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Author Topic: MA's Vision of Clan OmniMechs: 3048 and Beyond  (Read 1388 times)

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wolfcannon

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Re: MA's Vision of Clan OmniMechs: 3048 and Beyond
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2018, 11:50:21 PM »

while sad to see the blood spirit mechs not making your cut sorta offset by the assault named after them.
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marauder648

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Re: MA's Vision of Clan OmniMechs: 3048 and Beyond
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2018, 03:45:46 AM »

Due to their nature I doubt the Spirits would willingly share with anyone else unless they REALLY had to.  More for them instead :D
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wolfcannon

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Re: MA's Vision of Clan OmniMechs: 3048 and Beyond
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2018, 08:30:56 AM »

True that.
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Vition2

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Re: MA's Vision of Clan OmniMechs: 3048 and Beyond
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2018, 02:41:51 PM »

A big part of me thinks that you ended up giving too much to clans which didn't really have a lot of industrial potential.  Notably the Blood Spirits, Goliath Scorpions, and Ice Hellions.  Now I understand that the Scorpions and Hellions are the ones that kick off the new arms race, but I don't see their 'mechs necessarily always coming out on top, regardless of getting there first. 

With the idea that the Ice Hellions and Scorpions are kicking off the arms race, this is kind of how I see the overall industrial potential of most of the clans, at least regarding how much they put to OmniMech production:


Blood Spirits         3 (4)
- they actually get 4 slots due to entirely using standard engines
Burrock               3
Cloud Cobra           2
- very focused on aerospace power so are lower than otherwise expected
Coyote                4
Diamond Shark         4
- likely those designs that are the most ubiquitous among all the clans, not necessarily those produced by the most clans
Fire Mandrill         3
Ghost Bear            5
- fluffed as being able to make what they need when they need it, few if any of their produced designs are likely to be exclusively theirs
Goliath Scorpions     4
- have one larger than likely industrial capability due to getting the jump on other clans
Hell's Horses         3
- focus heavily on combat vehicles, but still have good industrial capabilities
Ice Hellion           3 (4)
- they actually get 4 slots due to their focus on smaller units
Jade Falcon           5
- one of the premier clans, thus first rate 'mech production
Nova Cats             4
Smoke Jaguar          4
- at this point they aren't straining their resources to the breaking point, otherwise they'd probably be at 3
Snow Ravens           3
- focused on warships, but this gives them a larger ability to acquire resources and put them to use than the Cobras
Star Adders           4
- designs are going to be able to fill most, if not all, roles in a touman, likely as generalist as they can get and running the gamut between small recon and large assault 'mechs
Steel Vipers          4
- with control of hellgate they have access to significant resources, after the Battle Cobra and Crossbow, the other two are likely to be higher-end units
Wolf                  5
- like the Falcons, one of the premier clans, and having first rate 'mech production


An example would be the Blood Spirits (mostly because they come first alphabetically).  Normally they wouldn't have the industrial capability to reliably produce more than a few designs in the numbers they want, but they've taken the drastic step to reduce resource costs significantly in using standard engines.  This allows them to have the resources to produce a fourth design for their touman.  Their limited contact with the rest of clan society means that their designs are going to need to fulfill most of the needs the touman expects to face.
Design 1: Unnamed 35-tonner 7/11/0 SFE - this design fills the role of recon in force and harrasser
Design 2: Stooping Hawk - High mobility trooper
Design 3: Crossbow - Heavier trooper, design traded from the Snow Ravens who stole it from the Steel Vipers.
Design 4: Blood Spirit - Their iconic 'mech, and heavy assault unit, unfortunately not entirely theirs, having help from either or both the Fire Mandrills (one of the kindraa) and Snow Ravens.

Lastly, I've never liked the "II" designation of some of the later OmniMech designs, rather I'd prefer them to have new names which hearken back to the original.  Here are my suggestions for some of what you've proposed:

Mad Dog II  ->  Rabid Cur
Hellbringer II  ->  Ragnarok
Grizzly II  ->  Abyssal Grizzly
Executioner II  ->  Dullahan
Gargoyle II  ->  Grotesque  (not sure if you were going to go with a new version of this)
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masterarminas

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Re: MA's Vision of Clan OmniMechs: 3048 and Beyond
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2018, 03:47:24 PM »

The "II" designations are simply place holders for the moment.  Rest assured, they will get their own names!

And, I do agree with most of what you said on production.  The Scorpions get around this (in part) by using just two engines for all five of their new OmniMechs (350XL for the Sand Devil and Goliath Scorpion; 360XL for the Hooded Eagle, Desert Tiger, and Dune Stalker.  Plus, their fifth OmniMech (the assault weight Dune Stalker) is going to be extremely limited in the Scorpion Touman. 

I'm talking about fifty chassis total.  Fifty individual units.  No more.  Which means they are probably going to wind up teaming up with another Clan (probably Star Adder) to share the design let THAT Clan produce the OmniMech in mass.  Retaining their rights to the design and their rights to produce them . . . but not actually having a production line open.  Instead, acquiring one or two or three a year (as needed for replacements) from the Adders.  Or the Sharks.  Or whoever.

Which leaves four Scorpion Omnis.  The fluff on all of them will be rewritten.  The Hooded Eagle will be a collaboration with Wolf, as will the Desert Tiger, as both units fill a role in the Wolf Touman (and the Desert Eagle is a far better Linebacker than the Linebacker ever was!).  The Sand Devil I see as the result of cooperating with Clan Diamond Shark.

In canon, they produced the Grendel.  Similar movement profile, similar role (albeit without the fixed JJs of the later design).  They also (in canon) introduced the Conjurer 2 BattleMech . . . which upgraded to a 350XL engine!  And, I'm thinking that maybe instead of borrowing the Talos from the SLDF archives of the Taurian War, instead they use the MechWarrior 4 Hellhound version of the Conjurer . . . which looks absolutely bad-ass and could make for a decent Omni-conversion!

And, as Takiro has suggested, the Goliath Scorpion would fit the bit as a replacement for the Summoner.  And just about everyone uses the Summoner (not as much as the Falcons, perhaps, but the Horses [for example] produce it themselves in house). 

Which is how I see it being possible for the Scorpions to manage to produce their own OmniMechs . . . especially since they are closing down BattleMech production lines and converting them for these new units.

Anyway, I hope that answers some of your questions.

MA
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masterarminas

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Re: MA's Vision of Clan OmniMechs: 3048 and Beyond
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2018, 09:25:28 PM »

Let me be a little more specific for Clan Goliath Scorpion.  Via canon, we know that the Scorpions had three manufacturing facilities prior to 3050.

Marshall Light Assembly Station (Marshall).  Manufacturing the Commando IIC and the Mithras.

Dagda Battle Armor Production Facility Alpha (Dagda).  Manufacturing Elemental (and later Undine) Battle Armor, as well as the Svantovit.

Roche QuadPlex Alpha (Roche).  Manufacturing the Fire Scorpion, Hellbringer, Ares Hachiman, Ku, Ishtar, Huitzilopochtli, and Mars.

Only three 'Mechs (just one of them an OmniMech), two Heavy weight and one Light.

But EIGHT combat vehicles!  For a Clan that DOES NOT USE combat vehicles in their Touman (either front-line or second-line!)!!

Now.  Maybe it is just me.  But.  If the Scorpions would just stop producing vehicles (that it doesn't use anyway!) there should be more than production capability to fit in five new OmniMech lines (especially since we are ending production of the Commando IIC, Fire Scorpion, and Hellbringer as well!

Instead of three BattleMechs and eight Combat Vehicle lines, we are going to have instead five OmniMech lines and three OmniFighter lines.

Which, by the way, all use one of two engines (350XL or 360XL), all share the same Communications Systems (JNE Integrated), all share the same Targeting & Tracking Systems (TRTTS Mk II), all (OmniMechs) use the same Ferro-Fibrous armor plating (just in different amounts).  And the OmniFighters share the same Ferro-Aluminum source!

Correct me if I am wrong here, but doesn't that make more sense for the Scorpions than what they actually do manufacture in canon?

MA
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Vition2

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Re: MA's Vision of Clan OmniMechs: 3048 and Beyond
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2018, 10:26:00 PM »

For a Clan that DOES NOT USE combat vehicles in their Touman (either front-line or second-line!)!!

First, this is false, they may not use a lot, but they do use some.  More specifically the Donar and Anhur are called out as being used by the Goliath Scorpions in their TRO write-ups.


Let me be a little more specific for Clan Goliath Scorpion.  Via canon, we know that the Scorpions had three manufacturing facilities prior to 3050.

Marshall Light Assembly Station (Marshall).  Manufacturing the Commando IIC and the Mithras.

Dagda Battle Armor Production Facility Alpha (Dagda).  Manufacturing Elemental (and later Undine) Battle Armor, as well as the Svantovit.

Roche QuadPlex Alpha (Roche).  Manufacturing the Fire Scorpion, Hellbringer, Ares Hachiman, Ku, Ishtar, Huitzilopochtli, and Mars.


You have, apparently, fallen into the trap of using Sarna as a source of canon material.  All eight of the vehicles listed here are manufactured at "various" clan locations, none of them specify any of the above, nor are there any indications that they should be built at those facilities.  This is a case of an editor making a decision without any basis in canon.

The Scorpions are known to have very little manufacturing capability, supported by the frequent statements that they are among the most nomadic of the clans (occasionally being referred to as gypsies) - if one is traveling frequently, one is unable to set up a strong industry.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from your idea that the Scorpions start an arms race of some kind, but some of what you are suggesting gives me the impression that you are pushing them from what I see as a distant 3rd tier industrial clan to an upper 2nd tier industrial clan - which, imo, is really pushing what I consider possible in a short term.  (for minor reference, I consider three clans to be tier 1 clans, nine to be tier 2 clans, and five to be tier 3 clans - including all three of the ones I mentioned above; I'll admit that I'm using FM:Updates and some assumptions regarding the Star Adders, Burrocks, and Smoke Jaguars to come to these tiers though so the timeline for it is messy)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 10:30:06 PM by Vition2 »
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masterarminas

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Re: MA's Vision of Clan OmniMechs: 3048 and Beyond
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2018, 10:44:14 PM »

First, this is false, they may not use a lot, but they do use some.  More specifically the Donar and Anhur are called out as being used by the Goliath Scorpions in their TRO write-ups.

Neither of which are manufactured by the Scorpions, are they?  And did not the Scorpion entry in Field Manual:  Warden Clans specifically say that the Scorpions do not use combat vehicles in their Touman?  I know i read that somewhere, once upon a time.

But it seems that canon writers can be bothered with keeping things straight.  Like how the Scorpions disdain missile weapons . . . and then go oh, let us design and build the Commando IIC which is a missile boat.  Which we hate.  But we'll build!

MA
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Vition2

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Re: MA's Vision of Clan OmniMechs: 3048 and Beyond
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2018, 10:58:07 PM »

I get that, inconsistency in canon is quite annoying.  But no, warden clans doesn't specify they don't use them, but does leave them out when going over the forces, suggesting they are a small contingent.  In addition, the Scorpion Touman is stated as being particularly regimented consisting of "Battlemechs, aerospace and Elemental forces," omitting combat vehicles - unfortunately omission does not equate to non-existence. Vehicles are only mentioned in the portions referring to Seeker retinues.

And I really get the doctrinal issue, I would have loved to see clans follow through on manufacturing units that supported their separate military doctrines - and using them.  The Ravens likely would have completely eschewed artillery units, instead relying on limited ortillery.  The Star Adders would have attempted to consolidate the chasses they ended up using to limit logistical issues.  The Cloud Cobras building and relying heavily on aerospace units.  The Falcons focusing on mobility and aggression.  Etc... etc... etc...
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