OBT Forum
General BattleTech => General Discussion => MechFactory => Topic started by: Takiro on October 31, 2010, 10:48:19 PM
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Years ago I developed some BattleMechs based on existing designs from TRO3025 that mounted Internal Combustion Engines rather than standard Fusion Power Plant. The rules for these Low Tech ‘Mechs can be found in Explorer Corps (FASA 1681) on pages 78 – 80. With the release of TRO 3075 and the introduction of RetroTech which isn’t quite the same as this idea I wanted to post this. What I’d like do here is to share my thoughts and get your input on a few potential settings where such a Project could be beneficial. Maybe even design a few of these bad boyz with ya all. Here are some of the drawbacks and benefits as I see them for ICE Mechs.
Low Manuverability. Two big problems ICE Mechs have to overcome is the fact that ICE rated engines weigh twice as much as their identical fusion counterparts and Jump Jets can not be mounted on ICE equipped ‘Mechs. Because of the large difference between power to weight ratio for internal combustion engines when compared to even a normal fusion engines, ICE BattleMechs tend to be slower than those equipped with fusion engines. A good rule of thumb I found for standard movement for weight classes is the following; Light - 6,9 / Medium - 4,6 / Heavy - 3,5 / Assault - 2,3.
No Integral Heat Sinks. Since internal combustion engine equipped BattleMechs come with no free heat sinks 2 or 3 tons must be preserved for heat sinks right at the start of construction to dissipate heat created by movement. Additional heat sinks must be added for weaponry also.
Power Amplifiers. If your going to equip your ICE Mech with energy weapons you’ll need to include amplifiers which takes up 1 ton of weight per 10 tons of energy weapons. As a result of this and the fact that such Mechs come with no integral heat sinks ballistic and missile weaponry is likely preferred.
Lower Survivability. The fact that ICE Mechs by their very nature are more apt to explode than their higher tech brethren is another drawback. When critical damage is taken to the engine there is a chance that a catastrophic explosion will occur. Since these Mechs prefer ammunition based weaponry by their very nature which also explodes when hit such dangers can not be under estimated.
Low Versatility. ICE Mechs have certain atmospheric limitations which prevents their usage in exotic venues. This really hampers their deployment off world which has to be taken into account. However such Mechs would be used primarily in a defensive role on their home planet relegating this issue to the least of your worries.
Low Price. On the positive side, finally I have something good to say about ICE Mechs, compared to the price of normal Fusion Engines (5,000 x Rating x Tonnage)/ 75 the ICE costs (1,250 x Rating x Tonnage)/ 75. Of course we will have to see if the savings is worth it.
Ease of Construction. Lower tech materials are much more readily available and could produced in a variety of different places. Existing industry may already be sufficient to facilitate the construction of these lower tech Mechs enabling a great build up of these machines. Quantity over quality. Creation of a series of uniform designs for this project based on existing ‘Mechs could enhance defense especially on a local level.
So now for an example, Atlas AS7-D costs 9,626,000
Gargantua
Design Basis: Atlas AS7-D (9,626,000 C-bills)
Weight Displacement: 100 tons (5,466,666 C-bills)
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 10
Engine: 200 ICE 17
Walking MP: 2
Running MP: 3
Power Amplifiers: .5
Heat Sinks: 17 17
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 304 19
Weapons and Ammo: Location Critical
AC/20 Right Torso 10 14
Ammo (AC/20) 10 Right Torso 2 2
LRM 20 Left Torso 5 10
Ammo (LRM) 12 Left Torso 2 2
Medium Laser Right Arm 1 1
Medium Laser Left Arm 1 1
Medium Laser Center Torso 1 1
Small Laser Center Torso 1 .5
Jupiter
Design Basis: Zeus
Weight Displacement: 80 tons
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 8
Engine: 240 ICE 23
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Power Amplifiers: .5
Heat Sinks: 9 9
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 184 11.5
Weapons and Ammo: Location Critical
Large Laser Left Torso 2 5
LRM 15 Right Arm 3 7
Ammo (LRM) 8 Right Torso 1 1
AC/5 Left Arm 4 8
Ammo (AC) 20 Left Arm 8 1
So what do you think? Would such a project be worth it? And if so for whom? A Periphery nation? The Federated Commonwealth in response to the Clan invasion? The Terran Republic in our BTSD setting? Someone else? Let me know!
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Likley those out on the deep fringe would be the users of such machines. I can't really see the IS building ICE Mechs, not unless the 3rd War went the way of the first two.
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I agree with Black Nova- if you can build mechs, then you are going to build mechs- on the other hand I could see a lot of rebels converting work mechs to "battlemechs"
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Well let me say the Clans are automatically eliminated from the ICE Mech discussion as they are philosophically opposed to such developments and I would not argue the point.
I was batting the idea around for the Federated Commonwealth in my Clarion Call novel/universe. Essentially building up new industries on many more worlds adding to the strength of the AFFC or more aptly their Planetary Militias. However I'm inclined to agree with both Irose and Blacknova. Their energies could be directed elsewhere with more worthwhile returns.
For the same reasons the Terran Republic ala BTSD doesn't really work either. However might the Rim Protectorate in the same setting be an ideal place for ICE Mechs. With much of their advanced infrastructure displaced by Project Phoenix could low tech solutions be the answer? How about the Marian Hegemony say in the 3050s? Their lack of advanced industry (shortage of fusion engines) may make them another ideal candidate for these machines. It seems like the Periphery is probably the best spot for these backward innovations.
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One other thing I meant to mention was the logistical tail this would add to the Mech units. The versitility of a SFE Mech and its endurance are far superior to that of an ICE unit. There is also the life time cost to consider. The ICE fule would eventually top the life price of the SFE if the machine hung around for a while, so long term costs would be another issue to consider.
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Hi to all. Nueva Castile and the Chainelane Isles would benefit the most from such mechs.
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Black Nova has got a good point: what logistics would be needed to keep these 'Mechs operative?
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I would imagine that the logistics would be much less sophisticated than fusion engines. However the maintenance needs might be higher on these low tech motors. It is interesting to think about. I wonder why no fuel tank or usage was ever determined for these Mechs.
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I would imagine that the logistics would be much less sophisticated than fusion engines. However the maintenance needs might be higher on these low tech motors. It is interesting to think about. I wonder why no fuel tank or usage was ever determined for these Mechs.
Not sure about that since fusion works forever whereas ICE engines need fuel that you need to find.
For maintenance, I think an ICE engine is easier to maintain than a fusion one.
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Good topics don't fade away, they just come back a decade later! Work on Project Hercules which began with a certain someone's Project 3000 has inspired me. Comments and concepts are welcomed!
Pilum
Design Basis: Javelin
Weight Displacement: 30 tons ( C-bills)
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 3
Engine: 90 ICE 6
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Power Amplifiers: 0
Heat Sinks: 6 6
Gyro: 1
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 96 6
Weapons and Ammo: Location Critical
LRM-5 Right Torso 1 2
LRM-5 Left Torso 1 2
Ammo (LRM) 24 Right Torso 1 1
Gnat
Design Basis: Locust
Weight Displacement: 20 tons ( C-bills)
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 2
Engine: 100 ICE 6
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Power Amplifiers: 0
Heat Sinks: 2 2
Gyro: 1
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 64 4
Weapons and Ammo: Location Critical
Machine Gun Right Arm 1 .5
Machine Gun Left Arm 1 .5
Machine Gun Center Torso 1 .5
Ammo (Machine Guns) 100 Center Torso 1 .5
Initial research showed that ICE equipped BattleMechs would be slower than their Fusion equipped brethren but as overall design mass dropped the impact became more drastic. With power plants weighing double their high-tech cousins and less tonnage for their incorporation available speeds were further reduced. Heat generated by movement and weapon fire also became more problematic to resolve given that these primitive war machines lacked integral heat sinks. This consumed even more space and obstructed room previously allocated for weaponry.
Attempts to engineer lower tech versions of the Locust (dubbed the Gnat) and the Javelin (named the Pilum by Marian designers) ran headlong into these obstacles. Engineers soon found that even their presumed minus one method in regards to overall speed of ICE Mechs was widely optimistic when it came to Light BattleMechs. Further reductions became apparent if either design was to become even practical on the battlefield. Ultimately this required the use of a 90 and 100 rated Internal Combustion Engine on both machines which had the extra benefit of reducing gyro size.
The Gnat thankfully maintained some speed and was able to utilize Machine Guns in order to compose its arsenal which mitigated heat buildup. While much shorter ranged than the LCT-1V and only able to match its cruising speed at maximum output it is a menacing presence to infantry on the battlefield. It also matches the armor protection of its forebearer which is near maximum for its chassis size. Being able to use identical time-tested components from the Locust also eased production which was surprisingly swift. The final result was a cheap war machine that could rapidly
Things did not go as smoothly on the Pilum however which required several redesigns thanks in large part to the engine and its weapons. Speed as a result dropped to half and without jump jets designers became extremely concerned the entire concept could work at all. Even more troubling was the heat output of the SRMs used by the Javelin which would require more heat sinks that threatened to put the thirty-ton Mech overweight. It was discovered that switching to LRMs was less taxing on the design and made sense given its low speed.
The Gnat and the Pilum work well in concert with each other as they are often deployed together. The Pilum will shower opposition with LRM with a Gnat racing within its minimum range to finish off any close quarters’ competition.
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Jump Jets can not be mounted on ICE equipped ‘Mechs.
What about the Mechanical Jump Booster?
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Mechanical Jump Booster - BattleTechWiki
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mechanical_Jump_Booster
Not available at this time
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Mechanical Jump Booster - BattleTechWiki
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mechanical_Jump_Booster
Not available at this time
I know but you are in an AU :P
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Yes it is but they seem too advanced for the moment and given the huge weight of ICE power plants could unbalance the whole thing. Folks could simply minimize the engine size and max their jump boosters for a leaping good time.
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both the Gnat and the Pilum, would make great lances for planets that need protection but could not handle or get regular mechs, I could see numbers of these in the Outback of the Federated Suns!!!
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I'd have agree that these Low-Tech Mechs will proliferate the entire InnerSphere eventually. The Outback is a good candidate candidate for sure but so is the Draconis March. Plus they can get a little more sophisticated with Fuel Cell Engines.
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Warrior
Design Basis: Commando
Weight Displacement: 25 tons
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 2.5
Engine: 100 ICE 6
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Power Amplifiers: 0
Heat Sinks: 5 5
Gyro: 1
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 72 4.5
Weapons and Ammo: Location Criticals
SRM-4 CT 1 2
Ammo (SRM) 25 CT 1 1
Replicating the Commando as a 'RetroMech' armed with SRMs made sense with the Gnat and Pilum designs already in place. Using a 100 ICE, like the Gnat, allowed it to reach the cruising speed of its forbearer at maximum acceleration and made possible the use of a one ton gyroscope. An SRM-4 located in the center torso with a single ton of amination was the Mech's sole weapon which was cooled by five Heat Sinks. The Warrior has a half ton more armor protection than the Commando which makes for slightly better protective characteristics.
A Warrior working with the Pilum and the Gnat can be most effective as each ICE Mech can support the other. Their different weapons and speeds are complementary which allow them to work in concert as a team.
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I am looking for a Light Command Mech (which could possibly be a medium) to finish off the auxiliary lance with the Gnat, Warrior, and Pilum. If you have ideas for conversions of existing canon designs (TRO 3025) to ICE Mechs I'd love to see them. Plus if you think you can do better please fire away!
ICE Mechs are a bit different from canon RetroTech which seems to have gone away from lower grade engines (ICE, Fuel Cell, Fission) which I've really embraced here. Canon often uses 'Primitive' armor, cockpit, and engines (which still seem to be fusion but not optimal rated engines) which is a bit different from the plan here. Discussion is welcome on those differences as well.
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No Integral Heat Sinks. Since internal combustion engine equipped BattleMechs come with no free heat sinks 2 or 3 tons must be preserved for heat sinks right at the start of construction to dissipate heat created by movement. Additional heat sinks must be added for weaponry also.
True but why would they generate heat for moving? If you look at the rules for Industrial 'Mechs, this is not the case and unlike vehicles, they don't need to cool all the heat generated by their energy weapons (this is how I read the examples for Industrial 'Mechs).
For me, the rules in Explorer Corps aren't in conflict with that.
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And following my interpretation, I give you the Hoplomachus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoplomachus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoplomachus))
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I didn't fluff it and just wrote down the stats for a 'Mech for your auxiliary lance (based on the Swordsman, hence the Latin/Greek name).
Hoplomachus
Mass: 40 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Advanced Rules
Era: Age of War/Star League
Tech Rating/Era Availability: D/C-C-D-A
Production Year: 2750
Dry Cost: 1 963 360 C-Bills
Total Cost: 2 002 860 C-Bills
Battle Value: 670
Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 120 I.C.E.
Walking Speed: 32,4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54,0 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
1 Autocannon/5
1 LRM-5
2 Machine Guns
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
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Internal Structure: Standard 67 points 4,00
Engine: I.C.E. Engine 120 8,00
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Single Heat Sink 0 0,00
Gyro: Standard 2,00
Cockpit: Standard 3,00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 136 8,50
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 12 17
Center Torso (rear) 6
L/R Torso 10 15
L/R Torso (rear) 5
L/R Arm 6 12
L/R Leg 10 20
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Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
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Autocannon/5 RT 1 4 8,00
LRM-5 LT 2 1 2,00
Machine Gun RA 0 1 0,50
Machine Gun LA 0 1 0,50
@AC/5 (40) RT - 2 2,00
@LRM-5 (24) LT - 1 1,00
@MG (1/2) (100) LT - 1 0,50
Free Critical Slots: 36
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 5 Points: 7
3 0 0 0 0 2 1 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: SRCH, EE, ES, SEAL, SOA
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Nice, I can see all four working together, perfectly dealing with most light threats with out problem!!
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No Integral Heat Sinks. Since internal combustion engine equipped BattleMechs come with no free heat sinks 2 or 3 tons must be preserved for heat sinks right at the start of construction to dissipate heat created by movement. Additional heat sinks must be added for weaponry also.
True but why would they generate heat for moving? If you look at the rules for Industrial 'Mechs, this is not the case and unlike vehicles, they don't need to cool all the heat generated by their energy weapons (this is how I read the examples for Industrial 'Mechs).
For me, the rules in Explorer Corps aren't in conflict with that.
The way I thought it was movement and weapon fire had to be accounted for??
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Hello folks, I did seek 'rule' clarification from the community at large over on the CBT Forums regarding our little question here. Glitterboy2098 knocked it out of the park with the quote below from Total War.
Total War, page 158
Fuel Cell and ICE-Powered IndustrialMechs: ICE-powered IndustrialMechs generate no heat from walking or running, a side effect of their engine and structural designs.
1. Weapon fire of any kind generates heat.
2. It is because of their engine and structural designs that ICE powered Industrials generate no movement heat.
Now because this is my homebrew creation which is different from canon the major wording I read there is structural. Since we will be designing Alternate Powered BattleMechs instead of armed IndustrialMechs with their structural differences I'd have to say that they do generate heat from movement.
I am opened to debate on this movement heat issue but I am afraid that I can't accept your ICE Swordsman with no Heat Sinks.
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Now because this is my homebrew creation which is different from canon the major wording I read there is structural. Since we will be designing Alternate Powered BattleMechs instead of armed IndustrialMechs with their structural differences I'd have to say that they do generate heat from movement.
I am opened to debate on this movement heat issue but I am afraid that I can't accept your ICE Swordsman with no Heat Sinks.
Your rules.
I reworked the Hoplomachus and make a second one too.
Hoplomachus
Mass: 40 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Advanced Rules
Era: Age of War/Star League
Tech Rating/Era Availability: D/C-C-D-A
Production Year: 2750
Dry Cost: 1 966 160 C-Bills
Total Cost: 2 001 160 C-Bills
Battle Value: 679
Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 120 I.C.E.
Walking Speed: 32,4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54,0 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
1 Autocannon/5
1 LRM-5
2 Machine Guns
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
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Internal Structure: Standard 67 points 4,00
Engine: I.C.E. Engine 120 8,00
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Single Heat Sink 1 1,00
Gyro: Standard 2,00
Cockpit: Standard 3,00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 136 8,50
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 12 17
Center Torso (rear) 6
L/R Torso 10 15
L/R Torso (rear) 5
L/R Arm 6 12
L/R Leg 10 20
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Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
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Autocannon/5 RT 1 4 8,00
LRM-5 LT 2 1 2,00
Machine Gun RA 0 1 0,50
Machine Gun LA 0 1 0,50
@AC/5 (20) RT - 1 1,00
@LRM-5 (24) LT - 1 1,00
@MG (1/2) (100) LT - 1 0,50
Free Critical Slots: 37
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 5 Points: 7
3 1 1 1 0 2 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: SRCH, EE, ES, SEAL, SOA
Hoplomachus 2
Mass: 40 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Advanced Rules
Era: Age of War/Star League
Tech Rating/Era Availability: D/C-D-D-A
Production Year: 2750
Dry Cost: 1 950 760 C-Bills
Total Cost: 1 982 260 C-Bills
Battle Value: 635
Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 120 I.C.E.
Walking Speed: 32,4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54,0 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
1 Medium Laser
1 LRM-5
1 Autocannon/2
1 Machine Gun
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
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Internal Structure: Standard 67 points 4,00
Engine: I.C.E. Engine 120 8,00
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Single Heat Sink 3 3,00
Gyro: Standard 2,00
Cockpit: Standard 3,00
Power Amplifiers: 0,50
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 120 7,50
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 12 18
Center Torso (rear) 5
L/R Torso 10 15
L/R Torso (rear) 4
L/R Arm 6 11
L/R Leg 10 14
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
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Autocannon/2 RT 1 1 6,00
LRM-5 LT 2 1 2,00
Medium Laser RA 3 1 1,00
Machine Gun LA 0 1 0,50
@AC/2 (45) RT - 1 1,00
@LRM-5 (24) LT - 1 1,00
@MG (1/2) (100) LT - 1 0,50
Free Critical Slots: 40
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 4 Points: 6
3 1 1 1 0 2 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: SRCH, EE, ES, SEAL, SOA
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I just looked over WorkMechs and they are very different from what I am proposing here. These are BattleMechs powered by Low Tech Engines which is certainly not canon. So this would be a unique creation to Salient Horizons begun by the Marian Hegemony with help coming from the Taurians under a paranoid Thomas and spurred by the Free Worlds League Civil War.
Ice has me questioning the zero heat principle at the moment which I may enforce. What are the effects of overheating an ICE (Fuel Cell or Fission) Mech after all? Another way it could go boom I think. Perhaps this is another reason why they should be designed on the zero heat principle of conventional vehicles (meaning you must carry as many Heat Sinks as heat you can generate).
I am also considering a lower movement heat for ICE and Fuel Cell equipped BattleMechs (1 for walking or running).
What do you guys think??
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Came up with two new 'RetroMechs' today based on 3025. Ice you'll no doubt see the similarities between my 40 tonner and yours. I designed mine on the 'zero heat principle' which is similar to conventional vehicles. I will probably require this going forward. Let me know what you guys think about the Outrider and the Overseer.
Outrider
Design Basis: Ostscout (or Spider)
Weight Displacement: 35 tons
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 3.5
Engine: 175 ICE 14
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Power Amplifiers: 0.5
Heat Sinks: 5 5
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 88 5.5
Weapons and Ammo: Location Criticals
Medium Laser CT 1 1
Remote Sensor Dispenser CT 1 .5
The Outrider is based on the Ostscout and manages to match the Gnat's high-end speed of eighty one kilometers per hour for RetroMechs. Protected by five and half tons of armor this unit can operate independently thanks to its Medium Laser. A small half-ton amplifer allows the 175 ICE power plant to ulitize this energy weapon. Five Heat Sinks cool the Outrider sufficiently which can also lay Remote Sensors to augment its vanguard duties.
Overseer
Design Basis: Clint (or Hermes II)
Weight Displacement: 40 tons
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 4
Engine: 160 ICE 12
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Power Amplifiers: 0
Heat Sinks: 3 3
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 112 7
Weapons and Ammo: Location Criticals
AC/5 RA 4 8
Ammo (AC) 20 RT 1 1
The Overseer RetroMech shares many characteristics with the Clint or Hermes II and often serves as the command unit of such auxiliary lances. Also serves as a lightweight medium sniper with max speeds matching the cruising speed of its more modern analogs. This is accomplished by using a 160 ICE to power the Mech which requires only a two ton gyroscope. The venerable Autocannon/5 placed in the right arm, much like the Clint, serves as the Overseer's main weapon. Three Heat Sinks disperse all waste heat generated by weapon fire and movement while seven tons of armor do a solid job protecting it in combat.
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I designed mine on the 'zero heat principle' which is similar to conventional vehicles.
Aren't vehicles supposed to cool down only from firing energy weapons?
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Yes but the principle still applies here with movement and all weapon fire.
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Yes but the principle still applies here with movement and all weapon fire.
When I played more often (90's) My friends and I would use mechs like this for low tech defense, and they added 1 crit more for non energy weapons to allow for cooling, you could try something like this???
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Interesting homebrew idea
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Okay gang, I've been doing a lot more of these designs for the Salient Horizon setting as well as analyzing the zero heat design principle and looking at all available weapons (Level 1) we can use at this time. This lead me to re-evaluate one of the first ICE designs I posted here long ago the Gargantua. While it can do 58 points of damage it is not a zero heat design so I redesigned it as the Gargantuan. It is zero heat and has a little more range even if it is only 52 points of damage at most. I envision this as a Taurian design which addresses somewhat their lack of assault designs. Which one do like the best??
Gargantua
Design Basis: Atlas AS7-D (9,626,000 C-bills)
Weight Displacement: 100 tons (5,466,666 C-bills)
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 10
Engine: 200 ICE 17
Walking MP: 2
Running MP: 3
Power Amplifiers: .5
Heat Sinks: 17 17
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 304 19
Weapons and Ammo: Location Critical
AC/20 Right Torso 10 14
Ammo (AC/20) 10 Right Torso 2 2
LRM 20 Left Torso 5 10
Ammo (LRM) 12 Left Torso 2 2
Medium Laser Right Arm 1 1
Medium Laser Left Arm 1 1
Medium Laser Center Torso 1 1
Small Laser Center Torso 1 .5
Gargantuan
Design Basis: Atlas AS7-D
Weight Displacement: 100 tons
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 10
Engine: 200 ICE 17
Walking MP: 2
Running MP: 3
Power Amplifiers: 0
Heat Sinks: 15 15
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 304 19
Weapons and Ammo: Location Critical
AC/10 Right Arm 7 12
Ammo (AC/10) 20 Right Torso 2 2
LRM 20 Left Torso 5 10
Ammo (LRM) 12 Left Torso 2 2
SRM-6 Right Torso 2 3
Ammo (SRM) 15 Right Torso 1 1
5 Machine Guns Left Arm 5 2.5
Ammo (Machine Gun) 100 Left Arm 1 .5
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I've similarly retooled the Jupiter with a little fluff. Replaced the Large Laser with a Medium and the AC/5 with a AC/10. What do you think?
Jupiter
Design Basis: Zeus
Weight Displacement: 80 tons
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 8
Engine: 240 ICE 23
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Power Amplifiers: .5
Heat Sinks: 11 11
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 184 11.5
Weapons and Ammo: Location Critical
Medium Laser Left Torso 1 1
LRM 15 Right Arm 3 7
Ammo (LRM) 16 Right Torso 2 2
AC/10 Left Arm 4 8
Ammo (AC) 20 Left Arm 2 2
The pride and joy of the Marian Hercules Project is this Auxiliary BattleMech based on the Zeus. Named for the Supreme Roman Deity it is a capable assault war machine in terms of firepower and speed. While the armor is a little lacking and minor overheating could occur if continued Alpha Strikes were carried out the Hegemony is very satisfied with its new ‘Mech which often serves as a command element for Auxiliary forces.
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Fang
Design Basis: Stinger
Weight Displacement: 20 tons
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 2
Engine: 80 ICE 5
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Power Amplifiers: 0
Heat Sinks: 2 2
Gyro: 1
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 64 4
Weapons and Ammo: Location Criticals
2 Machine Guns Right Arm 2 1
2 Machine Guns Left Arm 2 1
1 Machine Gun Center Torso 1 .5
Ammo (MGs) 100 Left Torso 1 .5
The Fang is apparently a pirate ICE Mech based on the Stinger alleged being produced on some unknown bandit world out in the Deep Periphery. Its manufacturer, euphemistically named Parts Unknown, has thus far eluded all intelligence efforts to root out further details leaving us to speculate here on its design. Since Alphard Trading Corporation considers this ‘RetroTech’ proprietary there is a high degree of probability that this Marian firm has something to do with it. Both the company and the Hegemony repeatedly denied these ‘outrageous accusations’ publicly stating that ‘they would never fund terrorist Mech attacks.’ Evidence seems to back these assertions and so for now we are all left to wonder where the Fang came from. Conspiracy theorists insist that the Marians had help putting the entire ‘low-tech’ Mech industry that they are now profiting from and that some unknown party is actually behind the whole thing. Whatever its origins the Fang is becoming an all too common sight with bandits along the Periphery Anti-Spinward regions.
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I need to find time to write down my ideas about Primitive 'Mechs.
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Love to hear what you think bud! For now here is my knock off Cicada!
Geocoris
Design Basis: Cicada
Weight Displacement: 40 tons
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 4
Engine: 200 ICE 17
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Power Amplifiers: 0
Heat Sinks: 2 2
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 136 8.5
Weapons and Ammo: Location Criticals
2 Machine Guns Right Arm 2 1
2 Machine Guns Left Arm 2 1
Machine Gun Center Torso 1 .5
Ammo (MGs) 100 Right Torso 1 1
Remote Sensor Dispenser Center Torso 1 .5
This ‘big-eyed bug’ based on the Cicada is the medium scout ICE Mech made by the Kaliphard Cooperative at Kendall for Jeffrey’s Liberation Battalions. The bigger brother of the Gnat features the same maximum speed, five Machine Guns, and a Remote Sensor Dispenser. While more weapons and equipment were considered designers opted for the maximum amount of armor protection. Eight and a half tons is more than double the amount of the Cicada allowing it to take more than a fair amount of punishment. Often paired with a couple of Gnats in a Scout Lance because of their identical speed profiles these fast ‘RetroMechs’ have proven quite capable in their role.
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Firebird
Design Basis: Phoenix Hawk
Weight Displacement: 45 tons
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 4.5
Engine: 180 ICE 14
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Power Amplifiers: .5
Heat Sinks: 8 8
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 152 9.5
Weapons and Ammo: Location Criticals
Medium Laser Right Arm 1 1
Medium Laser Left Arm 1 1
Machine Gun Right Arm 1 .5
Machine Gun Left Arm 1 .5
Ammo (MG) 100 Right Torso 1 .5
The Firebird is one of the flagship products from Freebird Enterprises based on the Phoenix Hawk. Often utilized as a command element for lighter ICE Mech lances in Jeffrey Marik's Liberation Battalions because it has the speed to keep up with these faster formations. The Firebird features two Medium Lasers which is rare for these RetroMechs because of these energy weapons higher heat curve. Two Machine Guns round out its armament which is complemented by maximum armor protection thanks to eight and half tons of standard plating.
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Blackbird
Design Basis: Shadow Hawk
Weight Displacement: 55 tons
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 5.5
Engine: 165 ICE 12
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Power Amplifiers: 0
Heat Sinks: 8 8
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 152 9.5
Weapons and Ammo: Location Criticals
AC/5 LT 4 8
Ammo (AC) 20 LT 1 1
LRM-5 RT 1 2
Ammo (LRM) 24 RT 1 1
SRM-4 H 1 2
Ammo (SRM) 25 RT 1 1
The Blackbird is a Periphery Marik ICE Mech modeled after the venerable Shadow Hawk. Built by Freebird Enterprises on Illyria as one of their two flagship war machines it has earned a place as a Medium Fire Support asset in Jeffrey Marik's Liberation Battalions. Armed with an Autocannon/5 and an LRM-5 rack the Blackbird has solid long-range pop which is supplemented by an SRM-4 for close quarters fighting. Only able to go fifty-four kilometers per hour it mounts the same armor protection as its forbearer which is pretty significant for its size.
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Sandfly
Design Basis: Wasp
Weight Displacement: 20 tons
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 2
Engine: 80 ICE 5
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Power Amplifiers: .5
Heat Sinks: 4 4
Gyro: 1
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 56 3.5
Weapons and Ammo: Location Criticals
Medium Laser Right Arm 1 1
The Sandfly is a Light RetroMech based on the Wasp manufactured by Caliphate Arms on the world of Ayn Tarma. The first such design produced in the newly established Tarmanid Sultunate has been spotted in the service of several Islamic worlds within the fractured Free Worlds League. From the Andurien front on Kanata and Mosiro to the Ideyid Planetary Militia and the Ghanzi Planetary Militias this twenty-ton war machine continues to rapidly proliferate. This primitive Mech has even been spotted on the not too distant bandit world of Astrokaszy. Sporting a Medium Laser gives it better range than most Light ICE ‘Mechs as well as no ammunition concerns. Combined with its reasonable speed a number of these pests can make things difficult for normal BattleMechs.
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Badger
Design Basis: Wolverine
Weight Displacement: 55 tons
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 5.5
Engine: 165 ICE 12
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Power Amplifiers: 0
Heat Sinks: 9 9
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 152 9.5
Weapons and Ammo: Location Criticals
AC/5 RA 4 8
Ammo (AC) 20 RA 1 1
SRM-6 H 2 3
Ammo (SRM) 15 RT 1 1
Medium Laser H 1 1
While some accuse the Commonality Defenses of Lesnovo with outright intellectual theft of the WVR-6R Wolverine when it comes to the Badger they don’t seem to care. Built using techniques developed and licensed by the Alphard Trading Company this RetroMech closely matches the performance of its predecessor. Feilding the exact same armament and armor layout of the Wolverine the shorter-range Badger works well with the longer ranged Blackbird in Marik Liberation units. The one thing that makes it stand out from other ICE Mechs is its heat dissipation system which can’t alleviate a Running Alpha Strike. Mechwarriors should be ware that repeated maximum exertion could tax the cooling system.
Onager
Design Basis: Trebuchet
Weight Displacement: 50 tons
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 5
Engine: 150 ICE 11
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Power Amplifiers: .5
Heat Sinks: 7 7
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 120 7.5
Weapons and Ammo: Location Criticals
LRM-20 RT 5 10
Ammo (LRM) 12 RT 2 2
2 Medium Lasers LT 2 2
It is said that the Onager is part Trebuchet and part Hunchback because of the design compromises made in order to bring it to life. Initially developed by Hercules MechWorks its half-finished concept was licensed out to Commonality Defenses of Lesnovo as other simpler designs came online. Rimward engineers unable to deal with the substantial heat of the Trebuchet’s twin LRM-15s the decision was made to go with a single LRM-20 for fire support which gave it a bit of a Hunchback feel. Additionally, like the Badger it is not a ‘zero heat principle ICE Mech design’ and can overheat. Mechwarriors are advised to bracket fire LRMs or Lasers depending on their opponents range while alternating movement for maximum effect.
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Legionnaire
Design Basis: Centurion
Weight Displacement: 50 tons
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 5
Engine: 150 ICE 11
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Power Amplifiers: 0
Heat Sinks: 5 5
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 136 8.5
Weapons and Ammo: Location Criticals
Autocannon/10 RA 7 12
Ammo (AC) 20 RA 2 2
2 Machine Guns CT 2 1
Ammo (MG) 100 LT 1 .5
Aside from the creation of the Jupiter there was no RetroMech more important to the Marian Hegemony then the Legionnaire. This primitive version of the Centurion manufactured at Hercules MechWorks on Alphard was to be the very standard bearer of Nova Roma. Unfortunately, design limitations hampered its development and forced some hard compromises. With a max speed of 32 kilometers per hour judged too slow by the Caesar himself use of a smaller 100 ICE power plant was out of the question. With a 150 ICE now mandatory to achieve an acceptable maximum speed of 54 kilometers per hour there was not a lot of space for weapons and equipment. Since an Autocannon/10 was another priority of the Caesar designers left it in place but had to remove the LRMs altogether and replace the Medium Lasers with Machine Guns. While this certainly diminished the arsenal of the Centurion it was judged to be acceptable by the Hegemony who quickly put this machine into production.
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Mameluke
Design Basis: Dervish
Weight Displacement: 55 tons
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 5.5
Engine: 165 ICE 12
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Power Amplifiers: 0
Heat Sinks: 9 9
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 128 8
Weapons and Ammo: Location Criticals
LRM-15 RT 3 7
Ammo (LRM) 16 RT 2 2
SRM-6 LT 2 3
Ammo (SRM) 15 LT 1 1
2 Machine Guns RA 2 1
2 Machine Guns LA 2 1
Ammo (MG) 100 LT 1 .5
The Mameluke modeled after the Dervish was designed along the same lines as the Onager. Caliphate Arms combined missile racks to minimize heat generated and exchanged Machine Guns for Medium Lasers. While this technique somewhat reduced the performance of its arsenal when compared to its predecessor it is still quite capable. A 165 ICE Power Plant enables it to reach a maximum speed of 54 kilometers per hour while eight tons of armor plating is a slight improvement over the Dervish. Like the Sandfly, it can be seen in the service of Islamic warriors in the Free Worlds League fighting in the 3rd Marik Civil War.
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Squire
Design Basis: Chameleon
Weight Displacement: 50 tons
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 5
Engine: 200 ICE 17
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Power Amplifiers: .5
Heat Sinks: 9 9
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 112 7
Weapons and Ammo: Location Criticals
Large Laser RA 2 5
2 Machine Guns CT 2 1
Ammo (MG) 100 LT 1 .5
Eager to dispel persistent insinuations that it was supplying RetroMech technology to bandits Alphard Trading Corporation generously financed the birth of Hope Industrial Works of Randis IV. This anti-pirate endeavor by the Brotherhood of Randis would augment the strength of their benevolent organization by producing ICE Mech for potential Mechwarriors. To that end they designed the Squire which was based on the Chameleon in order to train future Knights. Together with the lighter Page these units would work in concert with a Mechwarrior Knight as part of a Trinity. This subunit of a true BattleMech lance would in theory compose a ‘Light Company’ which could triple the size of the Brotherhood rapidly if need be. Also, this new concept enabled individual Brothers to engage in ‘quests’ with the support of these ‘Primitive Mechs’.
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Page
Design Basis: Mongoose
Weight Displacement: 25 tons
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 2.5
Engine: 125 ICE 8
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Power Amplifiers: 0
Heat Sinks: 2 2
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 72 4.5
Weapons and Ammo: Location Criticals
2 Machine Guns Right Arm 2 1
2 Machine Guns Left Arm 2 1
Ammo (MGs) 100 Right Torso 1 .5
Remote Sensor Dispenser Center Torso 1 .5
The Brotherhood of Randis choose to emulate their second RetroMech after the Star League Mongoose. Named the Page for the youngest assistants of a Knight this ‘Primitive Mech’ will serve in much the same fashion as its namesake. More of a fast messenger with a Remote Sensor Dispenser that can help scan the battlefield it does possess light armament. Four Machine Guns which can deal effectively with infantry aren’t meant to enable it to be a true fighter. That will be left to a True Brother’s BattleMech rather than his retinue which will only serve to supplement his operations.
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Drake
Design Basis: Dragon
Weight Displacement: 60 tons
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 6
Engine: 180 ICE 14
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Power Amplifiers: 0
Heat Sinks: 7 7
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 160 10
Weapons and Ammo: Location Criticals
LRM-10 CT 2 5
Ammo (LRM) 24 LT 2 2
AC/5 RA 4 8
Ammo (AC) 20 RT 1 1
Machine Gun LA 1 .5
Machine Gun LT (R) 1 .5
Ammo (Machine Gun) 100 LT 1 1
As Rasalhague expatriates settled on Illyria a number of their battered war machines became the basis for RetroMechs developed by Freebird Enterprises. The Drake mimics the Dragon’s capabilities almost perfectly with the normal changes or downgrades made to almost every Primitive ‘Mech. Machine Guns replaced Medium Lasers and the ICE powered design could only match its predecessor’s cruising speed at maximum acceleration. The Drake was immediately pressed into service with Jeffrey Marik’s Liberation Battalions during the 3rd Marik Civil War where they performed adequately in combat often against superior foes.
Wrangler
Design Basis: Quickdraw
Weight Displacement: 60 tons
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 6
Engine: 180 ICE 14
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Power Amplifiers: .5
Heat Sinks: 9 9
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 200 12.5
Weapons and Ammo: Location Criticals
2 LRM-5s LT 2 4
Ammo (LRM) 48 LT 2 2
LRM-5 CT 1 2
Medium Laser RA 1 1
Machine Gun RA 1 .5
Medium Laser LA 1 1
Machine Gun LA 1 .5
Small Laser RT 1 .5
2 Machine Guns RT (R) 2 1
Ammo (Machine Gun) 100 RT 1 .5
Commonality Defenses of Lesnovo has recently introduced the Wrangler RetroMech based on the Quickdraw. With three LRM-5s, two Medium Lasers, Small Laser, and four Machine Guns it may actually exceed the QKD-4G arsenal in some ways. Nine Heat Sinks mainly allow for bracket firing but are capable of a one-time Alpha Strike without significant overheating effects. Twelve and a half tons of armor provide nearly full protection for this sixty-ton RetroMech which far exceeds the Quickdraw. However, the Wrangler is slower than its forerunner but this is typical for these primitive war machines.