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Author Topic: Quicksilver Reconfiguration #3: Savage Coyote  (Read 5410 times)

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drakensis

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Re: Quicksilver Reconfiguration #3: Savage Coyote
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2018, 02:36:17 AM »

Doesn't ring a bell, but I've done a lot of designs over time.

Honestly, I disagree with Masterarminas on the use of 3/5 Mechs. While they have limits, the ability to effectively deny a part of the battle through the amount of firepower that can be brought to bear does provide benefits.
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Takiro

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Re: Quicksilver Reconfiguration #3: Savage Coyote
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2018, 06:32:13 AM »

I do remember and respect your objections MA to the 3/5 Assaults revolving around the 90-ton Dune Stalker during the original Quicksilver contests. Still I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Here with the Savage Coyote I do agree that EndoSteel or even Ferro-Fibrous could have been considered but if everything were optimized right now there would be no room for improvement later on I suppose. True technology does advance but I like a few designs that can be challenged in the near future by something better.

Regarding the Executioner, and OmniMechs in general as a rule, I hate Fixed Jump Jets cause there is just no reason to eliminate options. Okay cool you want to mount jump jets on a 95-tonner fine do so in a configuration(s) there might be a real tactical reason to (urban environment, broken terrain, etc.) but don't lock them in everytime. To me that is stupid. The MASC can be understood as a design choice cause if you want to commit there you need to have it fixed so I get that, we can argue if it is a wise move or not but I at least get that. Fixed Jump Jets are stupid on OmniMechs and should never exist!

Drak didn't you do a re-do of the Executioner as a kind of what if? I vaguely recall seeing it here somewhere.

The 95 ton Zombie for Quicksilver was the Kinslayer designed by Lord Grayson who posted his designs on the old Solaris7 forums and when they crashed his designs there vanished. I do have his winners like the Kinslayer which drakensis may have suggested the name of during the 17th Challenge.
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marauder648

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Re: Quicksilver Reconfiguration #3: Savage Coyote
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2018, 09:29:02 AM »

Well re the Executioner...might we beg the ilKhan's indulgence? 

This might be a bit of a stretch, but the art of the Executioner shows its jump jets to be mounted almost like a big ass jetpack that it carries on its back and shoulders.  Whilst the 16th external heatsink should be removed leaving us with the 15 in the engine. 

But, and here comes the ask.


Can we demount the Jump jets?  Structurally they are mounted as a 'jet pack' and it looks like it kind of slots onto the back. 
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Bradshaw

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Re: Quicksilver Reconfiguration #3: Savage Coyote
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2018, 09:40:56 AM »

Can we demount the Jump jets?  Structurally they are mounted as a 'jet pack' and it looks like it kind of slots onto the back. 

Think the ilKhan backed himself into a corner with his prior quote on fixed jump jets
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masterarminas

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Re: Quicksilver Reconfiguration #3: Savage Coyote
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2018, 11:41:25 AM »

Doesn't ring a bell, but I've done a lot of designs over time.

Honestly, I disagree with Masterarminas on the use of 3/5 Mechs. While they have limits, the ability to effectively deny a part of the battle through the amount of firepower that can be brought to bear does provide benefits.

They do.  But it is just not my style of play except during the 3025/Level I era when using IS 'Mechs.  I understand that for some the sheer, raw, reckless firepower that a 3/5 Clan OmniMech can bring to bear is the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow . . . but I like faster, more maneuverable units.  And for Clan tech, 4/6 is just about as slow as I care to go (honestly, I prefer 5/8 designs!)

And, yeah, Takiro.  I realize that eight tons for fixed jump jets is a bit of a waste.  MASC would be half that amount and consume the same criticals . . . but maybe it is because I've always had bad luck with MASC equipped units and found my lance/star crippled at exactly the wrong moment because I rolled snake eyes just when I trigger the system!

Now, if I was designing a Clan 95-tonner from scratch, it wouldn't have either JJs or MASC.  That would give it 42.5 tons of pod-space, but only 33 critical slots, with 15 fixed DHS internal to the engine.  And that would be an opponent that few would want to fight!
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Bradshaw

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Re: Quicksilver Reconfiguration #3: Savage Coyote
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2018, 01:15:14 PM »

Agreed only Clan design I like going 3/5 is the 100 tonner.

Personally I dislike 95 tonners in strategic purposes because their engines are only usable for that tonnage
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Takiro

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Re: Quicksilver Reconfiguration #3: Savage Coyote
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2018, 06:26:30 PM »

You guys are just gonna have to wait for the Executioner contest before my ruling becomes public. However, I will say Double Heat Sink modification seems very doable based on existing precedent but I am not so sure about removing fixed jump jets. Love to hear in depth (in universe) technical babble (justification) for why such a modification would be relatively simple and quick.

Careful Bradshaw, trying to back the ilKhan into a corner leads to Refusal Wars!

I hear ya masterarminas, I look forward to talking about the Executioner more when it comes up.

Should really start a new thread for Design Principles to address questions like what's with fixed quipment on OmniMechs and  how much ammo is too much ammo and more....
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Quicksilver Reconfiguration #3: Savage Coyote
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2018, 12:35:34 AM »

Careful Bradshaw, trying to back the ilKhan into a corner leads to Refusal Wars!

Bradshaw, you are second on this one, so you will have to wait  ;D
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 12:37:00 AM by Ice Hellion »
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

marauder648

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Re: Quicksilver Reconfiguration #3: Savage Coyote
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2018, 05:00:59 AM »

Quote
You guys are just gonna have to wait for the Executioner contest before my ruling becomes public. However, I will say Double Heat Sink modification seems very doable based on existing precedent but I am not so sure about removing fixed jump jets. Love to hear in depth (in universe) technical babble (justification) for why such a modification would be relatively simple and quick.

Challenge accepted good Sir.
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Abele

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Re: Quicksilver Reconfiguration #3: Savage Coyote
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2018, 05:36:20 AM »

I'm in favor of dropping the MASC, but keeping the jump jets of the Executioner.
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marauder648

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Re: Quicksilver Reconfiguration #3: Savage Coyote
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2018, 05:41:21 AM »

The way I see it, MASC is also built into the Mech's musculature and a lot of its weight also comes in reinforced or specalized joints to withstand the extra stress (hence the weight) and its associated control systems, and this is pretty kind of integral to the hull without serious changes.
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marauder648

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Re: Quicksilver Reconfiguration #3: Savage Coyote
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2018, 10:09:02 AM »

(Please note that as a head canon thing, for me the JJ’s on the Executioner are on the torso, it just makes more sense than the legs.  With a huge mech like this you’re going to want the JJ’s to be as close to the reactor as possible instead of routing all that power through the legs.)

Briefing 041/c Dated 29/09/3053

A in depth structural details regarding possible alterations to the Mech’s hull for the Quicksilver Protocols.

After extensive investigations of the Clan Series Assault SXE chassis which serves as the basis for the Executioner Assault weight OmniMech we have some good news. 
As per the Quicksilver protocols the Scientist Caste begin investigations into the true flexibility of the SXE chassis and where we could take the Executioner with future refits to improve its combat efficiency.

The Heavy Force 380 XL engine has 15 heatsinks built into it and these are an integral part of the cooling systems and superconductors for the reactor and help cool the magnets maintaining the Tokomaks magnetic field and thus cannot be altered.  An additional heatsink, mounted in the right torso (technically under the Mech’s shoulder actuator in its ‘armpit’ however can be removed with little change other than closing off the power leads and coolant pipes, the work of a mere ten minutes, the heatsink itself took 20 minutes to remove and this was with a crew chosen at random.
This frees up 1 ton of weight but we obviously want more.

The MASC system cannot be moved, like the reactor, the Executioner is constructed around it and the adjustments to the myomers as well as all the actuators and associated systems mean that removing them would require a complete redesign of the hull and this obviously falls outside of the remit Quicksilver trials.  Stymied here, our investigations turned to the Executioner’s jump jets. 

As you are no doubt aware the Executioner presents a tall and intimidating profile, but it is comparatively ‘thin’ for a machine its mass, and its internal volume mostly comes from the Mech’s great height and roomy arm actuators.  This somewhat narrow chassis in turn presented a challenge when choosing to fit jump jets to the chassis and the necessarily large reaction masses needed to produce enough thrust to jump successfully.  This was solved in 3000 when the Executioner was being designed with the installation of a large ‘jet pack’ an installation that was successful on the earlier Phoenix Hawk IIC and this was used as inspiration for the Executioner’s jump jets.

The large ‘backpack’ or ‘jet pack’ on the Executioner’s back and shoulders is mostly given over to the jump jets themselves as well as their propellant masses, coolant linkages, power feeds as well as sensors and the flexible thruster nozzles that help keep the mech stable in flight. 
And, save for the linkages to the coolant system, the reactor and the various sensors and T&T system, it is in essence, bolted on.  The large radiator vents either side of the cockpit are mostly decorative as the cooling comes mostly from the engine.  Indeed, some Mechwarrior’s have altered the shoulder mounted intakes so when air is forced through them it produces a loud, and disconcerting ‘roar’, which whilst causing significant ware on the vents themselves is a useful psychological weapon against Spheroid infantry forces.

Under my own authority I had Technicians perform an evaluation of a badly damaged Executioner that had been shot up in a trial and was awaiting repair.  With two weeks of trial and experimentation, we now believe it is possible to actually remove the jump jets and their associated systems from the ‘back pack’.  The jump jets themselves are single units with slot in ports allowing their position to be adjusted depending on the pilots preference and are easily decoupled once the main restraint bolts are removed and the power feeds disconnected.
Removing the reaction tank also took less time than feared.  Unlike smaller Mechs like the Summoner, the Executioner relies on a single large tank of propellant which feeds into all four jump jets.  The plumbing (for lack of a better word) is thus far simpler than the rather complex multi-bottle and feed system of the Summoner.
Once the tank was removed and the associated pipes and feeds removed they were reinstalled and removed repeatedly, and the jump jets still worked when tested after fifty removal and installation tests.  These tests allowed us to refine the methodology for demounting the jets in a workshop environment. 
It was found that by following the protocols we established, the entire thruster array could be removed within eighteen man hours and reinstalled in nine man hours and we still feel that this could be improved upon with further testing, please bear in mind that this is merely a preliminary test and further experimentation and refinement of the protocols will be required.  But, we still feel that 12 man hours is perfectly doable, and eight man hours is a reachable goal.  This could be done whilst a DropShip is in transit from orbit to a target world and requires not special tools, just instructions to follow.

Whilst we realise that this is not one hundred percent ideal, the system is not designed to be modular.  As you are aware even Mechs that are equipped with podded jump jets often have a far higher maintenance need, whereas the Executioner is built for these manouvers and thus the jump jet system is far more integrated to its design. 

But, combined together with the removal of the external heatsink, removing the Jump jets also frees up a not inconsiderable 9 tons of weight and allows for more weapon systems to be installed in the formerly rather restrictive torso area of the Mech.  This more than a payoff for eight hours work if we can free up nine tons of weapons and equipment without overburdening the chassis.

Attached is a complete rundown and data file of the processes used, as well as video files and discussion logs if you should need to present them to the ilKhan at the next Quicksilver meeting.



Senior Scientist Greggor (Nansen).

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Takiro

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Re: Quicksilver Reconfiguration #3: Savage Coyote
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2018, 10:20:30 PM »

saKhan Elam Tchernokov,

You have done well my young protégé. Your decision to seek the role of junior Khan rather than senior was wise as evidenced by your election and subsequent successful defense. While the simulation we ran before hand did show that you had a chance to win the Khanship the margin for victory was very tight. Replacing me as saKhan of our Clan was far less glorious but wise as we can still undertake the necessary reforms to enable the Coyotes to thrive again.

My retirement to the Scientist Caste has not been without its difficulties and sometimes I wonder if former Khan Robin Steele’s decision to commit bondsref was not the better choice. For Warriors to outlive their battles is a tragedy and given our traditional customs I really cannot believe that I choose this path. But duty calls Elam and our Clan needed this reorganization desperately so here I am the Scientist-General. Reorganization of the Caste is proceeding at pace and I should have those lists of targets for your inspection soon.

These Scientist, Elam, lack focus among other things. Following their musing on ChatterWeb concerning our Savage Coyote caused me to take a closer look at the project. Quite correctly one designer has pointed to it as our premier Quicksilver effort but unlike other designs there seems to be little challenge. Preliminary plans went forward without debate as designers meekly followed established directives. This in stark contrast to this example below where a Nova Cat designer directly contested the ilKhan’s order.

https://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=45177;topic=3623.0;last_msg=45539

As a result of his actions parameters were altered and standards relaxed resulting in a better product for the Clans. Audacity like this should be noted positively not like the rebellious behavior we have recently had to deal with from some. We should Trial for that Scientist as he would be a welcomed addition to our labs rather than the current lot working on the Savage Coyote. Recently they have been talking about upgrading the Executioner rather than how we can make our latest creation the best it can possibly be.

While my personal design review shows that it is too late for EndoSteel which would have opened up even greater pod space a couple of things can be done before the process is complete.

1.   Removal of Fixed Double Heat Sinks. Four additional Double Heat Sinks were allotted to the base frame of the Savage Coyote which could still be removed with a minimum of design work. This would open up 49 tons of pod space for possible weapons and equipment. This proposal would be by far the easiest to undertake while making a number of variations possible.

2.   Armor Upgrades, Standard. Two different proposals which are now more difficult because of the late stages of our design process are also possible. One ton of standard armor plating can still be added increasing the overall protection afforded to this OmniMech. Factor would increase to an effective rating of 256 thanks to 16 tons of Forging ZK11.

3.   Armor Upgrades, Ferro-Fibrous. Protection option number two is even more radical than the first Elam replacing standard armor with advanced Ferro-Fibrous. This swap would be nearly identical to the one we executed for your Great Coyote which essentially upgraded the Dire Wolf. Tests reveal that 13.5 tons of Ferro-Fibrous would produce an effective rating of 259 with squandering surplus mass on armor. This generates one-and-a-half-ton savings over the current base model and together with the removal of Fixed Double Heat Sinks could open over 50 tons of pod space. This is identical to a Dire Wolf but internal space would be reduced.

Perhaps it was the recent crackdowns and disappearances that have intimidated the scientists from forwarding innovative proposals such as this. Fearing reprisals could have motivated the current atmosphere but those dissenters had to be removed for the good of our Clan. With the Scientists once more refocused I will try to move forward on this as soon as possible. I will keep you updated on our proposals.

Scientist-General Tain McTighe
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marauder648

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Re: Quicksilver Reconfiguration #3: Savage Coyote
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2018, 06:17:56 AM »

Really nice stuff Takiro :)
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Takiro

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Re: Quicksilver Reconfiguration #3: Savage Coyote
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2018, 06:36:39 AM »

You to marauder648!

Your in universe post about the Executioner and Bradshaw's earlier comments got me thinking that no buddy challenged the Savage Coyote here. It has four fixed Double Heat Sinks and is short on full armor protection plus none or very little of this OmniMech exist yet so where are the challenges here? Sort of throwing down the gauntlet to you designers in character. Plus I threw in a few more tidbits on the Coyotes.

So what do you guys think about revamping it? Any worth to these suggestions??
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