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Author Topic: Quicksilver Next Step  (Read 3335 times)

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Takiro

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Re: Quicksilver Next Step
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2018, 12:14:36 AM »

Ok guys, found ten relevant links to the topic marauder648 bought up but for now i will list the main one begun by masterarminas.

https://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/index.php?topic=2814.0
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Quicksilver Next Step
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2018, 03:33:43 AM »

Ok guys, found ten relevant links to the topic marauder648 bought up but for now i will list the main one begun by masterarminas.

https://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/index.php?topic=2814.0

Vehicles  8)
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

marauder648

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Re: Quicksilver Next Step
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2018, 06:07:17 AM »

Going off this

Quote
Scout - speed and to a lesser extent electronics matter, firepower and protection really don't. Could be VTOL, Hover or even other motive types.

Light Tank - primarily this fills the role of something cheap that can be deployed in large numbers. I'm not sure any Clan would bother with this.

Fast Attack Tank - fast and hard-hitting, almost always hover. Armour is sacrificed The Epona basically has this covered.

Medium Tank - a balance between speed, firepower and armour. These are typically the backbone of a large armoured force, around the top of the medium and bottom of the heavy weight bracket.

Main Battle Tank - intended to slug it out with battlemechs, these compare well in firepower and protection but have to trade off speed to maintain that parity. Usually operate at the upper end of heavy or the lower end of assault tonnage. Usually tracked but not always.

Assault Tank - very heavily armed and armoured, these are used to assault or guard fixed locations and therefore need very little speed. They tend to turn into pill-boxes quite easily. Tracks are mandatory for survivability.

Weapon Carriers - neither fast nor well protected, these are all about throwing the maximum amount of firepower down-range. Tend to be larger for the needed tonnage.

I've a few thoughts on this.


Scout - The Shamash and Ashur definately fill out this role but because of their specialized nature they would probably be way down the totem pole for any new designs.  Or perhaps because of it, they are.  I don't know if the new ilKhan will 'suggest' that perhaps 2nd line Warriors be used, and if so, shove them in the scouts, their role is to locate the enemy and not fight them, perfect for Solhama or test downs.

Light Tank - We kind of have this with the Ares which is light, armoured at best with baking foil or a tin pan where its thickest, but has a fairly notable slap.  you've also got the Zorya and Mithras although these are far more second line than the Ares.

Fast Attack Tank - Epona for sure, there's also the later http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hephaestus which would fill this out nicely, especially if you pulled out the infantry bay.

Medium Tank - The Clans are basically lacking a medium striker like tank until the Enyo comes along and this is one area that could be seen as a gap needing to be filled.  The Ku’s too slow, the Hachiman’s a Weapons carrier more than a tank and is a support vehicle.  The Oro is also too slow and too inflexible due to its wildly varying weapon ranges and its terrifyingly thin hide.  So the ‘medium tank’ area could be one for exploration and I think might be seen as the best form of a compromise candidate between the Clans who go REEEEEEEE!!! At the sheer thought of vehicles and those who see their utility.  And a medium vehicle wouldn’t consume the resources of a heavy or assault.

Main Battle Tank – Again an area the Clans generally lack.  The Oro’s more a defensive unit although how its meant to act as an AA gun with that short range LB-20 is beyond me.  And its not really until we get later things like the Axel IIC or Morrigu that the Clans get something like a real MBT.  Again, this I can see being a bit more popular but far rarer than Medium strike tanks.

 Assault Tank – Whilst the Clans have the Mars and its got enough firepower to make an assault dropship sit up and take notice, we know its not very common and only the Horses make them.  Assault tanks I think would be passed over by Quicksilver as they consume a large amount of resources, and take up valuable space in DropShips and are full of mobility limitations.  Maybe the Horses make an upgrade of the Mars but otherwise I’d say that to avoid a potential political hot potato the ilKhan does not authorize an assault tank under the Quicksilver program.  But perhaps he also does not specifically BAN one being built, so this could mean the Horses make a 95 ton tank or something for themselves etc.

 Weapon Carriers – We’ve already got two, the Athena and Huey, but both are really quite complex vehicles but I can see the Clans actually favouring a weapon carrier like vehicle.  Cheap to make and heavily armed if they have the firepower to delete a target or two then they’ve probably made their money back.  They’d almost certinally be a defensive unit though but this might be seen as a positive  because during the period of rebuilding, the Invader Clans need defensive units to bolster their PGC’s to defend against the near constant raiding that was going on in the period following Tukkayid.
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Abele

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Re: Quicksilver Next Step
« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2018, 08:42:10 AM »

You want the infantry bay. It's another way to get crunchies into the fight.
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marauder648

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Re: Quicksilver Next Step
« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2018, 10:05:52 AM »

I'd say remove it so you could carry a bit more weapons, have an omni config being the troop carrier with its weapons stripped out for a box to pile elementals on top of one another.
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Bradshaw

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Re: Quicksilver Next Step
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2018, 08:28:23 AM »

I never liked the game mechanics for carrying infantry and Battlearmor, I could see for specialized equipment if can repair Battlearmor costing tons but it should really just take up space on the design to transport them. I forget the conversion for tons to carrying guys but you could have a little tiny vehicle carry an exorbitantly large group of people and it'd be fine for game mechanics but wouldn't make sense visually.
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marauder648

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Re: Quicksilver Next Step
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2018, 10:31:36 AM »

The rules are for simplfication but it does lead to clown car situations when you put X tonnage of normal infantry into an APC.  For example the 31 ton Warrior IFV, a vehicle I spent 6 months pootling around Iraq in has room for 7 blokes in the back with full equipment and you can fit more if you want but 7 are meant to be able to fight from the vehicle if needed through the medium of opening up the roof hatches and firing out of them.  But that gave you room to move around etc.  Any more than that and mobility became a bit tight, and if you overloaded it then its a sardine can.

And assuming you could put an Elemental in (which you could, you just load him/her in and their suit in through the top hatch) you could probably fit 2 in there maybe 3, standing room only and their heads and missile launchers would be poking out of the hatches.

So when I see a Tracked APC that can apparently carry 6 tons worth of infantry (and I can't remember how much that is but Its something like 20+ IIRC) I have to wonder if these things are actually tesseracts or Tardis like in their interior :s
I was in my Warrior when we had 10 in the back (including 1 civilian translator) and it was horribly cramped, you couldn't move around much, you had to sit down and we was thankful the back hatches were open.    So god knows how they'd fit 20 + troops in a 10 ton vehicle.
Unless they can do the same thing they do with missiles and make them swell up with missiles so you can fit x number of missiles in a Mech's hull space :p
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 10:35:05 AM by marauder648 »
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Bradshaw

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Re: Quicksilver Next Step
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2018, 11:37:58 AM »

Haha exactly

Don't get me started on missiles. I never understood SRM 2 missiles cant work on an SRM 4 you may also have mounted like the Commando. Why cant you just say you get 100 missiles per ton or whatever number works when divided by all the 3 or 4 types depending on missile type.
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Quicksilver Next Step
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2018, 04:25:26 PM »

Haha exactly

Don't get me started on missiles. I never understood SRM 2 missiles cant work on an SRM 4 you may also have mounted like the Commando. Why cant you just say you get 100 missiles per ton or whatever number works when divided by all the 3 or 4 types depending on missile type.

In a way it works like that.
LRM-5 24 rounds per ton => 120 missiles per ton
LRM-10 12 rounds per ton => 120 missiles per ton
LRM-15 8 rounds per ton => 120 missiles per ton
LRM-20 6 rounds per ton => 120 missiles per ton

SRM-2 50 rounds per ton => 100 missiles per ton
SRM-4 25 rounds per ton => 100 missiles per ton
SRM-6 15 rounds per ton => 90 missiles per ton
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Bradshaw

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Re: Quicksilver Next Step
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2018, 04:52:59 PM »

But why do i still get less for that srm 6 and why do i have to designate tons for different systems simple feed mechanisms can pull from one bin for the  multiple systems
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drakensis

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Re: Quicksilver Next Step
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2018, 02:53:39 AM »

So when I see a Tracked APC that can apparently carry 6 tons worth of infantry (and I can't remember how much that is but Its something like 20+ IIRC) I have to wonder if these things are actually tesseracts or Tardis like in their interior :s
6 tons makes room for 21 jump infantry (with jump packs), 28 motorized troops (with quads, motorbikes and whatever) or 56 leg infantry.

Some APCs seem to be something like bus chassis wrapped in armour.
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marauder648

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Re: Quicksilver Next Step
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2018, 03:32:23 AM »

56 blokes inside a truck..they'd have to be crammed in their like skittles  the thing is a vehicle can only be so big for its tonnage so even a 10-ton APC would have to be stretched out to be about the size of an 18-wheeler with trailer attached to actually cram 56 troops and their equipment in there in anything resembling fighting order.  Otherwise you're just stacking them up.

So a B-tech troop transports gonna be BIG  even something like the AAV-7



Can 'only' carry 21 people and this is a 29 ton vehicle.

So its obvious that the B-tech numbers are bonkers and are done for pure abstract work to make the game easier without grossly over complicating it.
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marauder648

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Re: Quicksilver Next Step
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2018, 04:32:13 PM »

Clan Fighters and Doctrine – thoughts and ideas.

In the centuries of their isolation the Clan’s military doctrine massively drifted away from the combined arms approach of its SLDF progenitors and in turn this changed the Clans military from top to bottom, ultimately crystalizing in their Zellbringen honour system, Trials and Bidding. 

Doctrine to quote NATO is "Fundamental principles by which the military forces guide their actions in support of objectives. It is authoritative but requires judgement in application"

And whilst the Clans military is very rigid for the most part we see different levels of adherence to Zell to outright deviations of it that are barely accepted.  Some Clans stuck with Zell no matter what others played it loose, often to their benefit whilst some, like the Hellions evolved their own ideas on how it should be, often influenced by their own doctrinal ideas.

But as a whole, the Clans doctrinal ideas could be said to be at least derived from Blitzkrieg, where you use speed and firepower to overwhelm an opponent and break up any resistance which can then be cut off and destroyed piecemeal.  This is mostly done through the application of superior firepower and technology, combined with generally superior personnel and the fights would be short, sharp but very violent. 

This shows itself in Clan Mech’s being gun heavy but ammo light, it’s enough for a short battle but as the Clans had not waged a true Campaign against a foe for a long time, and because their doctrine and ideology were folded into one, the Clans learned how to fight battles but forgot how to fight wars.

Wars are not just decided by the side with the biggest guns and the most advanced equipment, but built on the foundations laid down by logistics and supply and here the Clans fall flatter than the Wehrmacht in World War II.  Ammunition constraints were not a problem in Clan Trials as they probably wouldn’t last long enough, and if both sides were expecting a longer fight, then they just configured their Mechs with energy weapons.

The Clans also assumed that their Inner Sphere opponents would fight by their rules, which echoes Ancient Japanese Samurai in the first few battles against the Mongols.  Warriors would declare their intent, stating their challenge, only to be riddled with arrows by the Mongols who wouldn’t give two figs for the way the Japanese wanted to fight. 

The Zellbrigen mindset and the Trial system of combat shaped the Clan’s war machine and many of the 3050 designs are monuments to it, with Clan Mechs generally outrunning, outgunning but not out lasting their opponents and this was the same in the air and space of the Inner Sphere and Homeworlds.

Omnifighters – Short legged attack dogs.

Clan fighters worship two gods, firepower and speed, with all other considerations quite secondary.  Until later books came out there wasn’t a single Spheroid fighter that could match its Clan equivalent in terms of firepower or speed.  But this came at a cost in terms of protection and endurance. 

In modern parlance the Clan fighters are an interceptor.  Their job is to go up, remove a threat, come down to refuel, go up again, repeat and rinse.  Obviously the OmniPod technology renders such role defining terms obsolete, their limited fuel tanks between 3 – 5 tons of fuel at the most, mean that Clan fighters tend to lack endurance, much like traditional interceptors had in the 1960s – 1980s.  Indeed, whilst as Inner Sphere fighters weight goes up, so too does their fuel bunkerage with them adopting 5 tons of fuel in many light fighters and even more in some, the opposite is true of the Clans, with them being common with the Sulla onwards, both the Jagatai and Sabutai drop to 4 and then 3-ton fuel tanks respectively.  Even the Jengiz and Scytha only have 4-ton fuel tanks and this limits their loiter time compared to the roomier tanks on Spheroid fighters, especially when you take the higher speed and thus fuel consumption of Clan fighters into account.

Most Clan fighters also lack armour protection compared to their Spheroid equivalents.  For example, the 60-ton Gotha and Stingray both rival or exceed the Visigoth, Jagatai or Sabutai and the Clan fighters make extensive use of ferro-aluminium to save weight and increase protection.  This may well have come from the fact that with how potent the Clan’s guns are, armouring a fighter against them would come at too great a cost to firepower or performance as one or both would have to be sacrificed to add a suitable level of protection to proof them against Clan weaponry.

But in return for limited endurance and thin armour, Clan fighters are generally very well armed, with many of their heavy or assault fighters packing enough firepower to make Assault DropShips and WarShips not only sit up and take notice, but make panicked and distressed noises as well.  With their superior technology the Clans have a range and firepower advantage and most fighters, once they can take heavier weapons immediately take advantage of this.  As an example, the Avar prime’s ER large laser can threshold any fighter in service save the monstrous Hydaspes, and it wasn’t until many years later when the Eisensturm made its debut that the Inner Sphere had a fighter that could withstand a hit from an ER large laser without suffering internal damage.  At short to mid-range, a trio of medium pulse lasers can also punch through many larger fighters hides or help in strafing attacks, whilst a Streak 6 is waiting to fill any holes made.  All this on a 35-ton fighter.   But as weight goes up, the Scientists just seemed to pile more and more weapons onto a fighter, regardless of it being able to effectively use them.  Let us use the Turk Prime as an example.  This 50-ton craft mounts a pair of ER PPCs and a pair of ER large lasers and only has 14 double heatsinks.  At the ranges the Turk can engage it has to use half its guns, reducing the others to dead weight for a full alpha strike would almost certainly shut the fighter down and risk a loss of control and a crash.  The larger Jagatai also mirrors this with a pair of ER PPCs and large pulse lasers as well as an LRM-20 firing forwards.  Fortunately, it also has 18 double heatsinks but it still largely reduces up to 12-tons of forwards firing armament irrelevant and this comes at the cost of limited endurance and thin armour for a 70-ton craft. 

All this, to me, speaks of fighters that are, like their Mech counterparts, built to win a fight and win it very quickly trading durability and endurance for a massive punch and higher performance curve.  And this works well in the Clans highly regimented and structured style of combat laid out and adhered to in their doctrine.  And it all comes falling apart when asked to fight in a war.

Striking from an unexpected angle in REVIVAL and in some cases facing opponents who would fight according to an interpretation of Clan styles of combat greatly benefitted the invaders.  Against poorly defended targets or opponents caught utterly by surprise the Clans were able to quickly secure what would become the Occupation Zones, but when asked to fight for longer than a few hours or sticking to Zell when their opponents were not out of a misguided sense of superiority caused the Clans troubles.  Forced into a high operating tempo, Clan fighters and Mech’s quickly found themselves running out of ammunition or fuel, forcing them back to supply points or bases to refuel and rearm, and this in turn meant that more fuel and ammunition was being used, far more than even the most pessimistic expectations of some of the Invader’s leadership.  With limited logistic facilities and a supply chain six months long from the Homeworlds to the Inner Sphere, it’s no wonder than the Clans were forced to halt and stop to recuperate and take stock of what they now held, even as their war machine was parched for want of fuel and munitions.

The Quicksilver program is working to fix some of these flaws, but we can assume that major structural changes like enlarged fuel tanks would not be permitted, nor would changes to a crafts cooling systems, which in turn leaves the designers working with the weapons to get the best out of the craft.  But still, these short-legged craft are going to need to be replaced and the Clans would have to accept the delay in switching over production as a necessary evil to get longer legged and more survivable craft into action.  The battle for a world can be won in space and in the air over a planet, the SLDF knew this, the House Lords know this, the Clans will have to re-learn it.
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Bradshaw

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Re: Quicksilver Next Step
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2018, 05:06:09 PM »

Beautifully stated.
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Takiro

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Re: Quicksilver Next Step
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2018, 05:17:30 PM »

I will give this a close look and post relevant Quicksilver Aerspace threads.
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