OBT Forum
General BattleTech => General Discussion => MechFactory => Topic started by: fabulousorcboy on July 25, 2021, 09:58:19 AM
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Just asking for a friend 8) but the 80-ton bipedal Assault Mechs are all very similar -- and the 85t, 90t, and 95t 'Mechs are all quite similar as well. I think here it might be helpful if Takiro had some clear ideas for how these 'Mechs differentiate, otherwise it's just different manufacturers putting out the "same" 'Mech, but with a different make and model. You know, like every type of nearly identical 2020 white crossover put out by BMW, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Audi, Saab, GM, etc.
I agree that three of the 80-ton humanoid 'Mechs (that are not the Goliath) have some design trends, but one of them very clearly does not:
The Awesome has the Battlefist/LA quirk, and generally packs PPCs, but also LRMs and Large Lasers in canon designs. It is typically a 3/5 or 4/6 design with lots of armor and long-ranged support fire...except when it's a mixed-weapon brawler with an LRM only to keep opponents honest.
The Charger has the Barrelfist/LA and Easy-to-Maintain quirks, and Bad Reputation (the Hatamoto subs that last one for Modular torso SRMs) -- not including the ridiculous "Scout Assault" idea --and comes in every flavor of refit. AC20s, SRMs, LRMs, Large and Medium lasers, you name it. There are 3/5 and 4/6 varieties, with or without jumpjets, and that's not even considering every kind of Hatamoto under the sun. (Chi, Godai, Hi, Kaeru, Kaze, Ku, Mizo/Mizu, Suna). Generally, if you can think of a weapons system or combination, the Hatamoto series has tried it at some point.
The Victor has the Rugged/1 quirk, and generally has one BFG, either an AC-20 of some kind or a Gauss, and some short ranged supporting weapons. And jumpjets, always jumpjets. Of the four 80-tonners here, it has the clearest design aesthetic.
The Zeus has the Barrelfist/RA and Easy-to-Maintain quirks, and typically features a mix of autocannons/gauss, missiles, and lasers, but can have just two of the above, or more short-range gear. It's more of a brawler than the Awesome. Except when it isn't.
The challenge is even greater for Battlemaster (85t), Stalker (85t), Cyclops (90t), and Banshee (95t), which all are 3/5 or 4/6 machines that, in canon, carry every type of weapons system under the sun. Here at least the quirks are different enough (except for the Banshee) that they can lean into their various strengths, but again -- they're 3053-era Inner Sphere assault 'Mechs, which all end up looking like damage sponges and gunboats.
So what's the brief? What should these different machines be looking like in the Salient Horizon universe? Or can I just submit the same 'Mech, only altering the fluff from Awesome to Charger to Victor to Zeus?
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Since we have a week to go on the Orion contest I will not comment officially till at least August on this productive conversation. Your comments are very welcomed as we will soon be headed into Assault territory. I'm always opened to ideas and I don't want to cut off creativity.
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One way to look at the assault-weight 'Mechs is that--at their core--the 4/6/x ones are really just oversized Heavy-weight 'Mechs. Now, for the most part, the canon designs do not take advantage of that (i.e., maxing out (or nearly maxing out) the armor protection) to make them tougher and more robust.
But, at the center of it all, the 4/6/x designs are just heavies that sacrifice a few guns for increased durability.
Or, rather, they should be.
The key is to (and I have said this before) keep the "feel" of the 'Mech. Cater to its spirit and its purpose so that someone, if handed a record sheet with no name at the top would still go, "Oh, that's an upgraded Zeus (or Victor or Goliath) instead of asking, "What is this?"
And it is possible, even with standard engines. The Zeus, for example, has the potential for being an excellent cavalry 'Mech (well, in terms of the Succession Wars, not Clan Invasion!). It already has a good assortment of guns (and some variants get better), just needs more cooling and armor. Speed is fine. You give these 'Mechs (and the 85-ton Battlemaster, 90-ton Cyclops, and 95-ton Banshee) armor better than that of an Orion and you really can't go far wrong (even if the Banshee will have the guns of a medium-weight design, it can take a BEATING and still keep on coming if you increase the armor to nearly full--AND if it gets close enough to land a few punches or kicks, you are gonna be hurting!).
The biggest problem of 3050+ era Assault 'Mechs (Inner Sphere Assault 'Mechs) is finding enough crit slots for the DHS that they will need. That is easier on a 4/6 design than a 3/5 (or God forbid, a 2/3!). It is also why I try to stay away from XL engines on the BBBs (BIG BAD BOYS) because they need to be robust and stay in the fight. And absent a lucky crit roll or an AC-20 to the cockpit, they will. IF they are designed right.
Think high-end medium or low-end heavy that can keep going and going and going. That is your 4/6 Assault 'Mech.
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masterarminas, I think you're saying the same thing in a different way.
I agree that pre Light Fusion engines, the Assault class 'Mechs have two choices:
(a) they can stick with standard engines and max out armor protection in order to be damage sponges, but will sacrifice either speed or firepower in the process.
(b) they can become high-firepower gunboats with XL engines (potentially gaining engine slots for heat sinks) but become much more vulnerable to side torso kills, in doing so.
I think that against the Clans, option (a) is probably the better bet, and that the difference between a 3/5 and a 4/6 is negligible when facing 5/8 and faster Clan opponents. Option (b) just makes you an easy, high-value kill against Clan weapons and opponents... again, until Light engines come along.
But that said, you can make some interesting niche Assault 'Mechs with XL engines, particularly if you're not planning to be a brawler.
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My bigger point is this: what makes an Awesome an "Awesome"? Same with a Zeus and Charger/Hatamoto. Like I pointed out, the existing, canon weapons mixes on these 'Mechs is pretty varied, although if you squint there are a few trends (no autocannons on Awesomes, for example, and a Zeus uuuuusually has missiles and uuuuusually stays at 4/6 speed). The Victor at least has a pretty clear profile: jumper with a BFG and some other stuff. The others? Given that their quirks are pretty similar, it seems like major differences are:
(a) The Awesome is the Free Worlds League's 80t assault 'Mech.
(b) The Charger/Hatamoto is the Draconis Combine's 80t assault 'Mech (plus the Outworlds Alliance because why not)
(c) The Victor is the FedCom/Davion 80t assault 'Mech, plus the Combine and St Ives Compact got invited to the party, too!
(d) The Zeus is the FedCom/Steiner 80t assault 'Mech
And yes, the League and FedCom/Davions get Goliaths, but they're four-legged 'Mechs, which everyone hates in the 3050s because everyone thinks they suck, because everyone in techno-feudal space opera wants to be the knight and no-one wants to be the horse.
* The Capellans don't get an 80t assault Mech. Because they're the whipping boy of the setting.
* ComStar is making new toys or recycling old SLDF assault 'Mechs, so mostly aren't relevant to this optimization activity.
* None of the Periphery or minor powers (excepting the Outworlds Alliance and St Ives Compact) manufactures...or can afford to maintain a bunch of... assault 'Mechs. They're just not useful in small scale skirmishes, or against conventional vehicle/infantry forces, etc. So this makes the scope of the fluff pretty narrow as well.
This is why I brought up the example of white crossovers. Every car company in the world makes them nowadays. They're all roughly interchangeable. I'm sure a car otaku could explain the differences between an 2020 white Audi crossover from a 2020 white Mazda crossover from a 2020 white Ford crossover, but... see my point? The fluff and rules-sets (and wide array of canon variants) strongly suggest that the Awesome, Charger/Hatamoto, Victor, and Zeus are pretty much House-specific variations of the same 80t assault chassis, although the Victor at least has a fairly clear aesthetic.
You can continue the logic, although with the remaining heavier Assaults, there are quirks that can help specialize what they do:
The Combine has the Battlemaster (85t) and Atlas (100t)
The FedCom has the Battlemaster (85t), Stalker (85t), Banshee (95t), and Atlas (100t)
The League has the Stalker (85t) and that's it
The Capellans have bupkis, although they used to make Battlemasters before the 4th Succession War (85t).
Tiny Rasalhague is the only one still making the Cyclops (90t), really rubbing it into the Capellans.
SFAIK, only a few minor powers manufacture assault 'Mechs, and really can't practically afford to use or maintain them in any number anyway. Again, kind of limited fluff potential here.
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It's the mission that each design fulfills. The Zeus is the trooper Mech. The Awesome is the long-range support, both direct and indirect, depending on the variant. The Victor, originally, was the brawler with its AC/20, but changed when the Gauss came along. The Charger was designed as a heavy scout, but failed at the mission due to the use that huge engine. Charger variants tend to fill multiple roles depending configuration. All of them weigh the same, but they all have different uses. Just like the 85-tonners do.
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It's the mission that each design fulfills. ... All of them weigh the same, but they all have different uses.
Okay, that's a nice idea, but it's a bit post-hoc and there are canon variants that disprove the point. If it was ever true, it was only true back during the age of the SLDF, when the Star League would drop billions of Star League Dollars on hyper-specialized designs and keep them around for centuries with regular upgrades. It's definitely not true after centuries of Succession Wars.
* For example, the Zeus is a trooper... except for the ZEU-6A and 6Y which are brawlers, and the 6T which is more fire-support.
* And the Awesome is fire-support... except for the AWS-8V, which is basically a Zeus-type trooper
* And you yourself point out that the Victor is a brawler... until it isn't when Gauss Rifles return to production.
...and I've just restricted myself to canon production designs from 3053 and earlier! If you include customm rides, the Second Star League era, the FedCom Civil War, the Jihad, and the Republic Era, the distinction between the different 80t 'Mechs gets blurred even more.
So it really seems like each house has one 80t (humanoid) assault 'Mech chassis, and they modify it as necessary to fit the different roles they need, especially after the Succession Wars (more or less) end and they have more stable economies and better technologies. You know, like the Combine does with the Charger/Hatamoto, only the Combine actually changes the name as well as the model number whenever they do so (and those names vaguely have Taoist 'five rings' themes for each of the variations).
And I'm not upset with that! It's a very practical in-universe solution to having only one 80-ton humanoid chassis in your star empire, and needing it to fill many roles. You know, like having an Omni'Mech, only without actually bothering to invest whole-heartedly in Omni technology because your entrenched armaments industries oppose the technology so aggressively :p
BUT -- notice that for the purpose of this optimization activity, you then end up with four "different" 80t 'Mechs that all end up looking very similar, and doing the same thing. They even have almost the same quirks, which means they don't even have strong built-in tendencies to be designed in one way or another...!
Which is why I'm asking Takiro to give a bit of guidance here. If this is going to be an eight-week activity (four 80t humanoid 'Mechs, two weeks each), then how do you keep things from getting basically identical? This strikes me as similar to the Stinger/Wasp issues at the very start of this optimization activity -- the two 'Mechs are effectively interchangeable, and the designs people submitted all looked quite similar. The winning designs all looked quite similar, as well!
The difference with the 80-tonners is that they have very few manufacturers and are very clearly tied to specific Great Houses. So should I just submit the same designs but with different fluff each time (= not that hard, because there's only a few manufacturers of each assault 'Mech, and they all have access to the same basic equipment in 3053)?
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On a related note, because I have no real issues with the Goliath (it's a quad, so the design is going to have to be different from humanoid 'Mechs because of a lack of crit space), I have two questions for Takiro:
(a) If you haven't decided what your design goals are with the four 80t humanoid 'Mechs yet, can we start with the Goliath instead of the Awesome?
(b) And are Quad turrets legal for purposes of this activity? I don't remember if this came up with the Scorpion and/or what the answer might have been.
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I will have something to say after the Orion contest closes out on Saturday. ;)
Excellent conversation you guys are having here, please keep going. Love to hear what everyone thinks!
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My design process is to usually look at the 3025 hard copy version for the feel of the design. Then I look at what variants have come about since then on Sarna seeing what the feel for those were. Then I try and improve existing ones or look for ones that might be popular with a Power and see if can feasibly get them to design one with their own flair.
I agree there has been a lot of duplication of ideas within designs as well as tonnage categories. If this was a larger contest I think more judges may have helped as I think things like Heat Neutrality are over judged and we've come to understand what Tak likes in his designs so tend to build with those as thoughts. I think Cost/BV is sometimes under looked
I feel like if I was to do something like this contest myself I'd have done it as a like contractors submitting bids. Us sending them to Tak via message or email. Then Tak posting the winner(s) and then posting all contest entrances after the fact.
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I feel like if I was to do something like this contest myself I'd have done it as a like contractors submitting bids. Us sending them to Tak via message or email. Then Tak posting the winner(s) and then posting all contest entrances after the fact.
We could try something like that I suppose but I don't see how that would help anyone honestly. What do you guys think?
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Perhaps if we do 3026 tro
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My design process is to usually look at the 3025 hard copy version for the feel of the design. Then I look at what variants have come about since then on Sarna seeing what the feel for those were. Then I try and improve existing ones or look for ones that might be popular with a Power and see if can feasibly get them to design one with their own flair.
I agree there has been a lot of duplication of ideas within designs as well as tonnage categories. If this was a larger contest I think more judges may have helped as I think things like Heat Neutrality are over judged and we've come to understand what Tak likes in his designs so tend to build with those as thoughts. I think Cost/BV is sometimes under looked.
I do agree with your methodology.
Regarding Takiro, apart from looking a little more at Blazer or keeping some specifics for Ffavour, I don't take him into account. l just go with something différent and in line with the fluff.
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Looking forward till tomorrow when I can get specific with my comments. ;)
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Well here we are at the assault BattleMechs of the InnerSphere and in particular we have arrived at the 80 tonners. This weight class is unique among the Assaults as you can reach the 5/8 level one final time giving you three ground speed possibilities before we consider Jumping. So if I was to begin with any unique factor it would be right there. Then weaponry follows as each Mech has its own unique flair with the Awesome being a PPC carrier for example. Of course national and even regional usage has a big factor to play as well but don't forget who these designs are aimed at either. Usually the big bad is the Clans at this time so is there a niche that these machines can fill against the almost impossible to defeat invaders? But not always as Periphery nations are just trying to keep up with their limited means as well against the InnerSphere. These rugged machines mirror the Capellan Confederation, certain important regions, and mercenaries who desire cheap reliable designs which may use older technology in conjunction with lostech to level the playing fields. I really see a lot of opportunity here as the tonnage increases.
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ABELE: No entries for me this round as I've pulled my two posts due to lack of fluff a bit earlier. I'm just finding it harder to come up with something original besides the boring 'tech swap' type-posts I've been writing lately. I think there will be few entries from from here on out. Boredom with the inner sphere designs with way too much repetitive effort on my part. With about a nine or so designs left, this part of the contest won't be over another four to five months or so and judging is even further behind as Takiro (who I know is probably a busy man) has just finished up the 50-tonners. It's hard for me to remain engaged or excited. Now, I go back to watching the impressively boring Olympics coverage by NBC.
BRADSHAW: Yeah looking back I have very few entries for judgements in the next 20 tons of competitions. Either no ideas or to many other similar ones available
Takiro, I'm thinking you're much more optimistic about this than some of the designers. ;D
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Ugh, I know! So fatalistic. We finally get to the big boyz of the universe which I've been looking forward to since the start of the whole Optimization Contests (some 45 challenges ago) and many designers are so glum. Your about to play with the most tonnage around for weapons and armor. Sure maybe they aren't the fastest war machines around but Lyrans sure think they are the best! Don't get me wrong there are some big obstacles that come with all of this weight of responsibility but that is part of the fun to me.
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Meant in the 55 to 75 ton ranges. I have a one or two for the 80 ton range And one each for next ton categories. But I feel a lot of similarities will be seen from us all.
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TAKIRO: Your about to play with the most tonnage around for weapons and armor. Sure maybe they aren't the fastest war machines around but Lyrans sure think they are the best!
But most of that weight is an illusion.
For an 80-ton 'Mech, if you set it at 3/5 with a 240 standard engine, and max the armor, that gives you 39 tons, which is a lot, but many weapons systems aren't viable on a 3/5 'Mech. For example, you wouldn't make the thing a medium laser vomit build, because that's stupid. And you can't be a small laser/machinegun or SRM backstabber. You're dependent on ACs, large lasers, PPCs, LRMs, and Gauss Rifles, so your build options are going to be pretty limited.
For an 80-ton 'Mech, if you set it at 4/6 with a 320 standard engine, and max the armor, that gives you just 27 tons. That gives you only slightly more weight than...a 50t centurion moving at 4/6. Yes, you have more armor, but the weapons load-out is that of a medium or older (non-XL, 4/6 speed) heavy. And your weapons selections are still pretty limited.
If you use an Inner Sphere XL engine, you're making your assault 'Mech an easy side torso kill. We'll still design a few of those here, I'm sure, but still. And if you don't max the armor, you're again making your assault 'Mech an easy kill. So the design requirements eat up a large chunk of the weight, the low speed limits the weapons systems that are viable.
The Lyrans pre-Clans used lots of Assaults because (in canon) they have more money than sense, and they relied on lots and lots of armor to out-attrition the opponent. But a "Lyran Scout Lance" is not an object of fear or respect, it's a joke about wasted resources. Don't get me wrong, I love me some assault 'Mechs, and threw together some ideas already.... but until we're using Clan technology or light engines, the sorts of 'Mechs you can design with 3053 level 2 tech is going to end up with lots of very "samey" designs.
For example, I created over a dozen Marauder/Orion 75t variants, and about two dozen Warhammer/Archer/Grasshopper 70t variants. But I can't come up with a lot of distinctive 80t variants that (a) are really distinct, (b) are 3053 level-2 technology, and (c) haven't already been created in canon.
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If you use an Inner Sphere XL engine, you're making your assault 'Mech an easy side torso kill. We'll still design a few of those here, I'm sure, but still. And if you don't max the armor, you're again making your assault 'Mech an easy kill. So the design requirements eat up a large chunk of the weight, the low speed limits the weapons systems that are viable.
I think this is the big question of these contests now. To XL or not to XL? EndoSteel if available gives you a pretty good return on weight in comparison to all but the largest XL Engines. 14 criticals to 6 but you won't auto shutdown.
I was thinking about imposing some speed floors or ceilings on the 80 tonners cause that is where they are most different IMO but the Awesome for example is an energy boat (some times armed with missiles) which is usually slow 3/5 or 4/6 but call me crazy I could see a 5/8 (400XL) entry which tries to go all in on lasers to create a fast striking brawler. That way you can do 16 Double Heat Sinks without missing a beat or spending criticals. Personally I love the 9Q and that one which could be advanced will be tough for anyone to beat but hey that is why we have the contests.
The Charger I see as the speed demon of the 80s with a minimum speed of 4/6 being considered by me although I believe it was Ice who made a nasty AC/20 variant that was at that minimum. Let me say also a good story like Ice Hellion did on the Charger could see the Capellans who are in search of an Assault Mech turn to something in this direction.
The Goliath will probably benefit the most from these challenges because folks will be able to create true Quads.
The Victor is mobile with jump jets sometimes and is the soldier Assault Mech perhaps being the most available.
The Zeus (which seldom has an ER PPC, WTF?) has a little bit of everything weaponry wise and isn't all that fast.
I know I have an Atlas variant I am anxious to get out there but that is down the road. ;)
And lastly I will suggest again work together on concepts, I encourage it. If you feel that opportunities are limited then get together with another designer to bonus ideas off each other and make the most of your joint entries. I think you'd be much better off.
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The Charger I see as the speed demon of the 80s with a minimum speed of 4/6 being considered by me although I believe it was Ice who made a nasty AC/20 variant that was at that minimum. Let me say also a good story like Ice Hellion did on the Charger could see the Capellans who are in search of an Assault Mech turn to something in this direction.
;D