses did not yet want to engage in an all out arms race. This could come about for a number of reasons. I mean for one, the expansion of their armies was really a calculated roll of the dice. It could have backfired or never have happened at all. When Richard II did come to power the Houses could have lost the expansion and then where would the Council Lords be monetarily after sinking all that money into their militaries? Or maybe they didn't go all out because the House Lords really didn't have the same crystal ball we enjoy...they played the military expansion and growth game slow simply because the Lords knew they were playing with fire. Who wants to be the House Lord responsible for bringing down the SLDF on their heads or breaking apart the Star League before it was more or less already dissolved?

There something to be said in support of this- the House Steiner SBs (both the origanl SB and the new HB) say that the amendment to the edict of 2650 it allowed them to double the size of their armies, not that they actually doubled them.  The Steiner SBs specifically say that the LC reactivated 3 mothballed regiments and added 10 new ones in response to the amendment -surely the LCAF had more 13 regiments in 2750.  I think this shows that there were limits to how much the IS powers could or choose to spend on their armies.  I think it is also evidence that if they did upgrade their regiments with level 2 tech, they used upgrade kits, rather then entire new mechs- otherwise the older mechs could have been used to created additional regiments, why throw out serviceable mechs just because they are not state of the art- if nothing else you would assign them to local militias and the BT equivalent of the US national guard.

I think this statement is applicable once the Periphery Rebellion erupts, but prior, say from 2752 to 2764 the SLDF is more or less in a state of peace. The SLDF's equipment and logistic requirements wouldn't jump until Kerensky starts preparing to reinforce the pre-existing Periphery garrisons. Even if we shave a year or two off, we still have the better part of a decade where the House Lords are going to upgrade in earnest, without an SLDF hungry for any and all production.

I would go with less in a state of peace- you the ronin and gunslingers fighting in the DC, the Davion War of Succession and Operation Smother, pirate attacks and terrorism in the periphery (which stepped up dramatically after 2752).  Even if combat losses are low, a high op-tempo could create a strong demand for replacement parts/equipment.

It's also worth mentioning that the SLDF really started leaning on the Great Houses in earnest for logistic and equipment support only after Amaris claimed their logistic/production center (the Hegemony) and years of constant fighting. The SLDF may not have been as dependent on Member-State sources prior to the Coup as you may think they were. After all, the Hegemony was certainly the most stable and altruistic component of the Star League - the nation was after all its chief architect, desiree and most integrated/dependent nation.

I agree that the source material does make it appear that the SLDF did not depend heavily on the production from the Great Houses.  But then again there were numerous SLDF commissioned manufacturing programs that were located the broders of the Great Houses.  I would say that the SLDF did get a good portion of it's equipment from factories in the Great Houses.

True, but these were expansion facilities designed to take advantage of these new areas of exploitation. Their original/preexisting facilities would continue to operate "as is" in their original home nations. Sure it's a corporate setback, but how much of a national setback?

I guess that depends on how much the SLDF spread out it's production to reduce shipping/logistical issues- i.e. maybe the Mountain Wolf factory in the OA provided Night Hawk mechs for SLDF regiments in the DC/OA/FC area while the Vendrell plant supplied those in the RWR/LC and FWL.  Another thing to consider is the Cyrano entry in TR3050U which implies the Cyrano was developed and built by the New Vandenberg factory and the SLDF became the primary purchaser of the design.  That somewhat refutes the idea that the periphery factories were expansion facilities and at the same time indicates that the Cyrano (a level 2 design) was sold to parties other the SLDF....

Quote from: lrose on June 07, 2010, 06:55:13 PM

I think it is also evidence that if they did upgrade their regiments with level 2 tech, they used upgrade kits, rather then entire new mechs- otherwise the older mechs could have been used to created additional regiments, why throw out serviceable mechs just because they are not state of the art- if nothing else you would assign them to local militias and the BT equivalent of the US national guard.

 

If it worked for the Terran Hegemony on a world like New Dallas, why wouldn't it work for the Lyran Commonwealth...

I'm not saying it didn't, just that we have not seen any evidence of this- of course by 3025 these miltias may have been stripped of mechs to replace those lost in front line units.

I would go with less in a state of peace- you the Ronin and Gunslingers fighting in the DC, the Davion War of Succession and Operation Smother, pirate attacks and terrorism in the periphery (which stepped up dramatically after 2752).  Even if combat losses are low, a high op-tempo could create a strong demand for replacement parts/equipment.

I guess it's really a question of what you consider "peace."

From an equipment usage standpoint I'd say none of your aforementioned examples even come close to using or requiring the same level of material compared to the Periphery uprising and later. The First Hidden War took place between individual soldiers already assigned to preexisting units in their normal garrisons. These are individual 'Mechs being used with the same frequency as a Solaris Gladiator. Not exactly high requirements. Whereas the pirate attacks and periphery terrorism wasn't met with the reinforcement of regular SLDF Divisions, with division-level material requirements, but with SAS brigades who were more than likely outfitted solely with conventional gear. Outside of Operation Smother, which again only saw the deployment of half a dozen Division-sized units, the SLDF's material usage was more or less stagnant throughout the period.

I'm not suggesting the SLDF didn't continue to stockpile material, but what concrete evidence existed during the era to suggest a forthcoming Periphery Rebellion and Amaris Coup-type fighting to the people in charge? The fact that the SLDF had to rely heavily on some of the Great Houses to provide equipment and materials during the liberation is telling. It says to me that the SLDF wasn't deploying the Hegemony resource hub and its great stores to suppress the Periphery Rebellion. Sure it was moving in troops to crush the uprising, but it wasn't deploying for a Reunification War-type multi-year conflict. If it were, the SLDF would have been in a far better position materially to reclaim the Hegemony, nor require a lengthy two-year refit period in the conquered Rim Worlds. The truth is that the SLDF would have brought more supplies to forward areas closer to the TC if it were expecting a long, drawn out conflict. Which initially Kerensky clearly did not think was going to occur.    

I agree that the source material does make it appear that the SLDF did not depend heavily on the production from the Great Houses.  But then again there were numerous SLDF commissioned manufacturing programs that were located within the borders of the Great Houses.  I would say that the SLDF did get a good portion of it's equipment from factories in the Great Houses.

I'm not saying it didn't. I fully agree with the assessment that the SLDF used material produced by the Houses. Interstellar Logistics 101 - use locally produced material when possible.

What I'm suggesting is that we differentiate between the type of equipment used and produced, the amounts used and when they were used. I also want to differentiate between "equipment" and the word "material," with "material" standing for replacement parts, ammunition, etc. and "equipment" standing for finished pieces of, well...equipment - like 'Mechs, Tanks, Fighters, and so on.  

Meaning, for arguments sake lets say that SLDF units deployed in the Hegemony were outfitted 100% with Hegemony-produced equipment and material regardless of unit type. And make no mistake, they would be. These units were sitting right in the heart of the SLDF's largest producer and stronghold. There would be zero reason to import.  

However, I fully expect units deployed in Regions 2 & 3 inside the Houses to have a different equipment/material split depending on the unit type. So where a Royal Division garrisoning a string of planets in the Federated Suns Region 3 will have most of its equipment coming from the Hegemony, a great deal of the division's necessary "material" may in fact be coming from locally produced sources in the Federated Suns. I mean, outside of a Headhunter Missile, I'm fairly certain the SLDF wouldn't mind using FedSuns-produced LRMs, even with their Royal units. Not only does it cut down on the cost, but it simplifies logistics and resupply time. And besides, the FedSuns is a member-state after all, shouldn't it help out the SLDF a little.  

Now Regular Army units garrisoning the Great Houses may have an entirely different percentage split, since their technology requirements are a little less strict than their Royal brethren. A Regular Army division may receive a fair percentage of its equipment from locally  produced sources. Not all mind you, because the Star League economy was still very dependent on the Terran Hegemony being the largest producer in the Inner Sphere, but definitely some.

Which ties into this...

I guess that depends on how much the SLDF spread out it's production to reduce shipping/logistical issues- i.e. maybe the Mountain Wolf factory in the OA provided Night Hawk 'Mechs for SLDF regiments in the DC/OA/FC area while the Vendrell plant supplied those in the RWR/LC and FWL.  Another thing to consider is the Cyrano entry in TR3050U which implies the Cyrano was developed and built by the New Vandenberg factory and the SLDF became the primary purchaser of the design. 

I think we're talking about the same thing, but I'm not sure.

However, this statement also brings me back to the differentiation bit.

I think for this discussion, timing is super important to take into account. I mean we're dealing with technically three distinct "stages" or periods of time. First we have the SLDF pre-Periphery Uprising. Second we have the SLDF during the Uprising and finally the SLDF during the Coup.

During each stage the SLDF requires and uses differing amounts of equipment and material, as well as receiving most of said goods from different primary sources, with primary being the operative word. So lets take each one in turn. I'll over simplify a little to save space.

Prior to the Uprising, the SLDF is more or less stagnant. Their equipment/material usage and/or requirements (as a whole) is consistent. Their "peace time" logistics are firmly in place and their general deployment follows their peace time garrisons. The SLDF is receiving its materials/equipment from "normal" sources, (that percentage split I was talking about earlier) which are produced and stockpiled at peace time speed and in peace time locations. In my opinion this is the period when the Great Houses are upgrading their militaries in earnest and have the excess materials/equipment production to do so.  

However, during the Periphery Uprising the situation changes. This is perhaps the most complicated of the three periods to decipher because as a transitional period it also splits down the center as benefit from the surprising inclusion of 50 'Mech Divisions. Also, the Periphery Uprising is the shortest period at only 1-2 years in length.  

During the Periphery Uprising we have a large portion of the SLDF on the move and heading into combat. Equipment/Material usage is on the rise, but initially IMO is nothing to worry about since we're only seeing SLDF units in Regions 2 & 3 moving into the Periphery. And here's the rub. During the first months of the Periphery Uprising, I don't think the SLDF was super hungry for any and all material being produced by the Houses even then.

I mean, prior to the Periphery Divisions hitting the SLDF en-masse it's clear that the SLDF hadn't turned the supply machine to full speed or was committed to another RW-type fight by stockpiling supplies because many of the SLDF units in the Periphery, when cut off, didn't have the supplies to withstand the siege and to wait for relief. (Again, another reason that leads me to believe that the SLDF wasn't buying everything at the time.) I mean, the SLDF was technically fighting separatists armed with slug throwers and conventional vehicles. Kerensky had no way of knowing that 50 'Mech Divisions were just across the horizon. I think his deployment of the SLDF's stores reflects that.

A massive increase in equipment and materials for the SLDF to the point where the House armies can no longer upgrade because they are supplying the SLDF seems a bit excessive this early in the campaign and probably wasn't approached for political reasons as much as physical ones.  

On a side note, sadly, I personally think that had the Amaris Coup not occurred the Periphery Rebellion would have turned into a RW-type fight and we would have seen an immediate and sharp decline in House army growth as most of their production would have been turned towards supplying the SLDF. However, the suddenness of the Amaris Coup nips this possibility before it could develop.

However, I also believe the conversion and decline (in the LC, FS & CC since they DID supply the SLDF with materials during the Liberation) occurs nevertheless in some of the Great Houses thanks to the Amaris Coup, but (again) sadly, not across all of the Houses.

The final third period of the Amaris Coup is basically support for my assumptions of the first two. When the Amaris Coup erupts you can extrapolate from the conquest of the Rim Worlds and from what the Houses supplied to the SLDF during the liberation the idea that the SLDF was wholly unprepared for the full extent of the Periphery Uprising. If the SLDF had been prepared for 50 'Mech Divisions or a RW-type conquest of the Periphery it would have been in a far better position to liberate the Hegemony and may have been able to liberate it sooner.

So working backwards, if we take into account how unprepared the SLDF was to liberate the Hegemony you can see the picture forming - the SLDF's equipment/material usage prior to the Amaris Coup should not have significantly impacted the Houses' ability to upgrade or expand their armies.